Upgrade from 66 to 67

[benjmurts]

So I have a few NGC graded cents in MS 66, most are valued around $20-30.

 

Looking at the price guide they would be worth $500-$1000 in MS 67

 

Would there be any chance if resubmitted they would come back a higher grade or is this very wishful thinking?

 

Thoughts

 

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/3782331-011/

https://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/2673903-002/

[physics-fan3.14]

That is not something we can answer on a general basis. Is there a chance? Maybe.

 

Show us pictures of some of them. For the most part, I'd guess that a 66 is a 66 - but if you have a really high end 66, with a great strike, strong luster, smooth fields, and superb eye appeal, resubmitting it may net you a 67.

[MarkFeld]

You mentioned the price guide, but not what MS67's have actually been selling for. Those might be two very different things.

 

Yes, there's a chance that a resubmission could result in a higher grade. But we have no way of knowing if that chance is 0% or much greater, based on the (lack of) information provided.

[BillJones]

Getting coins like this into holders that increase the value from $20 to $30 to $500 to $1,000 is very hard. The graders know about increases like this, and they don't give out those lofty grades like pieces of candy. The differences between MS-66 to MS-67 are subtle, and not readily apparent to the average collector's eye. There is also bit of luck involved too, because subjectivity can also play a role.

 

It is my belief, and you can jump on me if you like, that the grading services, especially PCGS, control the number of these coins on the market to support the price structure. If they were to issue too many of these high grade coins, the prices would fall. A lot of the support for these "ultra grade coins" comes from the registry market which a select few are willing to pay very high prices for a "POP 1 coin" based on grade on the holder. For some of these people, the appearance of the coin in the holder is secondary.

 

[RWB]

What dates/mints are the coins? Why do you think they will "up grade?"

[MarkFeld]

Getting coins like this into holders that increase the value from $20 to $30 to $500 to $1,000 is very hard. The graders know about increases like this, and they don't give out those lofty grades like pieces of candy. The differences between MS-66 to MS-67 are subtle, and not readily apparent to the average collector's eye. There is also bit of luck involved too, because subjectivity can also play a role.

 

It is my belief, and you can jump on me if you like, that the grading services, especially PCGS, control the number of these coins on the market to support the price structure. If they were to issue too many of these high grade coins, the prices would fall. A lot of the support for these "ultra grade coins" comes from the registry market which a select few are willing to pay very high prices for a "POP 1 coin" based on grade on the holder. For some of these people, the appearance of the coin in the holder is secondary.

 

Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years.

[RWB]

"Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years."

 

Good point -- and -- that's because they exist by the hundreds of thousands...only most have never been sent in for authentication.

[MarkFeld]

"Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years."

 

Good point -- and -- that's because they exist by the hundreds of thousands...only most have never been sent in for authentication.

 

It is my belief that the population increases have been fueled largely by loosening of grading standards and not just the submission of previously uncertified coins.

[BillJones]

"Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years."

 

Good point -- and -- that's because they exist by the hundreds of thousands...only most have never been sent in for authentication.

 

It is my belief that the population increases have been fueled largely by loosening of grading standards and not just the submission of previously uncertified coins.

 

So "grade-flation" has effected the modern coin market as well as the classic coin market ...

 

I know that the standards for classic coins have dropped, in general, from my own observations. You still see some recently graded classic coins that are okay, but there are more and more pieces that reflect a relaxing of the standards.

[A.Phillips]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

[physics-fan3.14]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

 

Or it could be because the coin has a trace of wear that you didn't see, and it really was an AU-58. If it was submitted at least 3 times and it comes back the same every time, chances are good that it is probably the right grade.

[AHFreak]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

 

I'd be willing to bet (a large amount of money) that the reason your coin has come back 3 times as AU58 has nothing to do with the value of a MS specimen and everything to do with its actual grade. .. meaning it's a AU coin. Sometimes you need to know how to look at a coin the same way the graders do in order to see what they are seeing.

[A.Phillips]

Well, I used to have 1897-O Morgan AU58 as well, I compare that coin with 1896-O Morgan, and 1896-O looks better and has all details on eagle's breastplate and hair on Liberty. However, I think you both may be right that 1896-O Morgan is nailed at AU58 while I assume that 1897-O may be overgraded.

[AHFreak]

When I took the grading courses with the ANA, one of the most fascinating things I realized was how hard, how nearly impossible it can be for people to tell a difference between a weakly struck MS coin and a nice looking high grade AU coin.

 

There were coins I could see plain as day had slight rub, (making it a AU58) where the guy next to me (who had 30 years more expirience then myself swore up and down, and even bet me lunch in one case, that the coin was at least a MS64. Then on another coin with a severely weak strike, I'd swear it was AU, only to learn it was MS.

 

It can be very hard to tell the difference without a developed eye.

[BillJones]

Bill Jones is right that It is very hard to resubmit the coins for upgrade. I purchased 1896-O Morgan NGC AU58, I break it out and submitted it to NGC because it looks too good to be AU58, and it still come back as AU58. So I sold it to one of member here, he did take it out of slab and sent it to NGC, and STILL come back as AU58! It's because there is huge gap of value price between AU58 and MS60 ($585 at AU58; $2400 at MS60)!

 

Or it could be because the coin has a trace of wear that you didn't see, and it really was an AU-58. If it was submitted at least 3 times and it comes back the same every time, chances are good that it is probably the right grade.

 

If that is true why do so many AU-58 coins end up in MS-61 and 62 holders when the the price difference between AU and MS is not huge?

[e1cnr]

I sold a PCGS MS66 quarter a few years ago for something like $60 - within a couple years someone had upgraded it to a MS67+ so it is possible

[orifdoc]

Yes, of course there's a chance.

 

Whether or not that chance is high enough to justify the grading fees (again) depends on the coins.

[Raisethis2]

The OP's coins are so common that having coins like these graded just made no economic sense. Those that were submitted were either something sentimental or something it's owner was certain would grade so high it made sense to submit.

 

Here we are now years later and still the populations in higher grades are low. That "has" to tell you something. What it means to me is that the TPG'S have determined that few of these common dates should get the lofty designations. I think they have concluded that there are so many of these common dates that if people saw MS 67 grades (and higher) that they'd be grading 1956 Lincolns until the cows come home.

 

One major element of grading is establishing value. That's the major thing in play IMO.

 

 

[Coinbuf]

With only the links your provided to go on, imo the 56-D has the luster but too many small contact marks. It could on a good day in the right order go 66+, I'm not that much a collector of post wheat cents so I just don't know on the other. I will say that both of these are in very new holders so the chances of an upgrade at NGC are slim, chances of an upgrade are actually better at PCGS these days imo. But you need the right material to submit these with and submit them at the right time.

 

If you really want an expert opinion ask a Lincoln specialist at a show what they think, someone like Andy at AngelDee's.

 

Eddited to add: It can be done, the 56 in my set was in a 66 holder when I bought it. With some luck, some help, and several tries it now is in a 67 holder where it belongs.

 

 

[World Colonial]

Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years.

 

1995-W PCGS PR-70DCAM ASE is the most prominent example I recall. Maybe five years ago oR so, I believe there were a handful. Today, it is 105. The price is still in the low to mid 20K but well off the one sale of $86K.

[MarkFeld]

Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years.

 

1995-W PCGS PR-70DCAM ASE is the most prominent example I recall. Maybe five years ago oR so, I believe there were a handful. Today, it is 105. The price is still in the low to mid 20K but well off the one sale of $86K.

 

I believe that they tend to trade for under $20,000 now.

[World Colonial]

I was using the Heritage archives but you could be right. My recollection is that NGC coins sell for less than 20k while PCGS is somewhat more.

[AHFreak]

I know the highest price was into 6-figures for at least one 95-W in 70DC. But now, as Mark Feld mentioned, even in PCGS they are under 20K now. One sold at auction 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and if I remember right went for 15K or so. .. this was a PCGS PR70DCam holder. Does anyone know that sometime right about the time the population started increasing exponentially that PCGS started charging $5K per PR70DC that they assigned? While the 95-W silver eagle was $5K for PR70DC, the other moderns were $500 for PR70DC's.... all the sudden early 1970's proof IKE dollars that were next to nonexistent in 70DC started becoming normal in 70DC the top pops for moderns exploded across the board... PCGS made $500 per 70 they assigned on MODERNS. They were selling grades. The fact that this sort of thing happened and nobody talks about it or addresses is mind boggling. In fact, most of you who do not know this probably will not even believe me, but yet it 100% happened.

[lehigh96]

I'm not sure why you guys are talking about hypothetical scenarios. He listed links to the coins in question, they are both common date Lincoln cents (1956-D & 1964-D). That said, we will need better photos than NGC's cert photos to tell you if the coins have a shot at MS67.

 

 

[GoldFinger1969]

Getting coins like this into holders that increase the value from $20 to $30 to $500 to $1,000 is very hard. The graders know about increases like this, and they don't give out those lofty grades like pieces of candy. The differences between MS-66 to MS-67 are subtle, and not readily apparent to the average collector's eye. There is also bit of luck involved too, because subjectivity can also play a role. It is my belief, and you can jump on me if you like, that the grading services, especially PCGS, control the number of these coins on the market to support the price structure. If they were to issue too many of these high grade coins, the prices would fall. A lot of the support for these "ultra grade coins" comes from the registry market which a select few are willing to pay very high prices for a "POP 1 coin" based on grade on the holder. For some of these people, the appearance of the coin in the holder is secondary.

And yet, I read on some other message board -- Collectors Universe ? -- where a very well-known collector of Franklin Half Dollars complained that a coin he had sold and was graded without FBL (Full Bell Lines) moved up not 1 but 2 grades over time with FBL. I can't recall the timeframe or the exact increase in the value of the coin but I recall it went up more than 10-fold or something like that and to maybe $20,000 - $40,000.

 

Again, don't quote me but you get the gist.

 

It was a very long thread; I will see if I can find it or if I bookmarked it somewhere. I was reading it not because of interest in Franklins (I don't have any) but for the back-and-forth on gradings. The OP and others were very angry and disgusted about how something like that could move upward by 2 grades and go from an affordable but pricey piece to a super-expensive rarity that only a super-serious collector or a multi-millionaire would pay up for. Of course, the OP also lost out on some serious $$$.

[GoldFinger1969]

Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years.

1995-W PCGS PR-70DCAM ASE is the most prominent example I recall. Maybe five years ago oR so, I believe there were a handful. Today, it is 105. The price is still in the low to mid 20K but well off the one sale of $86K.

Any articles discussing this ? Was it ungraded coins that got submitted or re-submittals?

If the number of the super-rare coin went from only a handful (5? 10 ? 20 ?) to 105, that's a sizeable increase but it's not thousands. I would have thought that with all the people wanting one (and NEEDING one to complete ASE sets) that the price would have not declined by 75% from the highs (but maybe that was a 1-time spike ?).

[GoldFinger1969]

I know the highest price was into 6-figures for at least one 95-W in 70DC. But now, as Mark Feld mentioned, even in PCGS they are under 20K now. One sold at auction 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and if I remember right went for 15K or so. .. this was a PCGS PR70DCam holder. Does anyone know that sometime right about the time the population started increasing exponentially that PCGS started charging $5K per PR70DC that they assigned? While the 95-W silver eagle was $5K for PR70DC, the other moderns were $500 for PR70DC's.... all the sudden early 1970's proof IKE dollars that were next to nonexistent in 70DC started becoming normal in 70DC the top pops for moderns exploded across the board... PCGS made $500 per 70 they assigned on MODERNS. They were selling grades. The fact that this sort of thing happened and nobody talks about it or addresses is mind boggling. In fact, most of you who do not know this probably will not even believe me, but yet it 100% happened.

Novice here.....what do you mean by "PCGS started charging $5K per PR70DC that they assigned" ?

 

What do you mean by "...other moderns were $500 for PR70DCs."

 

I'm not familiar with "assignments" or "the MODERNS = selling grades" things.

 

Any clarity appreciated.

[World Colonial]

Many such coins (including those graded by PCGS) have seen dramatic population increases, and along with them, substantial value decreases, the past couple of years.

1995-W PCGS PR-70DCAM ASE is the most prominent example I recall. Maybe five years ago oR so, I believe there were a handful. Today, it is 105. The price is still in the low to mid 20K but well off the one sale of $86K.

Any articles discussing this ? Was it ungraded coins that got submitted or re-submittals?

If the number of the super-rare coin went from only a handful (5? 10 ? 20 ?) to 105, that's a sizeable increase but it's not thousands. I would have thought that with all the people wanting one (and NEEDING one to complete ASE sets) that the price would have not declined by 75% from the highs (but maybe that was a 1-time spike ?).

 

There have been posts and maybe entire threads covering the 1995-W on the PCGS forum but none recently. My data is from the population reports which I did check prior to the post you quoted and the Heritage archives which I did in the past but not recently.

 

As for the decline in the price, I don't see that the size of the ASE collector base precludes it or makes it unlikely at all.

 

I rank it third after the Morgan dollar and Lincoln cent in "popularity" as measured by the number of collectors but I concurrently believe that the number and proportion which are willing to pay current prices for it is very low proportionately.

 

If anything, that 105 are (or were) graded as a 70 by PCGS with several hundred more by NGC yet the price is so high is an indication of its popularity. I am dubious there is any other coin anywhere that could have anywhere near this count selling for this price.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

If anything, that 105 are (or were) graded as a 70 by PCGS with several hundred more by NGC yet the price is so high is an indication of its popularity. I am dubious there is any other coin anywhere that could have anywhere near this count selling for this price.

Yeah, I guess compared to older/classic coins 105 is a large number. I just thought demand would absorb the increase better and avoid a 75% drop in the price. But you can never tell when a flood of supply hits.

 

I guess there weren't that many ASE collectors in 1995 when they made it so that you had to buy a larger expensive set to get the 1995 ASE huh ? Or maybe they just didn't want to pony up the $$$ for the other stuff.

[dragon]

I know the highest price was into 6-figures for at least one 95-W in 70DC. But now, as Mark Feld mentioned, even in PCGS they are under 20K now. One sold at auction 2 maybe 3 weeks ago and if I remember right went for 15K or so. .. this was a PCGS PR70DCam holder. Does anyone know that sometime right about the time the population started increasing exponentially that PCGS started charging $5K per PR70DC that they assigned? While the 95-W silver eagle was $5K for PR70DC, the other moderns were $500 for PR70DC's.... all the sudden early 1970's proof IKE dollars that were next to nonexistent in 70DC started becoming normal in 70DC the top pops for moderns exploded across the board... PCGS made $500 per 70 they assigned on MODERNS. They were selling grades. The fact that this sort of thing happened and nobody talks about it or addresses is mind boggling. In fact, most of you who do not know this probably will not even believe me, but yet it 100% happened.

 

 

 

This is the first time I've heard this but in view of PCGS' long track record in a basically unregulated industry it really doesn't surprise me.