Rim Marks on Cheek

[Hack]

The coin below is a hard to find 1880 PL MS64 NGC. The seller is asking full retail for the coin. My concern is the rim marks on the cheek. Are the rim marks a big negative on resale? Would CAC approve a coin with rim marks on the cheek?

 

If you needed this coin for your collection, would you pass or buy the coin?

 

[Hard Times]

That is a blatant rim gouge on the cheek. With 100s (1000s, or?.......) of examples to choose from, you can wait and choose the perfect one. Is this it?

 

Best, HT

[brg5658]

Maybe it's my OCD, but the carbon spot on the reverse arrow under the eagle would also bother me long term. Not a super common coin in PL as far as the Morgan series goes, but I think for full retail you can probably find a nicer example with which you'd have no qualms.

 

I do think the old adage is valid:

 

"If something bothers you a little when you buy it, it will only bother you more the longer you own it".

 

 

...and by the way, happy holidays!

[bsshog40]

 

I do think the old adage is valid:

 

"If something bothers you a little when you buy it, it will only bother you more the longer you own it".

 

 

...and by the way, happy holidays!

 

[cpm9ball]

I'm with Brandon. If it bothers you now, it will continue to bother you in the future. I think you should wait until a better example comes along.

 

Personally, I try to avoid any with reed marks in a prime focal area.

 

Chris

[Nutmeg Coin]

An excellent coin overall in terms of eye appeal; I would just compare on the HA site. It comes down to price all things considered. These PL coins explode in price as you go up the grading scale and seem to be becoming more popular and generally reed marks don't bother me as much as other impairments.

[Walkerfan]

One small reeding mark doesn't bother me. That coin is consistent for the 64 grade.

 

Two questions:

 

Does it bother YOU?

 

How hard would it be to find another one?

[Hack]

The reeding mark is a distraction to me as I do not have any coins with reeding marks. There are about 150 MS64 PL coins for this date graded between NGC and PCGS, and there are about two of the MS64's that become available each year. I passed on one about 6 months ago that had a few more bag marks on the cheek that was a $100 less and I am kicking myself for not making the buy.

 

The last one at Heritage in January 2014 sold for $399 in a PCGS holder, and this coin is about $65 dollars more.

 

If the coin did not have the reeding mark, I would already of made the purchase at full retail.

[CaptHenway]

You have answered your own question. It bothers you. Do not buy it.

 

[LogPotato]

Maybe it's my OCD, but the carbon spot on the reverse arrow under the eagle would also bother me long term. Not a super common coin in PL as far as the Morgan series goes, but I think for full retail you can probably find a nicer example with which you'd have no qualms.

 

I do think the old adage is valid:

 

"If something bothers you a little when you buy it, it will only bother you more the longer you own it".

 

 

...and by the way, happy holidays!

 

Nailed it.

[Nutmeg Coin]

I recently had two MS63 DPL NGC coins of this date that sold within hours $100 over the GS bid (at the time). Neither of them had much going for them in the way of eye appeal. I would also keep in mind that the PL/DPL standards have gotten tougher in the last 20 years.

[physics-fan3.14]

The reed mark doesn't bother me at all, and is completely fine on a 64 coin. CAC would have no problem with it either (they may, however, have a problem with the carbon spot on the reverse).

 

However, it seems that you have already answered your question - you don't like it, and that is perfectly fine. Just be aware that, at the 64 grade level, the cheek is going to have a number of marks. Finding one with a cleaner cheek may be difficult, and you may have to go up to the 65 level to find one you like.

[johnny9434]

I'm with Brandon. If it bothers you now, it will continue to bother you in the future. I think you should wait until a better example comes along.

 

Personally, I try to avoid any with reed marks in a prime focal area.

 

Chris

+1

[jpcienkus]

In the pictures you've posted, the reed mark does not jump out even though it's in a prime focal area. Typically, I stay away from this type of contact mark; however, I understand the condition rarity of the situation.

 

Like others, I'm more concerned with the carbon spot on the reverse. Do you have the chance to view the coin in hand before purchase or the ability to return the coin if you don't like it?

 

I also agree with Brandon. If you don't like it now, it will only get worse. IMO, part of the fun of the hobby is waiting for the right coin and the excitement when you find exactly what you are looking for, then being able to add it to your collection.

 

I know there isn't a huge population of this date/mm in PL, but adding one that you are already questioning would be a mistake, IMO.

[Hack]

Thanks for the comments. I am going to pass on the coin and wait for an example that is more in line with my collecting goals.

 

 

[MJ]

You have answered your own question. It bothers you. Do not buy it.

 

Combine this with Brandon's comments and you have your answer. Our work is done here

 

Happy New Year!

 

mark

[coinman1794]

This coin is dipped, and shows a black fleck on the reverse where either the acid is eating into the coin, or the toning had been so heavy that it pitted the surface so deeply that the acid could not remove it.

 

Otherwise, the bag marks are consistent with MS64.

[jesbroken]

We all make mistakes and hopefully we learn from these mistakes. Unfortunately, not always. A true numismatist will only buy a coin that truly satisfies their wants and will not fill a blank spot just to fill the spot. Take your time and pick the coin you will want to keep for long term. In these tough times, most all coins will become available to those with patience. Hang in there.

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!

[AHFreak]

This coin is dipped, and shows a black fleck on the reverse where either the acid is eating into the coin, or the toning had been so heavy that it pitted the surface so deeply that the acid could not remove it.

 

Otherwise, the bag marks are consistent with MS64.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. First of all, you have no idea if this coin has been dipped or not. I have dipped a coin or two, (although very rarely as I don't like the unoriginal look much) but I flat guarantee that little, tiny, inconspicuious carbon spot on the reverse would dissolve away in seconds if a little ezest was applied to it. I am also very familiar with what happens when a coin is dipped and then improperly rinsed and I would say that fleck you are seeing is more likely a result of that coin being stapled into a flip and stored that way for a while. The staples many dealers use to put coins in flips will flake off almost microscopic metal shavings that rest on the coins surface and react with the surface inside the flip. I literally see that all the time when I'm at a show and looking at a stack of Morgans in flips, particularly flips where it's obvious they were placed there years ago.

 

I got long winded -sorry, my point was that there is no way for you or anyone to conclude that coin was dipped... based on your logic, if I got ahold of that coin and conserved it professionally, removing any sign of that dark speck or any others that may be on it (using dip), you would not say it was dipped because the spot wouldn't be there to give you that idea... nor would you see any other sign to speak of... a coin that's done right leaves no trace behind, ever. Many coins (not all, but I'd say most) that weren't done right at some point in the past can be properly conserved, stabilized, and saved in such a way that whatever improper something that happened can't be detected anymore.

 

Just my 2 cents

[RWB]

If the OP does not like the coin, then do not buy it. Also, it is a MS63 at best.

[physics-fan3.14]

AH, I think Doug is basing his dipped comment on the fact that the coin is blast white and shows no signs of a patina. I agree with him. The black fleck could easily have formed after the bath.

[coinman1794]

AH, I think Doug is basing his dipped comment on the fact that the coin is blast white and shows no signs of a patina. I agree with him. The black fleck could easily have formed after the bath.

 

Yes, and also the cloudy haze on the upper reverse is a typical sign of toning that was mostly removed, save for what was etched into the surfaces. These are both very typical to see on a dipped Morgan.

 

It's still a decent coin; I was merely attempting to describe the blemish that others had already noted.

 

[coinman1794]

This coin is dipped, and shows a black fleck on the reverse where either the acid is eating into the coin, or the toning had been so heavy that it pitted the surface so deeply that the acid could not remove it.

 

Otherwise, the bag marks are consistent with MS64.

 

I strongly disagree with this statement. First of all, you have no idea if this coin has been dipped or not. I have dipped a coin or two, (although very rarely as I don't like the unoriginal look much) but I flat guarantee that little, tiny, inconspicuious carbon spot on the reverse would dissolve away in seconds if a little ezest was applied to it. I am also very familiar with what happens when a coin is dipped and then improperly rinsed and I would say that fleck you are seeing is more likely a result of that coin being stapled into a flip and stored that way for a while. The staples many dealers use to put coins in flips will flake off almost microscopic metal shavings that rest on the coins surface and react with the surface inside the flip. I literally see that all the time when I'm at a show and looking at a stack of Morgans in flips, particularly flips where it's obvious they were placed there years ago.

 

I got long winded -sorry, my point was that there is no way for you or anyone to conclude that coin was dipped... based on your logic, if I got ahold of that coin and conserved it professionally, removing any sign of that dark speck or any others that may be on it (using dip), you would not say it was dipped because the spot wouldn't be there to give you that idea... nor would you see any other sign to speak of... a coin that's done right leaves no trace behind, ever. Many coins (not all, but I'd say most) that weren't done right at some point in the past can be properly conserved, stabilized, and saved in such a way that whatever improper something that happened can't be detected anymore.

 

Just my 2 cents

 

Only one type of cleaning results in the cloudy stains seen on the upper reverse, where moderate toning was chemically removed, revealing lightly etched surfaces. The heavy dip treatments that would result in this effect will also sometimes leave deposits on the coin that develop into consolidated black spots. These spots are often permanent, and sometimes not even another dip can take them off. It is my opinion, and only an opinion, that this coin is at that stage. The extremely unnatural appearance is also a tell-tale sign of stripped surfaces, as Jason has noted.

 

That said, it's your typical white Morgan, and should have no problem grading as problem free.

[Hack]

I started this thread over a year ago. There has been one 1880 PL in 64 or 65 that I could find that sold. The coin sold on Heritage in march of 2016 and it was not a strong PL coin. The eBay 1880 MS64 PL with reed marks on cheek has been for sale on eBay for over a year without a single price drop. The eBay seller is wearing me out having to look at the coin over and over again during my search for a 1880 MS64 PL. I have not acquired a new coin for my Morgan collection since November of 2015 as I have been stuck on the 1880 PL, but I have busy with my type collection.

[physics-fan3.14]

Yes, coins can often languish on Ebay - especially higher priced coins that are priced a bit above where they should be.

 

I've been watching some coins on Ebay for years (literally, 4 years for one of them).

[Nutmeg Coin]

Ebay started notifying sellers with unsold items for a year plus that maybe they needed to take notice on stale inventory, I forgot the exact words, but saw it on a few items.

 

Option for sellers especially on coins that are plentiful, looking at other selling venues, or lowering the price a little, re-imaging, etc..

[BillJones]

 

I do think the old adage is valid:

 

"If something bothers you a little when you buy it, it will only bother you more the longer you own it".

 

 

...and by the way, happy holidays!

 

 

The time you break that rule is if the item is so rare and hard to find the YOU KNOW you won't see another one for a very long time, perhaps forever, you put up with it. It still has to be something minor like this to work for me. Otherwise I can live without, period.

 

In this case I think that the coin is over graded as an MS-64.

[numisport]

Nice cameo look but one too many heavy hits in the focal area for 64.

[dragon]

So the basic question here is will CAC sticker an MS64 with a somewhat distracting reeding mark on the cheek? Apparently those type of hits don't bother the braintrust at PCGS even at the superb gem grade level.

 

[GoldFinger1969]

An 1880-S MS-67 about to end on Ebay at close to $1,000 (or higher):

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-1-Morgan-Silver-Dollar-NGC-MS67-PL-/142255531742?hash=item211f1726de:g:31gAAOSwjDZYhjwz

 

Seeing lots of 1880-S's for under $200 in MS-64 or so, why ? Even seeing an MS-65 CAC for under $400:

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1880-S-PCGS-MS65PL-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-BLAST-WHITE-CAC-/351957526288?hash=item51f24da710:g:rg4AAOSwjDZYenRq

 

LATE EDIT: Oops.....they're not PL or DMPL, that's why they are cheaper. Sorry !