Numismatic pet peeves

[KMAG100]

I know this is the US Coin board but my ultimate pet peeve is when collectors place US coins on a pedestal over the coins of other nations. Great coins can come from anywhere!

 

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[jerseycat10]

Thanks guys. Luckily, it's been contained to modern junk, and not classic stuff... so far.

[johnny9434]

I know this is the US Coin board but my ultimate pet peeve is when collectors place US coins on a pedestal over the coins of other nations. Great coins can come from anywhere!

 

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[TonerGuy]

Thanks guys. Luckily, it's been contained to modern junk, and not classic stuff... so far.

 

He's working on it. I think a few of the Morgans are AT and he's practicing on Peace $ as well.

 

You should really check out the breadth and scope of his offerings. Its not just modern junk. Its just modern coins that are getting slabbed regularly. Its just a matter of time until more and more classics get into plastic.

[MarkFeld]

This is not the first time you have advocated standardization of something that does not lend itself well to such labels. And by the way, a coin that is only one color can be just as toned as one that is multiple colors. So I already disagree with your above standardization.

 

You are correct and Im not going to stop. As long as dealers control this situation newb collectors in the toned segment of the market will continue to be ripped off. Im getting tired of seeing the AT coins on Ebay, dealers marking their prices up based on blatant puffery or outright lies, and TPGs allowing blatantly questionable coins into their slabs.

 

I could have missed it but werent you on a committee with Laura from Legend that was working on something about doctoring ? Whatever happened with that ? Honestly I do not know.

 

All standardization can be objected to. Its the nature of drawing bright lines. Why can 18 year olds sign contracts, die in wars and vote but they cant drink until 21. It makes no sense to me, but we have decided for some reason we want people to be 21 until they can legally buy alcohol in this country. Its a bright line standardization that makes no sense to most.

 

I, too, am bothered by things you noted above. But I don't think standardization of toning descriptions would have any meaningful impact on any of that.

 

As I recall, the committee you asked about was asked to come up with a workable definition of coin doctoring to be adopted by the PNG. We did and I believe that it was.

 

[TonerGuy]

As I recall, the committee you asked about was asked to come up with a workable definition of coin doctoring to be adopted by the PNG. We did and I believe that it was.

 

Is this the statement ?

 

To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.

 

If so, how are the sentences in bold not contradictory ? The use of Jeweluster is the altering/moving metal off the surface of the coin so that it appears move valuable then it otherwise would be (removing toning to expose luster so as to help increase the eye appeal and the possible grade of the coin).

 

If its not the statement you worked on I couldnt find it on the PNG website so it might not have been adopted or its not easily located for publicly review and comment.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Not that it is my business, but Mr. Feld was very explanatory about the committee process, his involvement and the goal of the committee and his determination to represent all interested persons and he publicly invited input from Collectors, Dealers and interested Parties, at the time. The Thread can be found ATS. It was a long time ago. Be prepared for a long reading night. It was very informative. Follow on Threads (updates if you will) were also posted from time to time, iirc.

 

Parts of the statement you refer to was part of that Thread as I recall. I know, because I recognize certain wording (mine), and I recognize the wording that Mr. Feld presented persuasive argument to retain for the basis of clarity. That same statement you are referring to was also on this Forum not so long ago, but was used in a grading discussion, I think.

[jerseycat10]

Please don't let this thread turn into a debate about dipping and cleaning. Let's stay on topic.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Please don't let this thread turn into a debate about dipping and cleaning. Let's stay on topic.

 

I know, right?

[MarkFeld]

As I recall, the committee you asked about was asked to come up with a workable definition of coin doctoring to be adopted by the PNG. We did and I believe that it was.

 

Is this the statement ?

 

To refrain from knowingly dealing in counterfeit, altered, repaired or "doctored" numismatic items without fully disclosing their status to my customer. Coin doctoring refers to the alteration of any portion of a coin, when that process includes any of the following: 1) Movement, addition to, or otherwise altering of metal, so that a coin appears to be in a better state of preservation, or more valuable than it otherwise would be. A few examples are plugging, whizzing, polishing, engraving, "lasering" and adding or removing mint marks. 2) Addition of any substance to a coin so that it appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. The use of solvents and/or commercially available dilute acids, such as Jeweluster, by qualified professionals is not considered coin doctoring. 3) Intentional exposure of a coin to any chemicals, substances, or processes which impart toning, such that the coin appears to be in a better state of preservation or more valuable than it otherwise would be. Naturally occuring toning imparted during long-term storage using established/traditional methods, such as coin albums, rolls, flips, or envelopes, does not constitute coin doctoring.

 

If so, how are the sentences in bold not contradictory ? The use of Jeweluster is the altering/moving metal off the surface of the coin so that it appears move valuable then it otherwise would be (removing toning to expose luster so as to help increase the eye appeal and the possible grade of the coin).

 

If its not the statement you worked on I couldnt find it on the PNG website so it might not have been adopted or its not easily located for publicly review and comment.

 

That looks like it. The second bold is an exception that was carved out of the first bold. I and some other committee members were opposed to that, but like it or not, a great many collectors and dealers do not consider dipping to be (unacceptable) coin doctoring.

[TonerGuy]

Please don't let this thread turn into a debate about dipping and cleaning. Let's stay on topic.

 

Sorry... he asked for pet peeves... I hate when collectors and dealers say that dipping isnt doctoring...

 

Dipping is doctoring... by PNG's own statement and backed by science it is clear that dipping is doctoring but then this gets back to my first statement - dealers running the hen-house...

 

This is what happens when you have dealers trying to be ethical and self regulate - they carve out an exception because some of them want to continue to dip coins and the PNG doesnt want to lose membership. So ethics are bent...

 

BTW this is not a statement about Mark Feld, he truly is the most remarkable, ethical person (not just former coin dealer) I know...

 

According to Charlie Browne, former PCGS grader, as stated in CoinWeek...

 

Importantly, “a lot of dipping is done because it is easier for dealers to sell an artificially bright coin to beginners and investors. Most dealers do not want to take the time to educate coin buyers. Some do not want sophisticated customers. In my experience, almost all sophisticated collectors desire naturally toned coins, not recently dipped brilliant coins,”

 

http://www.coinweek.com/featured-news/understanding-classic-u-s-coins-building-excellent-coin-collections-part-2-dipped-coins/

 

[MJ]

The over use of the term " monster" especially one describing their own coins

 

mark

[Weidel Legacy Collection]

Meanwhile, back to pet peeves -

1. Slabs that have any manner of unnecessary stickers placed on them

2. Slabs that have the residue from the same removed unnecessary stickers

3. Slabs that are scratched and scraped so much they look like they were dragged across the pavement

[mumu]

When people describe their coin as the best whatever. Like delusional parents talking about their kid.

[Critter8880]

Collectors who are full of themselves and think that their set is the best set ever, and what they collect tops all.

people who exhibit the negative qualities of nationalism through their attitudes in coin collecting.

Collectors who don't take time to educate themselves or lack the desire.

eBay pics with low lighting, lighting that doesn't fairly represent the coin, or just generally blurry pics of a desirable coin.

[rockhobby]

The first would be the 4FS designation used on Ebay for some Jefferson nickels. It is is bullpucky that every time you look up fullstep or fs on Ebay that this drivel shows up.

 

The second is ;

Being the underbidder on Heritage/GreatCollection auctions to dealers who proceed to apply a 200% markup to the coin and list it on eBay

 

 

 

 

Doug

 

[PocketArt]

Raw coins advertised for sale in various coin magazines that are deliberately misrepresented on condition to cheat buyers out of more money. For example,dipped XF wheat pennies sold as BU. This happened to me, along with purchasing some buffalo nickles that were sold as BU but were definitely VF-XF. Very disappointing, not only were the coins natural patina destroyed along with it's value, I paid uncirculated prices for junk. Lesson learned!

[MarkFeld]

The one that is foremost on my mind right now is when an Ebay seller floods Ebay with Artificially Toned garbage, referring to it as naturally toned. There is a guy on Ebay right now who has been doing this for a couple months but seems to have just taken it to a whole other level. .. the seller is "Edynamicmarketing", his stuff is so blatantly AT, yet he states in every listing that it's NT, and it all the same... all AT garbage. Does anyone know who this is? He is a clown and he needs help.... that's my current pet peeve.

I wish there was a way to block a sellers items from coming up in my search results. .. I'm sooooooo sick of looking at his junk..

 

There is a way to block the listings of particular sellers so that you don't see them in your search results.

[AHFreak]

Really Mark? Please tell me more about this. Sometime after I replied this thread earlier I got on Ebay and the guy has added 10 X's more then ever before. ... his stuff is blatantly Artificial. These are coins that don't even look good mind you, coins that he calls beautifully naturally toned.

[bsshog40]

My pet peeve are with those that are members of coin forums, that the only time you see them post is when they have to show off thier new purchases, and never contribute to the forums in any other way.

[jpcienkus]

1) Unethical Coin Dealers

 

2) That coins in only one certification companies holder are graded properly, everything else is off a point or two.

 

Edited: add second point and delineate the two thoughts.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

My pet peeve are with those that are members of coin forums, that the only time you see them post is when they have to show off thier new purchases, and never contribute to the forums in any other way.

 

 

[leeg]

Members here post negative information towards another member when a PM should take care of things.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Members here post negative information towards another member when a PM should take care of things.

 

 

That is a worthwhile peeve, and a peeve that everyone should take a stand against.

[bsshog40]

I think I can add a couple others also.

 

People who start threads complaining about sellers on ebay asking too much for thier coins! It is thier property and they can ask what they want to.

Also, people who knock others that have low value coins graded. I think its ok to give advice that its not cost worthy instead of telling someone that they are wasting thier money. Its thier money.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I think I can add a couple others also.

 

People who start threads complaining about sellers on ebay asking too much for thier coins! It is thier property and they can ask what they want to.

Also, people who knock others that have low value coins graded. I think its ok to give advice that its not cost worthy instead of telling someone that they are wasting thier money. Its thier money.

 

Very well said.

 

I would have just edited to read "Any mention about ebay for any reason".

[bsshog40]

I think I can add a couple others also.

 

People who start threads complaining about sellers on ebay asking too much for thier coins! It is thier property and they can ask what they want to.

Also, people who knock others that have low value coins graded. I think its ok to give advice that its not cost worthy instead of telling someone that they are wasting thier money. Its thier money.

 

Very well said.

 

I would have just edited to read "Any mention about ebay for any reason".

 

Well I don't see a problem with warning people about bad sellers and buyers. As long as its legitimate and not an unproven accusation.

[Catbert]

As I thought about the OP's question, I was challenged to identify something that bothered me much about our terrific hobby. The only thing that comes to mind are my dislike of the white prongs in the NGC holder. They are a distraction for my eye, in hand and when viewing photos.

 

A worry versus a peeve is that I'm concerned that the hobby will slowly die since our youth (in large enough numbers) will not continue our hobby given their apparent lack of interest. I believe this to be exacerbated due to our continued stagnant economy.

 

[johnny9434]

shady coin dealers who think they are doing you a service. just saying.

[MarkFeld]

Really Mark? Please tell me more about this. Sometime after I replied this thread earlier I got on Ebay and the guy has added 10 X's more then ever before. ... his stuff is blatantly Artificial. These are coins that don't even look good mind you, coins that he calls beautifully naturally toned.

 

I haven't done it in a long time, but I believe you can go to "refine your search" and use a minus sign, followed by the seller's Ebay name in your search box. That should prevent listings from that seller or those sellers from showing up.