LOL! What is the point? posted by Augustus
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While it may feel deflating to see lots of points go away, it is all being done proportionally and has no affect on the rank. NGC simply felt the original point values don't quite correspond to the series. It's a little bit like dropping a few zeros off that Zimbabwean currency

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If you're only collecting coins so you can compete in these "artificial" arenas, then you may want to consider whether you're in the right hobby. I have read so many complaints about how the registry is doing this or that wrong -- but who cares honestly? Are you collecting coins or are you collecting registry points? (shrug)

 

Absolutely, what a great point. Without meaning to insult one's choices for collecting, I personally don't understand how many of these non-circulating bullion rounds are called 'coins' to begin with. I never considered US Pattern 'coinage' as real coins either- they are just something to hype, but they really aren't coins, even if they can be called numis related. Registry sets fill an important purpose for those of us who are so remote to a large city or big regional show- they allow us to view other's collections and show what we've worked so hard to assemble to others who are interested.

 

As to how this impacts serious collectors- I collect rare half eagles, and more than 40 of them have less than 100 pieces known to exist in all grades and conditions combined, yet many of them have relatively low points when compared to common coins made by the tens of thousands of which the entire 'mintage' grades MS68 or PR68 or above, with majorities of the mintage in perfect condition and none used or wasted. I have also begun assembling a gem comprehensive US Type Set and it is a joke how some common later date proofs are worth much more point wise that some of their classic superb gem counterparts that are without a doubt truly rare and few and far between. I don't get it and I doubt highly that there is any rhyme or reason in how each series point structure is set up, nor does there seem to be any way to justify the extremely high points given for some series when other obviously rarer series get lower overall points. I have spent a lot of time over the years running spreadsheets with special formulas based on my personal experience and research and the series I have worked on show me a much different picture than what the registry points here on NGC say. I don't know if PCGS has the same problem but I'm guessing they do.

 

To sum it up- it is a hobby of rare coins to me, and the points really don't matter to me or impress me, the coins are the focus and I couldn't care less if someone is wealthy enough to out-score me, all that matters is that I have the nicest specimens that I can afford in my sets and I have fun doing it. If I ever let other's business interests get in the way of my enjoyment of the hobby, I think instead of complaining, I'll just sell my sets and move on to another hobby that makes me happier. For now though I'm having the time of my life and couldn't be happier. Forget the points and have fun everyone, it's not supposed to make us feel bad!

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The only sight unseen market that will ever exist is for "widgets", whether for NCLT or common generics such as Morgan dollars and US type gold.

 

 

I agree. I was there when Wall Street got involved with slabbed coins because PCGS told them they could have a real trading platform. What happened? They didn't understand that it was a hobby and driven by collectors who KNOW that one MS65 or PR69 is not the same as another, that every slabbed coin has a broad trading range and it's true value is based almost entirely on it's eye appeal and personal preference, not the grade on the label or a quote on a trading system. They got in knee deep, realized they had been duped (mainly because of overgrading and how common Saints, Morgans, WL, buffalos, merc dimes and many of the rest really were) and dumped, causing the greatest drop in values we ever saw. MS65 Morgans were selling for $900 at the top, but just a year or so later they were trading for $90. What is telling is that they dragged down the entire rare coin market and provided us real collectors to buy some truly rare coins for fifty cents or less on the dollar, and those of us who were smart enough or fortunate enough to afford to buy them were handsomely rewarded, BUT, tens of thousands of speculators and investors lost their pants in the process.I see the exact same thing happening today with moderns and non circulating bullion issues- too many speculators and investors jumped in and many others got suckered into the grading and registry game and from my standpoint, the only people who will ever profit from these extremely common 'coins' are the dealers and TPGs. I see an exodus from this material, have for the past year or so, and while I hate to see anyone get slaughtered in their favorite hobby, I think we all reap what we sow. If we don't stop to think about value before we spend the money, I guess we deserve what we get. Maybe this time around many of them will convert from pseudo coins to truly rare obsolete gems where the true rarity is and the market won't fall accross the board but only in the overhyped modern series so that there is sanctuary in our beloved hobby for those of us who use our heads before our checkbooks...

 

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I agree that, in general, the points within a series need to be consistent with the relative scarcity of the coins within that series, and the actual point numbers should not matter outside of the series. One place where this breaks down is year sets, which include different denominations with wildly inconsistent variations between denominations. Case in point; the 1947 Mint set, where Roosevelt dimes in MS-67FT, with dozens of examples graded, were awarded well over 1000 points while MS-67FS Jefferson nickels with populations of 5 or so were awarded less than 200 points. Not a problem within the respective series, but really skews the numbers in year sets (the points for FS Jeffersons were modified a couple of years ago, and this isn't as much of an issue as it once was).

 

Still, Registry points don't enter into my thought process in building my collection, they are just a by-product of bulding and dsplaying sets.

 

as a type set collector this impacts greatly. Take a close look at how the points are awarded there- common seated dimes get outrageously high points but much rarer bust dimes and quarters get much lower points in relation. I could find many examples of this in nthe type arena, so NGC really needs to get their shoot together and use relativity to score coins, and it is a monumental task starting from present chaotic scores that I see listed out here. I'm just glad I don't care what they score so it doesn't take away from my collecting pleasure, but it does insult my intellectual sensibilities...

 

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Personally, I have a bunch of points but I don't buy coins by the number of points they garner. I use the number of points to give me an idea about the rarity of the coin relative to the series. For instance, I have 2 Capped Bust Half Dollars I am considering, one is an AU55 and the other is an AU53 for a different year. Seeing the points that each get do help me get an idea of its rarity. Combined with the census and historical auction prices generally complete the analysis on which to buy. That does not account of eye appeal though.

 

don't be foolish- the points are an opinion, and I often try to analyze and understand how they came to their conclusions, and I can't, at least not logically based on my 51 years in the hobby and all the research I have done over the years in each of the series I have collected. I see it all as a huge mish-mash, and every time they change one or a few scores in a series, it just makes them that much more out of skew with all the other coins in that series, and that series out of skew with other series. As I have mentioned, seated dimes get much higher scores in the type sets that do bust dimes or bust quarters, so please don't use the registry points to understand the relative rarity of busties- ask someone in the bust nut club or buy a copy of Herrman's auction records for busties, that is much more valuable in understanding rarity, and from there you can ascertain a coins true value by comparing to others in his publication. By the way- Steve Herrman lists every single Overton die pair in this guide, so while the guide may seem expensive (i think it about twenty bucks or so now), it is more valuable than a lifetime of personal experience because it is written by experts for experts in the series, and nothing can help a serious hobbyist more than expert help. Never trust a score on a registry over many years of true research from experts in their field, I promise you it won't end well...

 

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No, it does not.

 

The reason I raised these other points is because the issue (raised here once again) seems to be from the financial standpoint where the reduction in number of registry points either adversely or supposedly adversely impacts the market value. What I am telling those who hold this view is that its the equivalent of looking at the mole hill instead of the mountain.

 

If its really only about the collecting aspect, its overblown because NCLT and modern set collectors seem to have the biggest problem with it. But as usual, I suspect that it isn't. My advice to those who collect these sets and get bent out of shape with the registry point system is to rethink why they collect it. I'm about as positive as I can be that these sets at any substantial outlay are going to be almost guaranteed huge (proportionate) long term money losers and somehow, I don't think that fixing the point system is going to make them any happier about it.

 

very good point- no matter how many points you issue to common coins, they are still common coins, and many shouldn't even be called 'coins' because they aren't coins in my book unless they at least have a circulating counterpart, and even then it doesn't make them scarce or rare if the entire mintage gets slabbed and never deteriorates.

 

As has been mentioned by many in these forums- ANY of these sets can be bought by the dozen, in top grade, and all that is necessary to have a leading set is money and an agent tracking them down for you. But what are the bragging rights worth when you had to buy the win and have someone else do all the leg work for you? I personally can appreciate a collector spending a lifetime building a set of Lincoln cents from circulation more than someone with deep pockets who merely buys the bragging rights to a registry set. People who collect only truly rare obsolete coins will be rewarded for the exact reason modern collectors won't- great rarity is what causes great value, it's all comes down to the simple concept of supply and demand. I agree 100% with you that there will be a lot of teardrops in beer mugs when the modern markets are so overloaded with expensive but common issues that modern collectors leave en masse. I see the beginning of the end and it likely won't be long now.

 

My only concern is how they will impact the series I collect if a lot of them who dump their moderns and bullion slugs begin to buy real rare coins. I hope they don't cause mine to go up too much, I still have a long way to go to complete my type set! :/

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