Cherry picking by major dealers? Are we going to have to pay a ransom?
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I know this happens and i have heard of large dealers cherry picking through tubes of new releases for grading and shipping out the rejects but this is my first experience seeing myself. Last week i received my first 2 tubes of 2016 libertads with the intention of submitting a few for grsding and adding a 2016 MS70 to my registry set.

 

Once the tubes arrived I looped all 50 and only 2 were worthy of submission for grading. A red flag went up immediately when I opened the first tube and the top coin was upside down. There was also a lighter type of masking tape material that was broken, i assume from the mint, and a new piece of tape, totaly difderent type, added over it. Not only was the first coin upside down but the rest were about 50/50 on how they were orientated.

 

Over the years i have purchased many tubes for Eagles, libertads, maples, perth mint coins but this was a first. Needless to say i will never buy from JM bullion again. Are we soon going to have to pay a ransom to dealers like the added fees Apmex charges for their "mint direct" coins where they charge a premium to the customer for a guarantee on not cherry picking through your merchandise before shipping? If they are going to cherry pick, at least put them back in the tubes the right way.

 

Looking at the grading for this year on the libertads it seems as though 70% are making it to MS70 with almost 1800 graded, wow. I was expecting at least 20 coins out of my 50 to select for grading, all i got were 2 out of 50, really?

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When I buy a roll of ASE's from a dealer I assume they may have been cherry picked for any high grade coins and for that reason I just treat them like silver bullion.

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Did you read the terms?

 

Individual coins ship in plastic flips, lots of 25 ship in mint rolls, lots of 450 ship in mint bags.

 

Note that it's not sealed mint rolls...

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Bullion or not, that is not relevant, when companies like Apmex now charges another premium for "mint direct" that is carzy. To have to pay extra for the PRIVILEGE to get untpuched silver is ridiculous. Who is to say they are still not searching them anyway?

 

The purchase i just had was from JM BULLION. I guess any dealer that submitts coins for grading are the dealers to be carefull with.

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It is relevant -- The bulk buyer takes all the risk of price fluctuation and quality. The Mint does not guarantee any kind of silly "grade" on its bullion. The bulk buyer can do whatever they want to improve their possibility of making a profit - that includes playing the foolish "graded bullion" game - which is exactly the same game you are playing.

 

If you expect a level playing field, then buy in the same bulk manner as the companies you complain about.

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It is relevant -- The bulk buyer takes all the risk of price fluctuation and quality. The Mint does not guarantee any kind of silly "grade" on its bullion. The bulk buyer can do whatever they want to improve their possibility of making a profit - that includes playing the foolish "graded bullion" game - which is exactly the same game you are playing.

 

If you expect a level playing field, then buy in the same bulk manner as the companies you complain about.

 

Did you wake up on the wrong side of the bed today? Not sure what game you think I am playing, all i want is a few good coins to grade for my registry set. I am not a flipper nor do i have the intention on selling them for profit.

 

I would rather buy 100 libertads or pandas than 100 common date circulated morgans as the longer term potential is greater on them. Dont get me wrong, i own plenty of high quality morgans, walkers and pre '33 gold but I also believe in diversity.

 

I agree to dissagree with you. Each person collects what they like you obviously think graded bullion is foolish but who are you to critize? Does that mean you dont own a sigle graded ASE?

 

Some bullion warrents a higher premium than others, graded or not. All i am saying is if they are going to cherry pick then be more careful so they dont ruin them before putting them back in the tubes. Is there something wrong with that? It doesnt make a difference in any way whatsoever if this is bullion or not. You purchase a product, you expect to get value in return.

 

Although most sovereign bullion programs are so called "bullion", many are legal tender so are they really different than other numismatics? Some are, but when some fetch several hundreds to several thousands, where is the line drawn between bullion and numismatic? You can say most morgan dollars are bullion as many are tied to the spot price of silver. But when some "bullion or numismatics" breaks away from being tied to spot and sells for a much higher premium no matter where the spot price is, then i think its a little more than just bullion. Most pre 1933 gold can be considered bullion as they are tied to spot but most will call them numismatic. It doesn't make a difference.

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

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Unless tube came directly from Mint would not assume has not been cherry picked. This sounds like the old sealed pf set game lol.

 

Your saying your paying a premium for ASE or Libertad rolls from dealers under the belief they have not been cherrypicked?

 

I have bought some 2015 PCGS MS69 Libertads for less than BV +$15 (cost of slabbing). In looking at the pupulation for this issue PCGS shows 1140 In MS69 and 1169 higher (MS70). This tells me two things: The MS70 is definitely not a scarce part of the slabbed population nor worth a premium for me, and if the roll is truly original my chances of finding one should be high if the pop numbers are reliable in predicting success. I am not a buyer of rolls (or a MS70 seeker) for these and naturally skeptical of seller claims something is unpicked if its is there for him to look thru.

 

In buying any roll of ASE or Libertad I want get them with some kind of quantity discount or as close to melt as possible.

 

Your search intrigues me and I see where 2015 PCGS 70 Libertads are BIN at $54.95 on ebay. I see some fresh on the ebay auction block and will see if can get one much cheaper (say another few bucks than what I paid for a 69) just for grins. One 69 I won for just $7 over melt, less than slab cost.

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

Edited by MarkFeld

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I am not sure what you expected - if you bought silver , I would expect silver . If you wanted nice ones, then you should have inspected each one before purchasing.. an just choosing nice ones to purchase. If you wanted 70's, you should have bought them that way. I am not sure how your grading skills are, but frequently lower graded items can be bought at less than mint purchase + grading fees.

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So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint?

Why would you think they didn't leave the mint that way?

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I will leave it with these two questions, when was the last time anyone has purchased a tube of sovereign bullion from a major dealer (supposedly straight from the mint) and the coins were not all near perfect? When was the last time anyone opened up a new tube to find them put in with varying orientation, tick marks and scratches?

 

From reading the responses I guess my expectations are too high? I dont think so and i will keep high expectations as that is what got me where i am today.

 

As to the ad, it says nothing on their website, no dealer is going to admit cherry picking.

 

Lesson learned for me, never buy tubes from large dealers that submit coins for grading.

 

What's the reason Apmex now offers "mint direct"? Really? Is it just a cheap marketing gimmick or a guarantee they were not cherry picked? At least they offer the oppertunity to purchase unsearched tubes.

Edited by mackbrass

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So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint?

Why would you think they didn't leave the mint that way?

 

For two reasons, first, of all the tubes i have purchased the coins were always orientated in the same direction, part ofbthe minting process.

 

Second, looking at the population report, last checked it was about 50/50 between MS69 and MS70. Out of 50 coins, i was expecting at least 15 to 20 good ones.

 

When i find 2 out of 50 worthy of grading thats low. These 2 aren't even a slam dunk for MS70.

 

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

 

Never expected a guarantee on that but i am sure extra handling doesn't help. Have you ever opened a new tube before? What is your experience?

 

Wow, i am amazed at the defence of this practice. Glad i dont run my company like this. It's like saying its OK to get silver regects and just accept it. BS

 

I said it before, at least Apmex offers "mint direct", at least you can read between the lines with them.

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

 

Never expected a guarantee on that but i am sure extra handling doesn't help. Have you ever opened a new tube before? What is your experience?

 

Wow, i am amazed at the defence of this practice. Glad i dont run my company like this. It's like saying its OK to get silver regects and just accept it. BS

 

I said it before, at least Apmex offers "mint direct", at least you can read between the lines with them.

 

Yes, I have opened new tubes before.

 

My experience is as a full time dealer since 1979, employee of Steve Ivy Rare Coins, Heritage Auctions and Pinnacle Rarities, self employed sole proprietorship, buyer for David Hall and grader for NGC.

 

Again, what I would be OK with as a buyer would be dependent upon how the items were represented. You don't claim that the seller was guilty of misrepresentation. So I keep going back to the belief that you had unmet expectations and were disappointed.

 

For the record, I detest liars and don't like hype, games or slimy behavior. But you haven't illustrated that the seller did any of those things. If you had, I would be on your side of this issue.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

 

Never expected a guarantee on that but i am sure extra handling doesn't help. Have you ever opened a new tube before? What is your experience?

 

Wow, i am amazed at the defence of this practice. Glad i dont run my company like this. It's like saying its OK to get silver regects and just accept it. BS

 

I said it before, at least Apmex offers "mint direct", at least you can read between the lines with them.

 

The person responding to you is a very experienced numismatist, previous TPG Grader. a respected Dealer whose integrity has been proved time and again, to name a very few of his qualifications. I am personally very aware of his integrity. His logic posits are very on target. He is freely giving you the benefit of that logic. He is at present a representative of a well known numismatic Entity. There are very few numismatists, collectors, dealers and Graders that would disagree with his experience level as quite qualified. He is not "defending" anything. He is sharing experience with you and in a courteous manner doing his best to inform you to "read the book", and that accusations and complaints are fine, but blanket condemnation of all entities of the same business category is not correct.

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

 

Never expected a guarantee on that but i am sure extra handling doesn't help. Have you ever opened a new tube before? What is your experience?

 

Wow, i am amazed at the defence of this practice. Glad i dont run my company like this. It's like saying its OK to get silver regects and just accept it. BS

 

I said it before, at least Apmex offers "mint direct", at least you can read between the lines with them.

 

The person responding to you is a very experienced numismatist, previous TPG Grader. a respected Dealer whose integrity has been proved time and again, to name a very few of his qualifications. I am personally very aware of his integrity. His logic posits are very on target. He is freely giving you the benefit of that logic. He is at present a representative of a well known numismatic Entity. There are very few numismatists, collectors, dealers and Graders that would disagree with his experience level as quite qualified. He is not "defending" anything. He is sharing experience with you and in a courteous manner doing his best to inform you to "read the book", and that accusations and complaints are fine, but blanket condemnation of all entities of the same business category is not correct.

 

Blanket condemnation? I am not making a blanket condemnation. I had a certain expectation and it wasnt met. Its a known fact that some dealers, not all, do cherry pick and sell off the so called factory seconds, is there a problem with that statement?

 

 

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Bullion is bullion. If you want to play the "grading bullion" game then you are subject to the same "rules" as anyone else.

 

Whatever.

 

My post wasnt intended to start an argument over what bullion is or isnt or some type of grading game as you stated spun it into. If you cant contribute something constructive then post somewhere else. Bother someone else on your mercury dime bullion posts. Oh, forgot, the gold mecury, gold liberty and gold walkers are bullion and many will be graded but i guess those will be different because you have an interest in them, right?

 

Play the bullion grading game? Really? Look in the mirror as i am sure you are one of those "game players".

 

Call it what you like but read what i originally wrote, its about getting what you pay for, nothing else. If you bought a new car only to find out someone took it around the track for a few runs, how would you feel?

 

If you dont see anything wrong with dealers cherry picking then you must do similar shady things yourself as you obviously dont see anything wrong with it, you see it as a game and thats pathetic.

 

 

 

Cherry picking by the dealers is OK or not, depending upon how they represent the items. Unless they state that the coins have not been checked out, I see nothing wrong with it. It sounds as if your expectations might have been unrealistic.

 

And your new car analogy doesn't hold up. The coins about which you complain would need to be circulated, but represented as uncirculated, for the analogy to hold up.

 

So are you saying that if you spend 1000 dollars you would be OK with tick marks and scratches knowing thats not how they left the mint? No dealer will admit to cherry picking.

 

As to the car analogy, yes it does hold up. You buy a car new and then notice the tires were worn due to misuse prior to selling, and the dealer sold it as new, you don't think thats a problem? Take another analogy, you buy a sofa, upon arrival you discover stains on it from someone eating their lunch on it prior to delivery, wouldnt thst be a problem? Or how about buying a new washing machine that was switched out forba demo model?

 

The point i make is, if you buy a tube of anything from a dealer and they dont state anything regarding cherrypicking, wouldnt you expect to get them the way the mint packaged them? Or shall we just lower our standards and accept tubes of silver in less than the condition the mint distributes them?

 

Or, have i been really lucky after buying about 4 thousand ounces without a problem?

 

Its no secret that some dealers cherry pick, the problem i am speaking of is how they handle them after they get what they want. Like I said earlier, take a little care and think of the customer because without customers they would not be in business.

 

What I'd be OK with would depend upon how the items were represented. I have 't seen anything in your posts showing that the coins were misrepresented - only that you might have had unrealistic/unmet expectations.

 

Please provide a link to the listing, so that we have more complete information.

 

And we'll have to agree to disagree regarding the validity of your analogies.

 

I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

You also complained about the condition of the coins. And there is no assurance that failing to place them in the tubes right side up affected their surfaces in any way.

 

Never expected a guarantee on that but i am sure extra handling doesn't help. Have you ever opened a new tube before? What is your experience?

 

Wow, i am amazed at the defence of this practice. Glad i dont run my company like this. It's like saying its OK to get silver regects and just accept it. BS

 

I said it before, at least Apmex offers "mint direct", at least you can read between the lines with them.

 

The person responding to you is a very experienced numismatist, previous TPG Grader. a respected Dealer whose integrity has been proved time and again, to name a very few of his qualifications. I am personally very aware of his integrity. His logic posits are very on target. He is freely giving you the benefit of that logic. He is at present a representative of a well known numismatic Entity. There are very few numismatists, collectors, dealers and Graders that would disagree with his experience level as quite qualified. He is not "defending" anything. He is sharing experience with you and in a courteous manner doing his best to inform you to "read the book", and that accusations and complaints are fine, but blanket condemnation of all entities of the same business category is not correct.

 

Blanket condemnation? I am not making a blanket condemnation. I had a certain expectation and it wasnt met. Its a known fact that some dealers, not all, do cherry pick and sell off the so called factory seconds, is there a problem with that statement?

 

 

I wish you well. Thank you for the response.

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If what you really seek is a 70 then why not just bid on or buy a slabbed one instead of thinking you can pick one. it seems to me your would be burying yourself in coins you consider sub par just to get that gem in the rough buying a roll.

 

For the coin your discussing I believe I can get a 70 for $10-$12 more than a 69 in the right auction timing. I barely missed getting one today which went for 42 or 43 If not now, during the summer doldrums which are around the corner.

 

I lost an auction on a MS70 Libertad today which closed at $42.15. I was hesitant to bid a few more bucks and had calculated $43.15 as the average but backed off AS in the hour before to a lower number to see if I could get one at the low.

 

Interesting stat: A PCGS case of 20 2015 PCGS 70 Mexico Lebertads went for $765 on the Bay April 18. This is 38.25 each. Wow a 5 case lot of 100 MS70 pieces went for $3700 or $37 each on 4-17.

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I never claimed nor am i claiming misrepresentation. If they are going to cherry pick, and we all know they do, put the rejects back in the tubes the right way.

 

So you posted to complain?

 

You received exactly what you bargained for and what was advertised. I do not see a moral or legal problem, and can only attribute everything else to unrealistic expectations of getting something worth more than what one paid for it. I buy coins to sell too occasionally (not modern bullion), and I am unhappy when I cannot make a decent profit. I do not, however, blame or complain about the seller when my plan falls through.

 

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