NGC's reponse to adjusting the Presidential MS point posted by walnutto
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WE ALL HAVE BEEN DUPED!

 

I did complain to NGC and got the same response posted on my earlier post.

 

So let me respond to that.

 

After 10 years of having the same points issued with very little change, NGC now believes the points are way over the top and had to be adjusted.

 

Well, I am not buying it. We all have been DUPED. The series are coming to a close after this year. That means NGC will not

be making more money on Presidential Dollar submission.

 

I can tell you that anyone that started near the beginning of this series, some paid big bucks to acquire the near elite highest grade dollars. Believing the interest will always demand some interest especially when they also look at the registry points. Now that a President with some MS68 with only 15 in that grade only gets just over 100 points. Why would anyone want to pay much for it now. Very low points for any coin pretty much disrepects the coin and NGC does believes there is not much value in that coin as well.

 

The bottom line is NGC kept the interest for those collectors all thru the series until the very end. Now it is ending, so is the cash cow that drove many dealers into submitting countless submissions.

 

The points are just for fun granted but when there are no points given, the fun is over. Why issue any points then? At least be honest from the start. I am very disappointed of NGC's decision and feel I been duped for 10 years of effort.

 

NGC...do the right thing. Put the points back where they were. Why adjust the points now? If you have admitted making a mistake, that's fine, except the collectors are paying for your mistake.

 

See more journals by walnutto

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Kieth,

It's only points. Not like their recalling the coins or cancelling the slabs. Now the points match the price values they give us. What do you think the next dollars will be if any? Have you seen anything on prototypes? I know the Sacagawea is to die out with the Pres dollars.

I think a medium sized copper dollar would be cool! :)

 

Rick

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When using these sites, we have to keep in mind that the registries are a gimmick for the grading companies to make money, and we should all accept them as just a business and facilitator even under circumstances like this. I empathise, but I think as time goes by and more registry sets are built of the moderns, the numbers graded will swell too. I think this may be why NGC downgraded the points for these series- after ten years there are too many available to justify the high point structure. Even though not many are in holders, we all know that they were made high quality and in high quantity, so many more will get graded in the next bull market, which, if my long experience is right, will be at least a decade from now. I haven't looked at the series to see how bad they cut you, but I do make up spreadsheets to show me the relative scarcity of coins in each series, so a spreadsheet like that might be helpful for you to show NGC where they erred, if they did. As for my series- half eagles are as whacky as any series on NGC's registry sets. Some are super rare and get no respect, some are common and make you say 'huh???', but when you think about it, they don't have the resources, nor do the clerks setting these point value charts up have enough experience, so I think they've done a fair job. Since NGC allows us all to request corrections, once the legwork is done I'm sure NGC will at least look at the outcome and possibly implement a few changes. I have had a couple point values changed using reason and comparison, these guys are great and really try to get it right. Hope you get somewhere, but even if you don't, remember how nice it is to have a tool to show the world the fruits of your hard labor- that alone is why I put my set on NGC. Got me an unexpected award too! Smile and buy yourself a new coin, it'll make you feel better and maybe take the sting out of it...

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WE ALL HAVE BEEN DUPED!

 

I did complain to NGC and got the same response posted on my earlier post.

 

So let me respond to that.

 

After 10 years of having the same points issued with very little change, NGC now believes the points are way over the top and had to be adjusted.

 

Well, I am not buying it. We all have been DUPED. The series are coming to a close after this year. That means NGC will not

be making more money on Presidential Dollar submission.

 

I can tell you that anyone that started near the beginning of this series, some paid big bucks to acquire the near elite highest grade dollars. Believing the interest will always demand some interest especially when they also look at the registry points. Now that a President with some MS68 with only 15 in that grade only gets just over 100 points. Why would anyone want to pay much for it now. Very low points for any coin pretty much disrepects the coin and NGC does believes there is not much value in that coin as well.

 

The bottom line is NGC kept the interest for those collectors all thru the series until the very end. Now it is ending, so is the cash cow that drove many dealers into submitting countless submissions.

 

The points are just for fun granted but when there are no points given, the fun is over. Why issue any points then? At least be honest from the start. I am very disappointed of NGC's decision and feel I been duped for 10 years of effort.

 

NGC...do the right thing. Put the points back where they were. Why adjust the points now? If you have admitted making a mistake, that's fine, except the collectors are paying for your mistake.

 

See more journals by walnutto

I don't see that NGC "duped" anyone and I don't doubt their explanation for the change. Why do you think they would do it, if not for the reason they gave?

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The only one who has been duped is you.

 

There is nothing significant in and of itself in accumulating registry points whether few or many, anymore than there is in placing first in the seemingly infinite number of registry sets categories. This is especially so since in most instances, the actual best sets aren't even competing. What matters is the coins in the set.

 

The registry point system is completely arbitrary. I am vaguely familiar with NGC's point system and have noticed in the past when I checked the points awarded for a particular coin in a particular grade how bizarre it was. This isn't just true of US moderns such as this one, but across the board.

 

Logically, the coins which are scarcer and higher on the preference scale should be awarded more points than those which are lower and more common.. The coins you are complaining about are extremely common and only "scarce" as "grade rarities" or possibly one grade below it.

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As long as the point for a 68 are higher than for a 67, and a 67 is higher then for a 66 etc what does it matter what the actual number of points assigned is?

 

Maybe there is something special as to how the points are assigned or used that I don't understand (I don't do or follow registries)

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Why not forget about "the coins" and just collect points on little bits of colored paper? An awl will make lots of nice points on paper.

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It would seem that some people love creating registry sets and some people hate the fact that some people love creating registry sets. I am somewhat perplexed by the former (not being interested in registry sets myself) but completely mystified by the latter.

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I can value all the responses and understand your concern. I would just say that the registry is free and my experience with NGC and specifically Ali has been excellent to date. Trust and believe that no one was out to specifically devalue your efforts, etc.

 

I do see various types of collectors on the registry. Some folks want to have as many 1st place sets as possible. Others want to have that one high caliber set that is well written, photographed, etc. Others want as many points as possible regardless of how their sets place. To each their own I guess!

 

On my end, I am one of those registry guys that goes for symmetry. I only build a set that I can 100% finish with my resources and I want it to be nice coins and have all the commentary and photos populated. As for the actual symmetry, I only have NGC 4-point holders. I even went as far as to ensure all my Morgan Dollars were MS63 in that specific set (except for one coin!). I will spend money just to send in an old holder so that it returns in a 4-point like the rest of my sets. Silly, but that's me.

 

Sounds like you are points guy and saw an opportunity a long time back to rack up some serious points with coins that don't cost a fortune. The question then becomes, what does that high point count earn you and us as registry members? Stature on the forums? Bragging rights? A suggestion as to one's net worth? The questions could go on-and-on. Self reflect and ask why those points were so important to you specifically.

 

Collecting is a sport in my opinion and I think NGC was wise to create this forum to let our inner competitive personas come out. It was a good business model for both them and us. We all play the game differently. Regardless, don't let a drop in points spoil your actual hobby of coins.

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I, for one can understand the point you made and your frustration. I don't visit these forums much because of the snooty responses you received ( for the most part), complete lack of empathy or even an ounce of compassion towards your frustration and feeling of betrayal.

It is quite unfortunate--and gives a questionable portrayal- that the points just happen to be reduced now.

One person asks, "what would NGC/the Registry hope to achieve by this?'

I believe this question looks at the issue backwards. The point is, there is an appearance of over-inflating registry ( and dollar) value of the series during its production which would logically encourage greater submissions and money for the graders. Now that the series is ending, there is the impression that " now we'll give the coins the right points they should have been getting all along since we no longer will profit."--

Most likely is not the case, but as I said, very unfortunate timing.

 

PS: and there can be little argument that the TPG's and their registries create much of the interest in these over-inflated modern "condition rarities." The TPG's create the rarities, they know that it is primarily registry participants who purchase them at premiums and that the dealers and large submitters increase their (TPG's) submission revenue as a result.

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I, for one can understand the point you made and your frustration. I don't visit these forums much because of the snooty responses you received ( for the most part), complete lack of empathy or even an ounce of compassion towards your frustration and feeling of betrayal.

It is quite unfortunate--and gives a questionable portrayal- that the points just happen to be reduced now.

One person asks, "what would NGC/the Registry hope to achieve by this?'

I believe this question looks at the issue backwards. The point is, there is an appearance of over-inflating registry ( and dollar) value of the series during its production which would logically encourage greater submissions and money for the graders. Now that the series is ending, there is the impression that " now we'll give the coins the right points they should have been getting all along since we no longer will profit."--

Most likely is not the case, but as I said, very unfortunate timing.

 

PS: and there can be little argument that the TPG's and their registries create much of the interest in these over-inflated modern "condition rarities." The TPG's create the rarities, they know that it is primarily registry participants who purchase them at premiums and that the dealers and large submitters increase their (TPG's) submission revenue as a result.

 

I believe that the OP would have received considerably more empathy, had he not started with "WE HAVE ALL BEEN DUPED", had he voiced his complaint once, rather than multiple times and had he not been so accusatory in his posts.

 

Based on a number of your previous posts, it appears that you have a problem with me, so I will be curious to see if you take issue with my above post. ;)

 

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It would seem that some people love creating registry sets and some people hate the fact that some people love creating registry sets. I am somewhat perplexed by the former (not being interested in registry sets myself) but completely mystified by the latter.

 

I am perplexed by anyone who doesn't understand why showing what a collector has worked so hard to assemble and has so much passion for is so perplexing. All respect for all opinions, but registry sets are a useful tool for sharing what you've done in the hobby with others who have the same passion. I live in a very remote location and can't get to shows. The local coin club was run by an arrogant jerk who spent the meetings bragging so I didn't stay there long. Since there is no other way for some of us to share our experiences and coins with, what better way than to display it publicly? NUG and PCGS may make a lot of money on this, but they DO host it at some cost to them, and since we pay for their services, why shouldn't we ustilize every tool they've given us the privilege to use? When I peruse the registry sets here, I don't compare points, I compare coins and their eye appeal and beauty. Afterall, the hobby is about coins and our passion for them and knowledge of them, is it not?.

 

This gentleman has a valid complaint and no one should play with his head or his motives. Fair is fair and when something gets out of whack, it gets fixed. Unfortunately, it appears to have been fixed in a very arbitray manner and still needs some fine tuning, I agree that griping won't do the job, but careful analysis will help show NGC where their mistakes were made and why. I have been a problem solver (by profession) my entire adult life (and much of my childhood too) and I see the problem as clear as the author of this journal. One thing I learned early on (I was in the Navy at the time) is that when you tell people in authority that they screwed up or you know better, it doesn't matter if you do, you lost the fight at that point. I had to force the issue many times throughout my Navy career but logic and reason won out every single time and I won on those grounds. I have suggested the same for the author. I'd expect others to support a logical and reasonable solution, not poo-poo this fine gentleman...

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I can value all the responses and understand your concern. I would just say that the registry is free and my experience with NGC and specifically Ali has been excellent to date. Trust and believe that no one was out to specifically devalue your efforts, etc.

 

I do see various types of collectors on the registry. Some folks want to have as many 1st place sets as possible. Others want to have that one high caliber set that is well written, photographed, etc. Others want as many points as possible regardless of how their sets place. To each their own I guess!

 

On my end, I am one of those registry guys that goes for symmetry. I only build a set that I can 100% finish with my resources and I want it to be nice coins and have all the commentary and photos populated. As for the actual symmetry, I only have NGC 4-point holders. I even went as far as to ensure all my Morgan Dollars were MS63 in that specific set (except for one coin!). I will spend money just to send in an old holder so that it returns in a 4-point like the rest of my sets. Silly, but that's me.

 

Sounds like you are points guy and saw an opportunity a long time back to rack up some serious points with coins that don't cost a fortune. The question then becomes, what does that high point count earn you and us as registry members? Stature on the forums? Bragging rights? A suggestion as to one's net worth? The questions could go on-and-on. Self reflect and ask why those points were so important to you specifically.

 

Collecting is a sport in my opinion and I think NGC was wise to create this forum to let our inner competitive personas come out. It was a good business model for both them and us. We all play the game differently. Regardless, don't let a drop in points spoil your actual hobby of coins.

 

 

very good points and reasonable to ask for self-reflection. You're right, we all have our own motives out here, but the gentleman has a valid complaint. I definitely don't blame anyone, surely not Ali, who is always there to help and does so quickly and as proficiently as possible.

 

Tip of the hat to you Ali, but please see that this man is correct- the point system needs to be tied to comparitive scarcity, nothing else, and surely not because you bought a special holder- what are we displaying and evaluating here anyway, coins or plastic slabs?

 

I have spent a lifetime putting values ($$$) on the coins in the series I have collected so that I knew which were undervalued in nthe market and I could target the very best deals first. I do this utilizing a spreadsheet and a series of parameters and it worked well for me for the past forty years. This is what I think will solve this ongoing complaint, just looking at it from a human's eye isn't enough, humans are biased in many ways, data in a spreadsheet is universal and the outcome is the same every time and no matter who does it, given that the data input is derived from the same sources. I use greysheet, all major online price guides as well as population and census data, and of courseknowledge of the series and which coins were most likely to have been sent in multiple times (as in those that would be worth significantly more in the next grade up or those that are extremely rare in any condition) and it gives me a much truer picture that just casual observation and personal bias.

 

In short, what we need is some honest evaluation of each series, as in-depth as possible, but I think it will have to be on us, the users, because it would take a large team if NGC was to take it on and correct every discrepancy. I would be happy to volunteer in the series I collect presently (liberty half eagles) and maybe if others who know how to use a spreadsheet would volunteer their time and talents we could work with Ali and NGC to get the job done. What we have to accept, though, is that no matter how perfect we try to make it, someone will always complain. ut at least we can reduced the complaints if we try...

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"I am perplexed by anyone who doesn't understand why showing what a collector has worked so hard to assemble and has so much passion for is so perplexing."

 

 

 

It would seem that we are both perplexed for the same reason - lack of understanding.

 

If I was not somewhat perplexed by the registry set phenomenon, I would probably be creating a registry set of my own. I do not see where not understanding what others find interesting is wrong.

 

If it is, we are all guilty.

 

Are you certain that you assessed the intention of my prior post correctly? I think I was defending the OP's right to his views, though admittedly without fully understanding them.

 

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I, for one can understand the point you made and your frustration. I don't visit these forums much because of the snooty responses you received ( for the most part), complete lack of empathy or even an ounce of compassion towards your frustration and feeling of betrayal.

It is quite unfortunate--and gives a questionable portrayal- that the points just happen to be reduced now.

One person asks, "what would NGC/the Registry hope to achieve by this?'

I believe this question looks at the issue backwards. The point is, there is an appearance of over-inflating registry ( and dollar) value of the series during its production which would logically encourage greater submissions and money for the graders. Now that the series is ending, there is the impression that " now we'll give the coins the right points they should have been getting all along since we no longer will profit."--

Most likely is not the case, but as I said, very unfortunate timing.

 

PS: and there can be little argument that the TPG's and their registries create much of the interest in these over-inflated modern "condition rarities." The TPG's create the rarities, they know that it is primarily registry participants who purchase them at premiums and that the dealers and large submitters increase their (TPG's) submission revenue as a result.

 

Glad you brought up that point. I have avoided the forums like a plague here because a few of the regulars have nothing better to do than put down anyone who doesn't think like them. I have seen a few posters get ripped apart by the same couple of guys and I think they shlould have been put in their place. When I wrote to the moderator my complaint was largely ignored and my last email to him wasn't even replied to so I guess we know who is friends with who here and why we have this status quo. It is sad that in America, with everything great we have built and use, that we would be chased away from the best of it by these cyber bullies. I've always believed that if you have nothing constructive to add to the conversation, you should keep your mouth shut and move along. Some people just aren't raised right...

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I can value all the responses and understand your concern. I would just say that the registry is free and my experience with NGC and specifically Ali has been excellent to date. Trust and believe that no one was out to specifically devalue your efforts, etc.

 

I do see various types of collectors on the registry. Some folks want to have as many 1st place sets as possible. Others want to have that one high caliber set that is well written, photographed, etc. Others want as many points as possible regardless of how their sets place. To each their own I guess!

 

On my end, I am one of those registry guys that goes for symmetry. I only build a set that I can 100% finish with my resources and I want it to be nice coins and have all the commentary and photos populated. As for the actual symmetry, I only have NGC 4-point holders. I even went as far as to ensure all my Morgan Dollars were MS63 in that specific set (except for one coin!). I will spend money just to send in an old holder so that it returns in a 4-point like the rest of my sets. Silly, but that's me.

 

Sounds like you are points guy and saw an opportunity a long time back to rack up some serious points with coins that don't cost a fortune. The question then becomes, what does that high point count earn you and us as registry members? Stature on the forums? Bragging rights? A suggestion as to one's net worth? The questions could go on-and-on. Self reflect and ask why those points were so important to you specifically.

 

Collecting is a sport in my opinion and I think NGC was wise to create this forum to let our inner competitive personas come out. It was a good business model for both them and us. We all play the game differently. Regardless, don't let a drop in points spoil your actual hobby of coins.

 

 

very good points and reasonable to ask for self-reflection. You're right, we all have our own motives out here, but the gentleman has a valid complaint. I definitely don't blame anyone, surely not Ali, who is always there to help and does so quickly and as proficiently as possible.

 

Tip of the hat to you Ali, but please see that this man is correct- the point system needs to be tied to comparitive scarcity, nothing else, and surely not because you bought a special holder- what are we displaying and evaluating here anyway, coins or plastic slabs?

 

I have spent a lifetime putting values ($$$) on the coins in the series I have collected so that I knew which were undervalued in nthe market and I could target the very best deals first. I do this utilizing a spreadsheet and a series of parameters and it worked well for me for the past forty years. This is what I think will solve this ongoing complaint, just looking at it from a human's eye isn't enough, humans are biased in many ways, data in a spreadsheet is universal and the outcome is the same every time and no matter who does it, given that the data input is derived from the same sources. I use greysheet, all major online price guides as well as population and census data, and of courseknowledge of the series and which coins were most likely to have been sent in multiple times (as in those that would be worth significantly more in the next grade up or those that are extremely rare in any condition) and it gives me a much truer picture that just casual observation and personal bias.

 

In short, what we need is some honest evaluation of each series, as in-depth as possible, but I think it will have to be on us, the users, because it would take a large team if NGC was to take it on and correct every discrepancy. I would be happy to volunteer in the series I collect presently (liberty half eagles) and maybe if others who know how to use a spreadsheet would volunteer their time and talents we could work with Ali and NGC to get the job done. What we have to accept, though, is that no matter how perfect we try to make it, someone will always complain. ut at least we can reduced the complaints if we try...

 

Excellent post and this has turned into a very good, constructive discussion. (thumbs u

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"I am perplexed by anyone who doesn't understand why showing what a collector has worked so hard to assemble and has so much passion for is so perplexing."

 

 

 

It would seem that we are both perplexed for the same reason - lack of understanding.

 

If I was not somewhat perplexed by the registry set phenomenon, I would probably be creating a registry set of my own. I do not see where not understanding what others find interesting is wrong.

 

If it is, we are all guilty.

 

Are you certain that you assessed the intention of my prior post correctly? I think I was defending the OP's right to his views, though admittedly without fully understanding them.

 

No sir, I'm not sure, and I guess the possibility exists that I read you wrong. I read it the way it was written and it appears you don't understand why we post registry sets, or maybe you meant that you don't understand why he'd bother with what he collects. Perhaps I agree with you more on modern series- they are truly common and everyone who looks at the numbers *produced* can see that, so yes, spending hundreds or thousands of dollars for common coins just to get huge points here is perplexing, but hey, to each his own. I collect only obsolete series so I have a bias against this gentleman's choice too, but that doesn't mean he doesn't have as much passion for what he's doing and we shouldn't keep him from his particular pursuit of happiness, should we? And it also shouldn't be so perplexing to the rest of us. Or maybe you're a younger person, one who has been brought up in our one-size-fits-all society and you have this attitude because he's different or thinks different (independently from the crowd maybe) or his intentions don't meet your idea of the norm or something similar. Maybe it's a generational gap. I am in my fifty first year in the hobby and my outlook is much different than his, no doubt in my mind, but I still allow him his own mind, his own likes, and his own feelings, and I glad some people still aren't afraid to stand up and be heard. All that matters is a reasonable question has been raised and the person raising it has every right to do so, so the rest of us should either lend assistance or move along, don't you agree?

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"I read it the way it was written and it appears you don't understand why we post registry sets,"

 

 

 

Right. So if I am wrong because I do not understand why people post registry sets, then you are wrong because you do not understand why I do not understand why people post registry sets.

 

I think neither of us is wrong for not understanding.

 

 

 

"...or maybe you meant that you don't understand why he'd bother with what he collects."

 

 

 

I addressed people who love registry sets - not any one person. The suggestion that I said otherwise is your invention.

 

I also said I was completely mystified by people who hate the fact that people love registry sets. According to your logic, I have done wrong here as well.

 

I would mention that I also do not understand why people like sports so much, but apparently that would be wrong also.

 

Come to think of it, there are a lot things that people do that I do not understand. I bet this is true of you as well.

 

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"I read it the way it was written and it appears you don't understand why we post registry sets,"

 

 

 

Right. So if I am wrong because I do not understand why people post registry sets, then you are wrong because you do not understand why I do not understand why people post registry sets.

 

I think neither of us is wrong for not understanding.

 

 

 

"...or maybe you meant that you don't understand why he'd bother with what he collects."

 

 

 

I addressed people who love registry sets - not any one person. The suggestion that I said otherwise is your invention.

 

I also said I was completely mystified by people who hate the fact that people love registry sets. According to your logic, I have done wrong here as well.

 

I would mention that I also do not understand why people like sports so much, but apparently that would be wrong also.

 

Come to think of it, there are a lot things that people do that I do not understand. I bet this is true of you as well.

 

 

I don't think I ever said anyone was wrong, except for those who obviously slighted this gentleman for no good reason without offering help or constructive criticism. Yes, I agree he wasn't as tactful as he could be, but how many of has ever taken a course in tactful public interaction with complete strangers? He is speaking out of frustration and at least some of us recognized that fact and had some empathy and reason to hear him out anyway.

 

Forgive me if you thought I was somehow attacking you, and believe me, if you ever merited a personal attack, you would know it when you saw it. I was simply throwing in my two cents here, it is a coin collecting forum afterall and you can keep the change my friend ;)

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I think neither of us is wrong for not understanding.

 

 

 

 

 

To be sure, I have spent my entire life trying to understand, even when it appeared that it couldn't be. As a thirty five year Navy trained technician, my main goal was understanding, and reason, logic and close attention to every detail possible were the tools I used to excel in the field. I think I do understand the gentleman who posted this and I absolutely understand the problems he is talking about- I personally have pointed out a couple of discrepancies in the past that were addressed professionally and expediently so I know the problem can be corrected with the proper attention, reason and logic. With all respect, what I still don't understand is what you meant, maybe because your message is a bit convoluted. No problem though, I think I get the gist of your replies now, and I thank you for clarifying, I do see one thing that I took wrong. I was not throwing anything in your face, just a friendly discussion and privileged to be part of it...

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"I don't think I ever said anyone was wrong, except for those who obviously slighted this gentleman for no good reason without offering help or constructive criticism."

 

 

You indicated I was doing wrong, simply because I admitted that I am perplexed by the registry set phenomenon. You singled me out over those who were obviously slighting the OP, even though I suggested that their posts completely mystified me.

 

No, you were attacking me personally and without provocation. I have no doubt of this.

 

The only question is why?

 

 

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First, let me explain that I am now back in the CS after about a 2 year hiatus. After reading the journal article and all the replies here, I guess I want to put in my 2 cent piece and reply.

 

My feeling is, what has happened with the Presidential dollars is no different than what the Sac dollars have gone through. Thanks to 6 Mile Rick, my Sac Dollar proof set is complete thru 2015. I have been working on the set off and on since 2006. When I first started, I bought a 2001-S Proof graded PF-70 Ultra Cameo. At the time, this coin, in this grade, had a Numismedia value of well over $200, and that is what I paid. Well thru the years, the price guides have decreased their price on this course by over 50%. Why? Because as a few people have mentioned, there are a lot of coins being held and just now graded, and more PF70Ultra Cameo's have been graded.

 

So, what does this do? It's supply and demand. When the supply exceeds the demand, a coin's valuation and point total goes way down. All modern coins have this happen, although possibly not to the same degree. So to get on NCG's case and say they're duping us, to me, is not right and very unfair to NGC.

 

I tried to make this same point to a certain person on this board. Many of the older veteran's here probably remember him. Paul is his first name and that's all I'm giving out. He was getting on another member for not buying PF 70 Sacs. Called this person dumb etc. and I called him on it and he could not understand that the coins were being reduced in value because more were coming on the market.

 

I am not trying to bash anyone, just trying to make all of us understand on modern coins, I feel this problem is not a problem, no one is trying to dupe us because this is a fact of economic life.

 

Thanks for reading and I hope I have made my point in a clear manner.

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"I don't think I ever said anyone was wrong, except for those who obviously slighted this gentleman for no good reason without offering help or constructive criticism."

 

 

You indicated I was doing wrong, simply because I admitted that I am perplexed by the registry set phenomenon. You singled me out over those who were obviously slighting the OP, even though I suggested that their posts completely mystified me.

 

No, you were attacking me personally and without provocation. I have no doubt of this.

 

The only question is why?

 

 

I don't see where he said you were doing wrong or where he attacked you.

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NGC has a Registry area in the forums, which has a sub-forum entitled “NGC Registry Help and Instructions.” In the latter, there is prominently a FAQ thread that is anchored to the top. That thread was created in April of 2007 (your series began in 2007), and contains a link to a post by Dena (also from April of 2007) addressing how NGC determines the point value:

 

We place a value on each coin that is based on the relative rarity of its type, date and grade. This value takes many factors into account such as grade, population, market value, eye appeal and expert opinion. When a set is ranked in the registry, its rank is judged based on the total of the individual scores of all the coins.

 

As a basic guide to our system, collectors can look to the market as an excellent method of comparing the relative rarity of one coin to another. There is simply no better indicator of how much a coin is desired.

 

There is, however, no one perfect source that accounts for all the elements needed to be considered when ranking sets in the Registry. Comparative values of coins in the market can appear distorted (especially at the top end). On the other hand the grades alone are a poor indicator of how much "finer" a coin is because the grade does not reflect the rarity of a coin.

 

Through extensive market research, we are able to provide a ranking system that recognizes the intelligence of the market, but offers a more true reflection of relative rarity than does market value, because it appropriately adjusts for market distortions.

 

To summarize: The point values are based on relative rarity, grade/population data, and market value. In case you haven't been paying attention to prices realized, the coin market is not doing well over all. Moderns are performing especially abysmally (although there are exceptions). As such, did you really expect that the point values would not change when (1) the population increased and thus the relative "rarity" also decreased and (2) the market has performed poorly? If anything, the changes are long over due. No criticism meant to NGC, but is often slow in adjusting scores which is consistent with what we are observing here. You could argue that the timing was less than ideal (and perhaps it is), but the changes are well justified.

 

On another note, I do not see the "snooty" posts referenced by another poster. I think many posters were reacting to the language that collectors were somehow "duped" or that there was a nefarious intent on the part of NGC. Moreover, your post also seems to place the value of a coin on its registry points, which many advanced collectors are correct to question. Top sets and coins do not depend on labels and points - the coins do the talking. And that is true regardless of whether we are talking about 18th century and early 19th century coinage or moderns - some coins are better than others. Create a set you are proud of and provide high quality images, allowing the coins to do the "talking."

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I empathise, but I think as time goes by and more registry sets are built of the moderns, the numbers graded will swell too. I think this may be why NGC downgraded the points for these series- after ten years there are too many available to justify the high point structure.

 

This is an excellent justification for the adjustment.

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As long as the point for a 68 are higher than for a 67, and a 67 is higher then for a 66 etc what does it matter what the actual number of points assigned is?

 

Maybe there is something special as to how the points are assigned or used that I don't understand (I don't do or follow registries)

 

NGC also provides registry rankings based on the total points awarded in all of the participant's sets. As such, a point decrease could decrease relative ranking there. Even though I have never cared for registry sets personally, even if I did, I do not realistically see any value to that ranking system and it emphasizes faux rarity with many of the moderns being ranked unusually high (or at least the pieces were at one time). Many series, particularly early 19th century and 18th century material including early gold, is not weighed as heavily as it should be for its rarity. In short, I think most collectors couldn't care less about it and do not think it would have any effect on value or desirability. Rather, a large increase in population with the realization that there are many raw examples in high level of preservation coupled with a poor market are to blame on that end.

Edited by coinman_23885

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It would seem that some people love creating registry sets and some people hate the fact that some people love creating registry sets. I am somewhat perplexed by the former (not being interested in registry sets myself) but completely mystified by the latter.

 

I'm not big on keeping registry sets, but I don't care if other people want to. That said, it must be noted, in fairness to the other responses to the op, that they may feel the that points have become more valuable, to the op, than the coins they represent. The op is unhappy that NGC revalued the set, but if a complete registry set in the finest grade earns 1000 points today, and NGC changes the point system to a max of 500 points, nothing has actually changed.

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First, let me explain that I am now back in the CS after about a 2 year hiatus. After reading the journal article and all the replies here, I guess I want to put in my 2 cent piece and reply.

 

My feeling is, what has happened with the Presidential dollars is no different than what the Sac dollars have gone through. Thanks to 6 Mile Rick, my Sac Dollar proof set is complete thru 2015. I have been working on the set off and on since 2006. When I first started, I bought a 2001-S Proof graded PF-70 Ultra Cameo. At the time, this coin, in this grade, had a Numismedia value of well over $200, and that is what I paid. Well thru the years, the price guides have decreased their price on this course by over 50%. Why? Because as a few people have mentioned, there are a lot of coins being held and just now graded, and more PF70Ultra Cameo's have been graded.

 

So, what does this do? It's supply and demand. When the supply exceeds the demand, a coin's valuation and point total goes way down. All modern coins have this happen, although possibly not to the same degree. So to get on NCG's case and say they're duping us, to me, is not right and very unfair to NGC.

 

I tried to make this same point to a certain person on this board. Many of the older veteran's here probably remember him. Paul is his first name and that's all I'm giving out. He was getting on another member for not buying PF 70 Sacs. Called this person dumb etc. and I called him on it and he could not understand that the coins were being reduced in value because more were coming on the market.

 

I am not trying to bash anyone, just trying to make all of us understand on modern coins, I feel this problem is not a problem, no one is trying to dupe us because this is a fact of economic life.

 

Thanks for reading and I hope I have made my point in a clear manner.

 

The only thing I will say is that, yes, many Proof Sac and Pres dollars have yet to be graded. However, the longer people wait to submit them, the fewer 70s are going to be obtained. The manganese copper alloy is prone to spotting and discoloration, and coins in mint packaging are not ideally suited for long term storage.

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NGC also provides registry rankings based on the total points awarded in all of the participant's sets. As such, a point decrease could decrease relative ranking there. Even though I have never cared for registry sets personally, even if I did, I do not realistically see any value to that ranking system and it emphasizes faux rarity with many of the moderns being ranked unusually high (or at least the pieces were at one time). Many series, particularly early 19th century and 18th century material including early gold, is not weighed as heavily as it should be for its rarity. In short, I think most collectors couldn't care less about it and do not think it would have any effect on value or desirability. Rather, a large increase in population with the realization that there are many raw examples in high level of preservation coupled with a poor market are to blame on that end.

 

In another thread here on NGC Journals, the OP complains that they lost over 6500 registry points on these presidential dollars. To provide a point of comparison, I list a few examples below to support your point. Two are awarded fewer points and two greater.

 

Regardless, it should be apparent that the points awarded to these coins versus just those lost by the OP is completely disproportional to what remotely makes any sense.

 

1802 half PCGS MS-62 16919

1796 quarter PCGS MS-61 11384

1800 dollar NGC AU-58 4724 (Bill Jones' coin)

1732 Mexico pillar 4R trial strike NGC AU-58 5734

 

 

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