5 Oz ATB LIGHT FINISH(SATIN) Designation 1 1

[Iluvbullion]

Hi gang..been awhile since I chimmed in here...I used to do a lot of 5 Oz ATB 25c coins, especially the rare(except 2010-P Grand Canyon, with over 392 graded) Light Finish Coins. NGC USED to recognize 5 of these, and, I was responsible for having them even add the OLYMPIC Light Satin(satin finish, PCGS), to the mix, after my discovery coin was found in 2014.

The folks at NGC took out, I believe, all but Hot Springs and Grand Canyon in the registry set..please correct me if I am wrong....I was THE only member with all 5 coins registered at the time, then, 1 day, my score dropped, as NGC took Yellowstone, Gettysburg, and, Olympic OFF the registry Must Have list, mumbling something aboyt "too rare to find, so, we decided to nix it"...I THOUGHT making a true registry COMPLETE set included any and ALL known varieties...

These are legitimate rare coins, with big money values(A 2011-P Gettysburg PCGS SP69 First Strike was sold for $7,500 in 2014, and, an similar Olympic Light Satin sold for $2,500---I paid $2,700 for a Hot Springs Light Satin, and, used it as my "qualifier coin, to study the finish, and, compare finishes on other ATB's.)--(and, would be even higher, if both PCGS and NGC included ALL of them in their registry sets)...are we not, as collectors, supposed to be able to make the call on whether to spend funds on rare coins, to make a true complete set? This should not be a political issue, or, a "too hard to find" issue for determining a set, which, it appears it is, if I am correct. IF all 5 known coins WERE in the registry set, NGC would make MORE money as people sent coins in for reconsideration, and grading!

So, will someone current and top dog with 5 Oz ATB's, fill me in on what is the latest on Light Finish Coins in the NGC ATB registry status? Did anybody get anywhere convincing NGC to re-add the 3 coins? Or, are they staying put, and, discriminating against us collectors still?

An example for me, would be the mercury dime registry set..does NGC have the 1916-D as a "must have" coin? Or, is that considered "too hard to find" also?

IMHO, if NGC does NOT allow ALL known issues of a denomination into a complete registry set, with varieties, then, they are doing a huge disservice to the collecting community, and, shame on them, as it is NOT a TRUE COMPLETE SET!

Got THAT off my chest, didn't I?

CG

Edited May 25, 2016 by Ali E.

[Iluvbullion]

I just looked at the composite..looks like ONLY the 2010 P Grand Canyon is included in the set, and given points. NGC, you REALLY make yourselves look unprofessional by doing this. MAN UP, and make it a COMPLETE set.

[Ali E.]

Hello, grunny/CG.

 

Thank you for your feedback and interest. The team decision that was made back in 2014 currently remains the same. We've included the Light Finish Grand Canyon for nearly six years, and there are enough examples certified by NGC to justify including it. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded 392 total, with 8 NGC graded as 70's.

 

Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are not included in the NGC Competitive Registry. The NGC pop. numbers for those have not changed. Those two Light Finish varieties have only a handful of examples as NGC-graded. The Hot Springs LF only has two out of 23 total NGC graded as 70's. The Yellowstone LF has only 5 total NGC graded with the highest grade of 68. We believe that it would not be fair to make them a requirement for every participant. Thank you.

 

 

Edited May 25, 2016 by Ali E.

[jrcoins2210]

I also had the Light finish sp70 Hot Springs removed . Along with my Light finish Yellowstone SP68 ..... So I removed the entire set from the listings. Why bother if they will only recognize some light finish ,but not others. 1st place is now 2nd place and 2nd place is now 1st place. Sounds like the new America dose it not ?

[CCFFG]

On 5/25/2016 at 9:28 AM, Ali E. said:

Hello, grunny/CG.

 

Thank you for your feedback and interest. The team decision that was made back in 2014 currently remains the same. We've included the Light Finish Grand Canyon for nearly six years, and there are enough examples certified by NGC to justify including it. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded 392 total, with 8 NGC graded as 70's.

 

Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are not included in the NGC Competitive Registry. The NGC pop. numbers for those have not changed. Those two Light Finish varieties have only a handful of examples as NGC-graded. The Hot Springs LF only has two out of 23 total NGC graded as 70's. The Yellowstone LF has only 5 total NGC graded with the highest grade of 68. We believe that it would not be fair to make them a requirement for every participant. Thank you.

 

 

This response is really absurd. Team decision?  As it stands now only 8 sets are available for TOP SET.  At one time other Light Finishes were available in the set.  THIS NEEDS CORRECTION.  I recommend that the LIGHT FINISH GRAND CANYON be removed from the basic set and new sets be added.  One set could include all the LIGHT FINISH VARIETIES.  Another set could include ONLY the Grand Canyon Light Finish (maybe call this set the NGC special BS set--illustrating how absurd it is to argue about arbitrary accessibilty in collecting).

[CCFFG]

I think the NGC needs to review their definitions and their approach to registry sets to create a real competition. 

(1)  There are competitive sets that state "with varieties" but only include different labels on the holders with no difference in the actual coin.  The varieties, as officially defined and listed by NGC are ignored.  As an example, the 2007 Frosted Freedom American Platinum $25, $50, and $100 Eagles are listed as VARIETIES.  The set competition that adds "with Varieties" includes two versions of the 2007 $25 issue (a reverse proof and regular proof were released together in a set).  There is no difference between the $25 regular coins in any of the 3 releases except for possible labels.

(2)  Regarding complaints about the ATB 5 oz SP sets including only a single issues LIGHT FINISH COIN (Grand Canyon) the NGC response is really absurd. Team decision?  As it stands now only 8 sets are available for TOP SET.  At one time other Light Finishes were available in the set.  THIS NEEDS CORRECTION.  I recommend that the LIGHT FINISH GRAND CANYON be removed from the basic set and new sets be added.  One set could include all the LIGHT FINISH VARIETIES.  Another set could include ONLY the Grand Canyon Light Finish (maybe call this set the NGC special BS set--illustrating how absurd it is to argue about arbitrary accessibilty in collecting).

I hope NGC will take the time and effort to properly address these issues.  I see all the effort to add foreign sets.  If the US collector is not to serviced I see further reductions in the collector ranks.

[Morpheus1967]

On 5/25/2016 at 12:28 PM, Ali E. said:

Hello, grunny/CG.

 

Thank you for your feedback and interest. The team decision that was made back in 2014 currently remains the same. We've included the Light Finish Grand Canyon for nearly six years, and there are enough examples certified by NGC to justify including it. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded 392 total, with 8 NGC graded as 70's.

 

Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are not included in the NGC Competitive Registry. The NGC pop. numbers for those have not changed. Those two Light Finish varieties have only a handful of examples as NGC-graded. The Hot Springs LF only has two out of 23 total NGC graded as 70's. The Yellowstone LF has only 5 total NGC graded with the highest grade of 68. We believe that it would not be fair to make them a requirement for every participant. Thank you.

 

 

This simply does not make any sense.  I am going to use an example I am familiar with.  You have, as part of the Niue 2016 $2 proof set, and also the 2014 Disney set, all (5) coins from the Finding Dory set.  This despite the fact that only (6) of each coin have even been graded.  Yet you keep these in the respective sets I just named?  I have no issue with it, just curious where you draw the line?  Thanks.  

 

 

[Morpheus1967]

Just want to reiterate that I like the fact that the hardly graded coins are listed as part of the registry sets.  The coins are out there to be had.  Just have to look for them.  Thanks again.

[Ali E.]

On 4/27/2018 at 4:17 PM, CCFFG said:

I think the NGC needs to review their definitions and their approach to registry sets to create a real competition. 

(1)  There are competitive sets that state "with varieties" but only include different labels on the holders with no difference in the actual coin.  The varieties, as officially defined and listed by NGC are ignored.  As an example, the 2007 Frosted Freedom American Platinum $25, $50, and $100 Eagles are listed as VARIETIES.  The set competition that adds "with Varieties" includes two versions of the 2007 $25 issue (a reverse proof and regular proof were released together in a set).  There is no difference between the $25 regular coins in any of the 3 releases except for possible labels.

(2)  Regarding complaints about the ATB 5 oz SP sets including only a single issues LIGHT FINISH COIN (Grand Canyon) the NGC response is really absurd. Team decision?  As it stands now only 8 sets are available for TOP SET.  At one time other Light Finishes were available in the set.  THIS NEEDS CORRECTION.  I recommend that the LIGHT FINISH GRAND CANYON be removed from the basic set and new sets be added.  One set could include all the LIGHT FINISH VARIETIES.  Another set could include ONLY the Grand Canyon Light Finish (maybe call this set the NGC special BS set--illustrating how absurd it is to argue about arbitrary accessibilty in collecting).

I hope NGC will take the time and effort to properly address these issues.  I see all the effort to add foreign sets.  If the US collector is not to serviced I see further reductions in the collector ranks.

Hello, CCFG.

We are constantly assessing set structure in the NGC Registry to ensure we offer a variety of collecting options. Our team has concluded that with three master sets, one for MS, one for Specimen, and one for Complete, and with the individual year sets for every year of mintage, the ATB coins are sufficiently represented in the NGC Registry at this point in time.

For the Light Finish coin decision that was made four years ago, this decision currently stands. The population numbers have changed very little since then. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded a few more with a pop 8 of 396 as 70's. For the Hot Springs LF, we have only pop 2 of 24 total as 70's. For the Yellowstone LF, we have a total pop of 5 coins graded, all graded MS68. Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are non-competitive in the NGC Registry. If our population numbers change greatly in the future, we can revisit this.

In reference to the Frosted Freedom coins, to exactly which NGC Registry set are you referring? Also, are you referring to 2007 Platinum $50 coins, not $25? If you wish, you may also reach us via email at registry@ngccoin.com. 

Thank you for your feedback and interest.

 

 

[Ali E.]

1 hour ago, Morpheus1967 said:

This simply does not make any sense.  I am going to use an example I am familiar with.  You have, as part of the Niue 2016 $2 proof set, and also the 2014 Disney set, all (5) coins from the Finding Dory set.  This despite the fact that only (6) of each coin have even been graded.  Yet you keep these in the respective sets I just named?  I have no issue with it, just curious where you draw the line?  Thanks.  

 

 

Thank you for the feedback, Morpheus.

A decision to include a slot in an NGC Registry set is made on a case-by-case basis. A variety of factors are taken into consideration, including mintage, NGC population, availability in the marketplace, and price in relation to other coins offered in the set. If you have any questions, you may reach us at registry@ngccoin.com. Thank you.

[CCFFG]

I would like to reply to Ali E.'s comments for April 27, 2018  inserted in the response below:

We are constantly assessing set structure in the NGC Registry to ensure we offer a variety of collecting options. Our team has concluded that with three master sets, one for MS, one for Specimen, and one for Complete, and with the individual year sets for every year of mintage, the ATB coins are sufficiently represented in the NGC Registry at this point in time.

For the Light Finish coin decision that was made four years ago, this decision currently stands. The population numbers have changed very little since then. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded a few more with a pop 8 of 396 as 70's. For the Hot Springs LF, we have only pop 2 of 24 total as 70's. For the Yellowstone LF, we have a total pop of 5 coins graded, all graded MS68. Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are non-competitive in the NGC Registry. If our population numbers change greatly in the future, we can revisit this. (POPULATION numbers versus LOGIC???  This makes no sense to me.  Let's extend this to the Presidential $ set where only 3 coins have been graded as PF 70 for the Reverse Proof Johnson.  Following your teams ridiculous logic where only 3 coins are currently possible this listing should be eliminated from the set competition until more coins are discovered.  The reference to a TEAM decision adds little the rationale.   Maybe the bias to list only one issue of the LIGHT FINISH stems from Scott's listing of only Grand Canyon coin in his later editions of the books on the 100 Greatest US Modern Coins.  I think NGC should be embarrassed to have this issue addressed in the national coin publications.)

In reference to the Frosted Freedom coins, to exactly which NGC Registry set are you referring? Also, are you referring to 2007 Platinum $50 coins, not $25? If you wish, you may also reach us via email at registry@ngccoin.com. (These coins are listed in Scott's books : 3rd and 4th Editions.  I am referring to $25, $50, and $100 coins as listed as Varieties in the NGC database.  By not listing these coins you may be delaying the discovery of additional specimens.  Coin World does not list these in their pricing database while Numismatic News lists a value for only the $100 specimen at $47,000.  Will this result in future IRA 2007 Pt sets sold to dealers for Pt melt? )

Edited May 1, 2018 by dena
removed inappropriate text

[Ali E.]

9 hours ago, CCFFG said:

I would like to reply to Ali E.'s comments for April 27, 2018  inserted in the response below:

We are constantly assessing set structure in the NGC Registry to ensure we offer a variety of collecting options. Our team has concluded that with three master sets, one for MS, one for Specimen, and one for Complete, and with the individual year sets for every year of mintage, the ATB coins are sufficiently represented in the NGC Registry at this point in time.

For the Light Finish coin decision that was made four years ago, this decision currently stands. The population numbers have changed very little since then. For the Grand Canyon LF coins, we have graded a few more with a pop 8 of 396 as 70's. For the Hot Springs LF, we have only pop 2 of 24 total as 70's. For the Yellowstone LF, we have a total pop of 5 coins graded, all graded MS68. Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are non-competitive in the NGC Registry. If our population numbers change greatly in the future, we can revisit this. (POPULATION numbers versus LOGIC???  This makes no sense to me.  Let's extend this to the Presidential $ set where only 3 coins have been graded as PF 70 for the Reverse Proof Johnson.  Following your teams ridiculous logic where only 3 coins are currently possible this listing should be eliminated from the set competition until more coins are discovered.  The reference to a TEAM decision adds little the rationale.   Maybe the bias to list only one issue of the LIGHT FINISH stems from Scott's listing of only Grand Canyon coin in his later editions of the books on the 100 Greatest US Modern Coins.  I think NGC should be embarrassed to have this issue addressed in the national coin publications.)

In reference to the Frosted Freedom coins, to exactly which NGC Registry set are you referring? Also, are you referring to 2007 Platinum $50 coins, not $25? If you wish, you may also reach us via email at registry@ngccoin.com. (These coins are listed in Scott's books : 3rd and 4th Editions.  I am referring to $25, $50, and $100 coins as listed as Varieties in the NGC database.  By not listing these coins you may be delaying the discovery of additional specimens.  Coin World does not list these in their pricing database while Numismatic News lists a value for only the $100 specimen at $47,000.  Will this result in future IRA 2007 Pt sets sold to dealers for Pt melt? )

In reference to your Frosted Freedom statement: "I am referring to $25, $50, and $100 coins as listed as Varieties in the NGC database.  By not listing these coins you may be delaying the discovery of additional specimens."

The three platinum coins, $25, $50,and $100 are listed/available slots in editions 2, 3, and 4 of the "100 Greatest US Modern Coins" NGC Registry sets on the Collector Society website. They are coins 13A, B, and C in those sets. This variety is not listed in the regular platinum eagle NGC Registry sets because we have only graded one of each at this point in time.

If you are referring to coin grading/submissions of the platinum Frosted Freedom coins, all three are listed under our Variety Plus grading service and may be seen on the www.ngccoin.com website. NGC Customer Service can assist with questions along those lines at service@ngccoin.com.

If you need further NGC Registry clarification, feel free to call us at 1-800-642-2646 or email at registry@ngccoin.com. Thank you.

[jrcoins2210]

NGC removed  my SP 70 light finish 5 0z. Hot springs and my SP 68 light finish 5 oz Yellowstone.  I had the true number 1 set till someone started crying they were no longer #1 ..... A FAKE contest for sure !

[Richie Kiraly]

I was just wondering, if NGC would consider giving the light finish coins an appropriate point value that would better reflect the coins true worth.

They may not need to be required,  but to have them as an option would better reflect the coins them self.

[Ali E.]

On 11/2/2019 at 10:13 PM, Richie Kiraly said:

I was just wondering, if NGC would consider giving the light finish coins an appropriate point value that would better reflect the coins true worth.

They may not need to be required,  but to have them as an option would better reflect the coins them self.

Hello and thank you for the request.

We will begin updating all coins in the America the Beautiful 5 Ounce Coins, 2010-Date, Complete set after the annual awards period has passed. Please let us know when we may assist next.

[CCFFG]

I am asking this topic be reviewed again by NGC staff.  Since NGC reversed the position on inclusion of PCGS  coins in competitive sets maybe now is the time to change the position to include all the "Light Finish" varieties.  The ATB 5 oz series is set for completion in early 2021 and NOW would be the time to correct this INCONSISTENT POSITION.  Another approach would be to add competitive sets that do not include the VARIETIES. But, of course a collector could ask for the addition sets that include ALL VARIETIES.  If this would occur there would be three groups of sets : 1.) NO Varietires, 2.) ONE variety and 3.) ALL varieties. (Which clearly demonstrates the lack of logic for the current setup.)

Also, the CENSUS database for the 5 oz ATB coins includes MS 70 coins.  I believe these are errors from the 25c quarters.  If I am in error please present show me photo of a graded MS 70 coin listed in the census.  If you cannot provide a photo PLEASE FIX these numbers.

[Ali E.]

59 minutes ago, CCFFG said:

I am asking this topic be reviewed again by NGC staff.  Since NGC reversed the position on inclusion of PCGS  coins in competitive sets maybe now is the time to change the position to include all the "Light Finish" varieties.  The ATB 5 oz series is set for completion in early 2021 and NOW would be the time to correct this INCONSISTENT POSITION.  Another approach would be to add competitive sets that do not include the VARIETIES. But, of course a collector could ask for the addition sets that include ALL VARIETIES.  If this would occur there would be three groups of sets : 1.) NO Varietires, 2.) ONE variety and 3.) ALL varieties. (Which clearly demonstrates the lack of logic for the current setup.)

Also, the CENSUS database for the 5 oz ATB coins includes MS 70 coins.  I believe these are errors from the 25c quarters.  If I am in error please present show me photo of a graded MS 70 coin listed in the census.  If you cannot provide a photo PLEASE FIX these numbers.

Hello and thank you for your interest.

The decision years ago about the Light Finish varieties remains the same. For questions about our census, please contact Customer Service at service@NGCcoin.com. Please let us know when we may assist in the future with the NGC Registry.

[CCFFG]

I reviewed the earlier comments regarding this issue and now request that the senior management of NGC review this matter.  The decision on the inclusion of PCGS coins in competitive sets was changed.  If a mistake was made in the early years it can now be corrected.  The point I am trying to make is that the set is nearing completion and I want to be sure NGC will give this issue a reasonable review.  My coin collection has been a useful distraction during the Pandemic we all have to experience.  But, issues causing me distress from the US Mint along with NGC's irrational approach to some of the competitive sets will force me to examine my future in numismatics.

[Ali E.]

On 5/17/2020 at 2:21 AM, CCFFG said:

I reviewed the earlier comments regarding this issue and now request that the senior management of NGC review this matter.  The decision on the inclusion of PCGS coins in competitive sets was changed.  If a mistake was made in the early years it can now be corrected.  The point I am trying to make is that the set is nearing completion and I want to be sure NGC will give this issue a reasonable review.  My coin collection has been a useful distraction during the Pandemic we all have to experience.  But, issues causing me distress from the US Mint along with NGC's irrational approach to some of the competitive sets will force me to examine my future in numismatics.

Thank you for your feedback and interest.

The senior team has reviewed this request, and the decision remains the same. Due to their rarity, the Hot Springs LF SP and Yellowstone LF SP coins are still included in the NGC Competitive Registry as "non-competitive; for display, only." The NGC pop. numbers for those have not changed in the past 10 years. Those two Light Finish varieties have only a handful of examples as NGC-graded. The Hot Springs LF still only has 2 out of 23 total NGC graded as 70's as of May 2020 (PCGS pop 3.) The Yellowstone LF still has only 5 total NGC graded with the highest grade of 68 as of May 2020. We maintain that it would not be fair to make them a requirement for every participant. Thank you and let us know when we may assist in the future.