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For those of you who love CAC...

216 posts in this topic

The "hot potato" scenario you outlined is an unfortunate part of the business, but has nothing to do with CAC. It applies to both non CAC, as well as CAC coins. It applies to just about any coin that has significant upside in terms of dollars.

 

You seem to want people to believe that on one hand, CAC doesn't tend to pay competitive prices, but that on the other hand, they do. You can't have it both ways.

 

Mark,

 

My reference to the "hot potato" scenario was to exhibit that dealers have found yet another piece of fluff (i.e., shiny green stickers) to help them in their quest to churn coins for profit.

 

As for CAC offering dealers competitive prices, I don't think that's the case. Many dealers often don't care about getting the best prices for their coins, they just need to move inventory. There are very few dealers who can survive by offering the best of the best coins, carrying a very small inventory, and waiting for someone to pay top dollar. For example, CRO is one that comes to mind. You were also formerly that type of dealer -- small inventory, but great quality. For the vast majority of coin dealers, they are fine selling their coins to CAC for CDN wholesale (even if it is the "CAC wholesale" that is slightly higher than regular CDN) because their goal is to move inventory.

 

Dealers selling to CAC isn't evidence of CAC offering great or even competitive buy prices. It's a quicker turn-over for dealers to sell coins to CAC en masse than dealing with the slow process of sending them to auction, lugging them around in cases to shows, or photographing them and posting them to their online sales sites.

 

The evidence I have seen suggests that CAC does not pay competitive prices to collectors who spend a great deal of time putting together collections of eye appealing and special coins. They may offer some liquidity benefit for dealers to move inventory fast, but that's not what I was talking about. So, no, I'm not having it both ways.

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HT has made many excellent points. His experience will differ from others.

 

Brandon, out of curiosity how many US coins do you own percentage wise to your overall collection?

 

mark

 

Until about 5.5 years ago, 100% of my collection was USA coinage. The shenanigans and slimey business tactics in the way USA coinage is hawked has really turned me off in the past 1.5 years or so, and I'm in the process of slowly selling off most all of my USA coins. As of now, I'd estimate about 15% of my ~800 slabbed coins are US coins.

 

That would have been my guess. Not a lot of skin in the game. Carry on

 

mark

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

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I try to enjoy the hobby regardless of some of the hucksters who take advantage of good trends, certification types (CAC, eagle eye, PQ approved) that lead to greater liquidity, less risk and greater flexibility for the more affluent along with some of the problems. Take what you like and leave the rest.

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The "hot potato" scenario you outlined is an unfortunate part of the business, but has nothing to do with CAC. It applies to both non CAC, as well as CAC coins. It applies to just about any coin that has significant upside in terms of dollars.

 

You seem to want people to believe that on one hand, CAC doesn't tend to pay competitive prices, but that on the other hand, they do. You can't have it both ways.

 

Mark,

 

My reference to the "hot potato" scenario was to exhibit that dealers have found yet another piece of fluff (i.e., shiny green stickers) to help them in their quest to churn coins for profit.

 

As for CAC offering dealers competitive prices, I don't think that's the case. Many dealers often don't care about getting the best prices for their coins, they just need to move inventory. There are very few dealers who can survive by offering the best of the best coins, carrying a very small inventory, and waiting for someone to pay top dollar. For example, CRO is one that comes to mind. You were also formerly that type of dealer -- small inventory, but great quality. For the vast majority of coin dealers, they are fine selling their coins to CAC for CDN wholesale (even if it is the "CAC wholesale" that is slightly higher than regular CDN) because their goal is to move inventory.

 

Dealers selling to CAC isn't evidence of CAC offering great or even competitive buy prices. It's a quicker turn-over for dealers to sell coins to CAC en masse than dealing with the slow process of sending them to auction, lugging them around in cases to shows, or photographing them and posting them to their online sales sites.

 

The evidence I have seen suggests that CAC does not pay competitive prices to collectors who spend a great deal of time putting together collections of eye appealing and special coins. They may offer some liquidity benefit for dealers to move inventory fast, but that's not what I was talking about. So, no, I'm not having it both ways.

 

Brandon, we have differing opinions on this subject and will have to agree to disagree. I am very confident that neither of us will sway the other and that's ok.

 

I am glad that this thread has remained civil and thank all of the participants for that.

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The "hot potato" scenario you outlined is an unfortunate part of the business, but has nothing to do with CAC. It applies to both non CAC, as well as CAC coins. It applies to just about any coin that has significant upside in terms of dollars.

 

You seem to want people to believe that on one hand, CAC doesn't tend to pay competitive prices, but that on the other hand, they do. You can't have it both ways.

 

Mark,

 

My reference to the "hot potato" scenario was to exhibit that dealers have found yet another piece of fluff (i.e., shiny green stickers) to help them in their quest to churn coins for profit.

 

As for CAC offering dealers competitive prices, I don't think that's the case. Many dealers often don't care about getting the best prices for their coins, they just need to move inventory. There are very few dealers who can survive by offering the best of the best coins, carrying a very small inventory, and waiting for someone to pay top dollar. For example, CRO is one that comes to mind. You were also formerly that type of dealer -- small inventory, but great quality. For the vast majority of coin dealers, they are fine selling their coins to CAC for CDN wholesale (even if it is the "CAC wholesale" that is slightly higher than regular CDN) because their goal is to move inventory.

 

Dealers selling to CAC isn't evidence of CAC offering great or even competitive buy prices. It's a quicker turn-over for dealers to sell coins to CAC en masse than dealing with the slow process of sending them to auction, lugging them around in cases to shows, or photographing them and posting them to their online sales sites.

 

The evidence I have seen suggests that CAC does not pay competitive prices to collectors who spend a great deal of time putting together collections of eye appealing and special coins. They may offer some liquidity benefit for dealers to move inventory fast, but that's not what I was talking about. So, no, I'm not having it both ways.

 

Brandon, we have differing opinions on this subject and will have to agree to disagree. I am very confident that neither of us will sway the other and that's ok.

 

I am glad that this thread has remained civil and thank all of the participants for that.

 

I agree to disagree Mark. I do like this frank discussion, and I appreciate your side of the story as a dealer with as many years experience in numismatics as I have years on this earth.

 

Thanks, Brandon

 

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No collectors, or anything else, would drive me away from commems I have collected for many years. You sound very unhappy.....

 

Quite the contrary. I have been infinitely happier since I stopped collecting USA coins. There is literally a whole world of other coins to collect...

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The "hot potato" scenario you outlined is an unfortunate part of the business, but has nothing to do with CAC. It applies to both non CAC, as well as CAC coins. It applies to just about any coin that has significant upside in terms of dollars.

 

You seem to want people to believe that on one hand, CAC doesn't tend to pay competitive prices, but that on the other hand, they do. You can't have it both ways.

 

Mark,

 

My reference to the "hot potato" scenario was to exhibit that dealers have found yet another piece of fluff (i.e., shiny green stickers) to help them in their quest to churn coins for profit.

 

As for CAC offering dealers competitive prices, I don't think that's the case. Many dealers often don't care about getting the best prices for their coins, they just need to move inventory. There are very few dealers who can survive by offering the best of the best coins, carrying a very small inventory, and waiting for someone to pay top dollar. For example, CRO is one that comes to mind. You were also formerly that type of dealer -- small inventory, but great quality. For the vast majority of coin dealers, they are fine selling their coins to CAC for CDN wholesale (even if it is the "CAC wholesale" that is slightly higher than regular CDN) because their goal is to move inventory.

 

Dealers selling to CAC isn't evidence of CAC offering great or even competitive buy prices. It's a quicker turn-over for dealers to sell coins to CAC en masse than dealing with the slow process of sending them to auction, lugging them around in cases to shows, or photographing them and posting them to their online sales sites.

 

The evidence I have seen suggests that CAC does not pay competitive prices to collectors who spend a great deal of time putting together collections of eye appealing and special coins. They may offer some liquidity benefit for dealers to move inventory fast, but that's not what I was talking about. So, no, I'm not having it both ways.

 

Brandon, we have differing opinions on this subject and will have to agree to disagree. I am very confident that neither of us will sway the other and that's ok.

 

I am glad that this thread has remained civil and thank all of the participants for that.

 

I agree to disagree Mark. I do like this frank discussion, and I appreciate your side of the story as a dealer with as many years experience in numismatics as I have years on this earth.

 

Thanks, Brandon

 

Calling me old, huh? :mad:

 

:D

 

;)

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HT has made many excellent points. His experience will differ from others.

 

Brandon, out of curiosity how many US coins do you own percentage wise to your overall collection?

 

mark

 

Until about 5.5 years ago, 100% of my collection was USA coinage. The shenanigans and slimey business tactics in the way USA coinage is hawked has really turned me off in the past 1.5 years or so, and I'm in the process of slowly selling off most all of my USA coins. As of now, I'd estimate about 15% of my ~800 slabbed coins are US coins.

 

That would have been my guess. Not a lot of skin in the game. Carry on

 

mark

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

 

Wow. I'm sure you think you are right. I think you are wrong. Can't believe you would let others dictate a collecting genre. Carry on. You are young and are allowed to change your mind later.

 

I collect both with equal zeal.

 

mark

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I have known John Albanese for about 35 years. During that time, the number of people I know who have talked to him or met him and had something negative to say about him could be counted on one hand. And yes, I'm sure there are others I'm not aware of.

 

The vast majority of his detractors (including those who are so certain it's all about the money for him) have neither spoken to him nor met him. That doesn't say it all, but it says a great deal.

 

Interesting points and I am not one of the detractors because like I said, I like to get his opinion, he is as good at grading as anyone out there and better than most anyone. I have learned a heck of alot from sending coins to CAC.

 

But I also understand the reality of the situation, it IS about the money. It is not about what kind of guy JA is, that never comes up. No question he is a nice guy from what folks say.

 

If it were not the money and making a market, why does CAC put in big letters on their home page -

 

'CAC Leaps Another Milestone While Leading the Charge! Purchased over $425,000,000.00 of coins!'

 

I guess that is why some of the 'detractors' raise the issues they do. JA is not purely altruistic, he did not start CAC with the idea that 'I am going to judge coins so that I can teach collectors what a strong coin for the grade is and I have no interest in making money on it' . Because he is making huge piles of money, that is the reason why CAC exists and if that went away, then CAC would cease to exist. If JA was in it simply for the collectors, then that quote above would not exist. Many out there do not like this fact, for whatever reasons they have and I have heard many. These 'detractors' are not concerned about what kind of guy JA is, they are concerned about how CAC is controlling the US coin market. Just sayin'. Personally I think it is a very astute buisness model and has obviously worked well for him.

 

Now the collector can learn alot from getting his opinion, no question and that is a collateral positive about what he is doing with CAC. And that aspect is also being marketed as well. hm

 

So what happens when JA stops doing CAC? What will the market be like post-CAC? Some 'detractors' are concerned about this.

 

Best, HT

 

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HT has made many excellent points. His experience will differ from others.

 

Brandon, out of curiosity how many US coins do you own percentage wise to your overall collection?

 

mark

 

Until about 5.5 years ago, 100% of my collection was USA coinage. The shenanigans and slimey business tactics in the way USA coinage is hawked has really turned me off in the past 1.5 years or so, and I'm in the process of slowly selling off most all of my USA coins. As of now, I'd estimate about 15% of my ~800 slabbed coins are US coins.

 

That would have been my guess. Not a lot of skin in the game. Carry on

 

mark

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

 

Wow. I'm sure you think you are right. I think you are wrong. Can't believe you would let others dictate a collecting genre. Carry on. You are young and are allowed to change your mind later.

 

I collect both with equal zeal.

 

mark

 

I'm 37, hardly young. I think you are only a few years older than me...but thanks for the condescending reply. ;) I can collect however I want Mark. I don't need your permission or approval...or patronizing head pat and comments about being "young"...

 

Carry on...

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It truly amazes me that some collectors have turned Mr. Albanese into the god of numismatics. I have never met anyone who is that perfect. I know from experience with his product that he isn't perfect, but sometimes perception is more important than reality.

 

No one man should have that much power over the market for a commodity. And perhaps if one man does have that much power maybe the time has come for prudent people to pull up stakes and get out and let him have it.

 

I don't want to do that because I have greatly enjoyed this hobby for many years. But it's started to look like a rigged game with one man in charge of it. No one else's expertise seems to matter any more.

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The "CDN wholesale" you refer to is often based on CAC bids. If the CAC bids weren't present, the CDN prices might be considerably lower. So bidding CDN prices isn't necessarily bidding low wholesale, as you seem to be implying. And non-CAC coins often sell at lower than CDN levels, many of them, considerably lower.

 

Then I think CDN's move to base its bid on CAC coins is misleading when the CDN typically was based on the sales of average coins for years and now it is suddenly based on the sale of ultra PQ coins only; it creates the false perception that the market is stronger than it really is.

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HT has made many excellent points. His experience will differ from others.

 

Brandon, out of curiosity how many US coins do you own percentage wise to your overall collection?

 

mark

 

Until about 5.5 years ago, 100% of my collection was USA coinage. The shenanigans and slimey business tactics in the way USA coinage is hawked has really turned me off in the past 1.5 years or so, and I'm in the process of slowly selling off most all of my USA coins. As of now, I'd estimate about 15% of my ~800 slabbed coins are US coins.

 

That would have been my guess. Not a lot of skin in the game. Carry on

 

mark

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

 

Wow. I'm sure you think you are right. I think you are wrong. Can't believe you would let others dictate a collecting genre. Carry on. You are young and are allowed to change your mind later.

 

I collect both with equal zeal.

 

mark

 

I'm 37, hardly young. I think you are only a few years older than me...but thanks for the condescending reply. ;) I can collect however I want Mark. I don't need your permission or approval...or patronizing head pat and comments about being "young"...

 

Carry on...

 

I wasn't patronizing you nor was I trying to be condescending. I can see why you read it that way though. I always reserve the right to change my mind to this day. The older you get the less likely are you to do so my experience. US coins will always be there if you choose to come back to them. Or not. You're a smart dude

 

mark

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Is that recently or historically? There have been threads more recently that have indicated that CAC refused to even make offers on some stickered coins.

 

On information and belief, there is more to the stories than suggested. There is a difference between refusing outright to make an offer and telling you that dealer XYZ will pay more than CAC will. The latter is just being decent.

 

With that said, there is no CAC "guarantee" and it has no legal obligation to make offers although it has historically done so. At least it is more forthright (IMHO) than PCGS offering a guarantee and seeking to amend it away later into oblivion. Nevertheless, it is important that collectors do understand that there is no CAC guarantee.

 

I also know of many people who have received generic white coin wholesale offers on superbly toned eye appealing coins. I have never heard anyone rave about how much money they made by selling their coins to CAC.

 

If you are selling widgets or coins with okay eye appeal that are not the tip top of the eye appeal scale, then it is possible in some cases to make more than you would if you consigned to auction historically after fees (but see the caveat in my other post).

 

With this said, you are spot on about toned coins. CAC admittedly will not pay up for additional eye appeal. IMHO, that is a flaw in his marketing paradigm, but that is his choice. I would never, ever attempt to sell a very eye appealing toned coin to CAC as I can almost guarantee that I can do better as a BIN-OBO on eBay with enough time.

 

IMHO, CAC's utility as applied to toned coins is very limited, although in some cases it may provide a CAC-dependent collector the confidence boost necessary to execute a transaction that John felt the toning was natural.

 

I agree about CAC not paying premiums over their regular bid prices for color coins which might bring large premiums elsewhere. However, the percentage of such coins which fall under this category is extremely small. So people can pick on them all they want for that, while ignoring the typically strong prices they pay for the the large majority of non-premium color coins.

 

I am in no way picking on CAC or bashing JA personally. I am merely commenting on a trend that I have observed for several type coins, and I do think some of it is due to falling market prices; however, it seems like JA's correction took place more rapidly than the market appeared to drop to me in the corresponding time frame. Maybe my perception is distorted.

 

In any event, offering lower prices isn't a criticism; it is a wise business move on his part. I too have become far more conservative in my buying habits in this awful market and would be a hypocrite to criticize him for doing the same. With that said, when it comes to me selling, my sole concern is the return on my investment. To that end, I do think my comments were accurate as to the coins that consist of the core of my collection. Exceptionally toned coins was one of the niches that I actively pursued before I more or less stopped buying except for rare pieces that I feel are irreplaceable or virtually irreplaceable.

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It truly amazes me that some collectors have turned Mr. Albanese into the god of numismatics. I have never met anyone who is that perfect. I know from experience with his product that he isn't perfect, but sometimes perception is more important than reality.

 

No one man should have that much power over the market for a commodity. And perhaps if one man does have that much power maybe the time has come for prudent people to pull up stakes and get out and let him have it.

 

I don't want to do that because I have greatly enjoyed this hobby for many years. But it's started to look like a rigged game with one man in charge of it. No one else's expertise seems to matter any more.

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

 

I think many are unfairly putting the blame on CAC, JA, or the TPGs, but I don't think that is fair, and what we are seeing appears to be an unintended consequence. One of the real problems appears to be that many collectors, and even dealers, no longer know what they are doing and instead rely on the services to tell them what is nice and how to grade. Go to a regional show and offer a few coins for sale - you won't believe the number of dealers that merely look at the label and the Greysheet without even taking a close look at the piece as if coins are commodities that can be traded like stocks based on an index. When you see large factions of plastic sycophants or sticker fans that refuse to even look at other coins, I think that too tells you something.

 

It is disconcerting when you can have a nice coin that is in a NGC holder (or maybe even in an old ANACS holder, ICG holder, raw, etc.), and price it fairly and it will languish for months. You can cross the coin over at or near grade to PCGS and have CAC sticker it, and magically it becomes worth many multiples of what you were asking before and there are a number of collectors suddenly willing to throw fistfuls of money at you. The coin itself hasn't changed. To be sure, the crack out game is nothing new, but I have seen far too many coins upgrade multiple points from one service to another and both times receiving the same green sticker from CAC. And if the NGC only or PCGS only mentality weren't bad enough, it seems that this is no longer good enough. To obtain liquidity in this market, it appears that it must also be CAC stickered or you will lose entire cohorts of potential buyers.

 

Many opine that coin doctoring is the major concern to the hobby; I disagree. I think this sheep like mentality of many collectors, grade inflation/TPG inconsistentcy, and the weakening of the guarantee (the TPGS brought money in and will quickly lose it if they continue to amend their guarantees into oblivion) are more serious threats to the long term health and stability of this hobby IMHO. When you throw in dealer behavior (hiring actors to overhype a coin and then selling a $1200 gold slug for $100k) and consider that certain companies no longer honor their word/guarantee, the coin market is beginning to remind me more and more of Wall Street before the 2008 collapse.

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Is that recently or historically? There have been threads more recently that have indicated that CAC refused to even make offers on some stickered coins.

 

On information and belief, there is more to the stories than suggested. There is a difference between refusing outright to make an offer and telling you that dealer XYZ will pay more than CAC will. The latter is just being decent.

 

With that said, there is no CAC "guarantee" and it has no legal obligation to make offers although it has historically done so. At least it is more forthright (IMHO) than PCGS offering a guarantee and seeking to amend it away later into oblivion. Nevertheless, it is important that collectors do understand that there is no CAC guarantee.

 

I also know of many people who have received generic white coin wholesale offers on superbly toned eye appealing coins. I have never heard anyone rave about how much money they made by selling their coins to CAC.

 

If you are selling widgets or coins with okay eye appeal that are not the tip top of the eye appeal scale, then it is possible in some cases to make more than you would if you consigned to auction historically after fees (but see the caveat in my other post).

 

With this said, you are spot on about toned coins. CAC admittedly will not pay up for additional eye appeal. IMHO, that is a flaw in his marketing paradigm, but that is his choice. I would never, ever attempt to sell a very eye appealing toned coin to CAC as I can almost guarantee that I can do better as a BIN-OBO on eBay with enough time.

 

IMHO, CAC's utility as applied to toned coins is very limited, although in some cases it may provide a CAC-dependent collector the confidence boost necessary to execute a transaction that John felt the toning was natural.

 

I agree about CAC not paying premiums over their regular bid prices for color coins which might bring large premiums elsewhere. However, the percentage of such coins which fall under this category is extremely small. So people can pick on them all they want for that, while ignoring the typically strong prices they pay for the the large majority of non-premium color coins.

 

I am in no way picking on CAC or bashing JA personally. I am merely commenting on a trend that I have observed for several type coins, and I do think some of it is due to falling market prices; however, it seems like JA's correction took place more rapidly than the market appeared to drop to me in the corresponding time frame. Maybe my perception is distorted.

 

In any event, offering lower prices isn't a criticism; it is a wise business move on his part. I too have become far more conservative in my buying habits in this awful market and would be a hypocrite to criticize him for doing the same. With that said, when it comes to me selling, my sole concern is the return on my investment. To that end, I do think my comments were accurate as to the coins that consist of the core of my collection. Exceptionally toned coins was one of the niches that I actively pursued before I more or less stopped buying except for rare pieces that I feel are irreplaceable or virtually irreplaceable.

 

To be clear, my comments weren't directed at you. I think of you as the consummate polite, fair minded and reasonable poster.

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Is that recently or historically? There have been threads more recently that have indicated that CAC refused to even make offers on some stickered coins.

 

On information and belief, there is more to the stories than suggested. There is a difference between refusing outright to make an offer and telling you that dealer XYZ will pay more than CAC will. The latter is just being decent.

 

With that said, there is no CAC "guarantee" and it has no legal obligation to make offers although it has historically done so. At least it is more forthright (IMHO) than PCGS offering a guarantee and seeking to amend it away later into oblivion. Nevertheless, it is important that collectors do understand that there is no CAC guarantee.

 

I also know of many people who have received generic white coin wholesale offers on superbly toned eye appealing coins. I have never heard anyone rave about how much money they made by selling their coins to CAC.

 

If you are selling widgets or coins with okay eye appeal that are not the tip top of the eye appeal scale, then it is possible in some cases to make more than you would if you consigned to auction historically after fees (but see the caveat in my other post).

 

With this said, you are spot on about toned coins. CAC admittedly will not pay up for additional eye appeal. IMHO, that is a flaw in his marketing paradigm, but that is his choice. I would never, ever attempt to sell a very eye appealing toned coin to CAC as I can almost guarantee that I can do better as a BIN-OBO on eBay with enough time.

 

IMHO, CAC's utility as applied to toned coins is very limited, although in some cases it may provide a CAC-dependent collector the confidence boost necessary to execute a transaction that John felt the toning was natural.

 

I agree about CAC not paying premiums over their regular bid prices for color coins which might bring large premiums elsewhere. However, the percentage of such coins which fall under this category is extremely small. So people can pick on them all they want for that, while ignoring the typically strong prices they pay for the the large majority of non-premium color coins.

 

I am in no way picking on CAC or bashing JA personally. I am merely commenting on a trend that I have observed for several type coins, and I do think some of it is due to falling market prices; however, it seems like JA's correction took place more rapidly than the market appeared to drop to me in the corresponding time frame. Maybe my perception is distorted.

 

In any event, offering lower prices isn't a criticism; it is a wise business move on his part. I too have become far more conservative in my buying habits in this awful market and would be a hypocrite to criticize him for doing the same. With that said, when it comes to me selling, my sole concern is the return on my investment. To that end, I do think my comments were accurate as to the coins that consist of the core of my collection. Exceptionally toned coins was one of the niches that I actively pursued before I more or less stopped buying except for rare pieces that I feel are irreplaceable or virtually irreplaceable.

 

To be clear, my comments weren't directed at you. I think of you as the consummate polite, fair minded and reasonable poster.

 

:sumo:

 

I will be sending you a copy of my private notes titled "How To Respond To Pharmer Opinions". :sumo:

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HT has made many excellent points. His experience will differ from others.

 

Brandon, out of curiosity how many US coins do you own percentage wise to your overall collection?

 

mark

 

Until about 5.5 years ago, 100% of my collection was USA coinage. The shenanigans and slimey business tactics in the way USA coinage is hawked has really turned me off in the past 1.5 years or so, and I'm in the process of slowly selling off most all of my USA coins. As of now, I'd estimate about 15% of my ~800 slabbed coins are US coins.

 

That would have been my guess. Not a lot of skin in the game. Carry on

 

mark

 

Yes, and the mentality of helpless, spoon-fed, CAC-A-phile USA collectors is one of the reasons why I have gotten out of the USA coin game. It's just that, a game. Carry on...

 

Wow. I'm sure you think you are right. I think you are wrong. Can't believe you would let others dictate a collecting genre. Carry on. You are young and are allowed to change your mind later.

 

I collect both with equal zeal.

 

mark

 

I'm 37, hardly young. I think you are only a few years older than me...but thanks for the condescending reply. ;) I can collect however I want Mark. I don't need your permission or approval...or patronizing head pat and comments about being "young"...

 

Carry on...

 

In my opinion you are both young. :preach:

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It's only your wrong perception, that collectors have turned John into a God. Everyone knows John is not perfect. No body ever said he was, although you kept saying people were claiming it. If 1 man controls the market, thank God it's John and not some crook.

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Different grade opinion of the same coin is the problem CAC was established to solve. Are you saying CAC is also inconsistent in their grading opinions? Because that's worse than making a mistake, in my opinion.

 

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Different grade opinion of the same coin is the problem CAC was established to solve. Are you saying CAC is also inconsistent in their grading opinions? Because that's worse than making a mistake, in my opinion.

 

That is not the reason the entity was formed. An in depth explanation and discussion of the formation is ATS, from many years ago. I assume it is still there to view, I don't know.

 

Your interpretation of what I stated is your interpretation, and certainly you can have an opinion the same as everyone else. I would think it is more logical to separate subjective from objective, when describing something as a "mistake", especially in a climate of market grading. The very nature of offering an opinion that relies on physical and knowledge factors and ability, that varies from person to person, counters any assumption of logical conclusion of determining an opinion is a mistake.

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Everyone knows John is not perfect.

 

I think that you believe he's perfect. Even when people with considerable experice point out a CAC mistake, you used the lame argument that no one can detect a very weak strike from a photograph. Are you one of those dealers who is basing his business model around CAC stickers? It sure seems like it.

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NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

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I've followed most of this thread. I agree with some of it, but find it fascinating that people go nuts about a singe statistical outlier in a system of subjective variables.

 

In actuality, it would be very odd indeed if this sort of thing didn't happen from time to time.

 

It almost seems like some people believe that coins actually have a concrete, definitive grade. When a paid professional's opinion departs from this ABSOLUTE GRADE, it's time to get the pitchforks out. It doesn't work that way. Grades are nothing more than a limited, shorthand appraisal of a coin that is subject to the whims and foibles of the human condition. Even very good graders have percentage of bad calls. Same with umpires. Same with surgeons. Same with pilots and every other human endeavor. Not every Picasso was a masterpiece.

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I'm kind of wondering why this is a thread about CAC. Seems to me this should be directed at PCGS. hm

 

jom

 

 

 

 

Exactly!

 

This thread casts the "professional graders" and PCGS grading standards in general in a far more laughable light than it does CAC in my opinion.

 

I wonder how the person who paid the nearly $3K price tag for it feels about the previous PCGS grade/selling price?

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NO, time and time again you have been told John is not perfect. Please stop it! I said you cant grade from a photo and there are more important things than strike. HA, I am not a dealer, so NO business model.

 

Who told Bill that John is not perfect? I don't recall any thread here or there that explicitly used those words and directed them to Bill.

 

One of the issues that has come up in discussions with some of the 'informed numismatists' who are detractors as Mr. Feld would call them. In economic history, when one entity controls a market, it leads to collapse or quality degradation. This happens over and over and over. Hence, this blind faith in CAC that allows them to control the market, without any other competitors, is probably not a healthy, long-term scenario for the collector.

 

Independent of the market domination, as much as I like getting a CAC opinion on my coins, I am not sure that we wouldn't be better off with out them - the informed numismatist would benefit more by his/her accrued knowledge. With CAC around, which is pretty good at picking out the better coins, it makes it easy on those who don't learn to grade and understand surfaces. Alot of the advantage of having knowledge is removed.

 

Best, HT

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