From ATS - Counterfeit Coins in NGC, PCGS and ANACs slabs...

[Conder101]

What is the likelihood, percent-wise, that any one of your 20 coins is counterfeit?

It would depend on when they were purchased and what generation of slabs they were in. One purchased awhile back in an older generation holder VERY low. One purchased in the past month in a recent but not the latest generation holder has a much greater chance but still very low. One purchased in a couple years...??

 

 

I think the other surface issues you mention are much easier to mimic than is AT that truly looks NT. It comes down to why bother if you can get non-toned coins pass the graders this easily.

But nicely toned coins can bring multiples of what untoned coins, so it makes the possibility more lucrative

 

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[TonerGuy]

And further more why would a so-called "expert AT'er" share that knowledge to increase his competition ? And in essence put himself out of business once the TPGs pick up on the tell-tale signs.

 

The expert AT'er in my scenario wouldn't share his knowledge - he would source his coins from the Chinese and AT them himself. He would then sell them as genuine toned coins.

 

Perhaps. Assuming he could get the toning and the counterfeit coin past the graders.

 

However I find several scenarios very unlikely for the Chinese... artifical toning, copying older slabs and counterfeiting modern coins. Ive known a lot of criminals and usually they like the easy road.

 

I think older coins that dont have the detail of more modern coins are easier to replicate. Why bother to fake older slabs when you are getting counterfeit coins into the newest slabs. And why bother buying counterfeit coins when a good AT'er can simply take a real, low-value coin - add some color, get it into a slab and make a decent profit margin anyway. Seems counterproductive to complicate the likelihood for success for a good AT'er.

[physics-fan3.14]

copying older slabs and counterfeiting modern coins. Ive known a lot of criminals and usually they like the easy road.

 

I think older coins that dont have the detail of more modern coins are easier to replicate. Why bother to fake older slabs when you are getting counterfeit coins into the newest slabs. And why bother buying counterfeit coins when a good AT'er can simply take a real, low-value coin - add some color, get it into a slab and make a decent profit margin anyway. Seems counterproductive to complicate the likelihood for success for a good AT'er.

 

I would actually think it would be easier for the determined counterfeiter to reproduce earlier generation slabs. Modern slabs have far more complicated protective features - it would be much easier to replicate an earlier slab. Also, because I'm guessing many people think the way that you do, earlier generations would be easier to pass off than a newer one. It would thus seem more profitable, and easier, for a counterfeiter to reproduce a fatty or an OGH than a modern slab. I'm really surprised we haven't seen more of that, and I'm guessing it has more to do with the counterfeiters unfamiliarity with collectors and the market than their ability.

[oldcollectorcoins]

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some good replies here.

 

what this whole situation is missing, is more facts.

 

some of the coins are obvious, the others need some guidance if they are or are not authentic. given the whole situation, the odds are against.

 

i've done some legwork to assist in the next step(s) but it will take some good effort to make some accurate calls.

 

i did not see even ONE post here (in this thread anyway) speaking of diagnostics to confirm or deny any of the pieces.

 

the raw 27s 25c has an overall questionable look but what i saw w/o doing a side-by-side with an accepted high-grade authentic piece is the mushy head, trvst and a couple other things ive since forgot. the $3 gold is fairly obvious. the 1798 large cent pictured in that cu thread is a lynchpin imo.

 

those patterns should be easy enough to figure out. i only have so much time and experience with them or i would have proven or disproven, even from those images.

 

also, host coin images are needed. will be tough but doable to track down?

 

i myself have posted some things that could be/need be done.

 

yet again, i remain disappointed.

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[Max Spiegel]

I just wanted to post to let everyone know that we at NGC have seen these posts and are aware of this situation. Thankfully, it is extremely rare that NGC mistakenly grades a counterfeit coin. However, we are human and we do occasionally make a mistake. When we make a mistake, collectors and dealers can turn to the NGC Guarantee, which provides several options for recourse in the event that we mistakenly graded a counterfeit coin or over-graded a coin. This guarantee is designed to give buyers of NGC-certified coins peace of mind knowing that we stand behind our services. A copy of this guarantee can be found at NGCcoin.com/Guarantee.

 

As far as the specific coins mentioned in the original thread, we will post an article with diagnostic images and descriptions of two counterfeits that we have identified to NGCcoin.com within the next few days. Not all of the coins in these few submissions were counterfeit, and most were not graded, but there were a handful of deceptive forgeries.

[RWB]

"When we make a mistake, collectors and dealers can turn to the NGC Guarantee, which provides several options for recourse in the event that we mistakenly graded a counterfeit coin or over-graded a coin. This guarantee is designed to give buyers of NGC-certified coins peace of mind knowing that we stand behind our services."

 

This says it all!

[nk1nk]

Between the two threads I had hoped a representative of either TPG company would address the issue. Thank you Max for your reply.

 

Nick

[PaulS.]

Here's an article regarding two of these counterfeits identified by NGC.

 

 

 

-Paul

[PO01 Commem]

I posted on the thread ats about a circulated commem that was in a PCGS holder genuine/cleaned It didn't look cleaned so I cracked it out and tried it again. It came back as counterfeit. I called to ask about my options and they said since I cracked it out there was nothing they would do. Now my question is how are you going to tell if it's counterfeit if it's already graded unless you have a very good eye.

[TonerGuy]

Here's an article regarding two of these counterfeits identified by NGC.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Great article but it doesnt address all of the issues raised in the original thread ATS...

 

Does this mean that the Trade and Seated $ that were identified as potential counterfeits were actually authentic or were they also counterfeited utilizing the same process ?

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Why do the NGC cert look-ups for the coins in question say "Contact Customer Service" rather than stating that the coins are counterfeits?

[RWB]

Why do the NGC cert look-ups for the coins in question say "Contact Customer Service" rather than stating that the coins are counterfeits?

 

The staff at NGC are soooooo good, that the Customer Service folks have little to do and feel left out and sad. This way, they have a little human contact and do not feel isolated, or throw themselves into an alligator-infested canal.

 

[PaulS.]

Here's an article regarding two of these counterfeits identified by NGC.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Great article but it doesnt address all of the issues raised in the original thread ATS...

 

Does this mean that the Trade and Seated $ that were identified as potential counterfeits were actually authentic or were they also counterfeited utilizing the same process ?

 

 

 

 

No, they are suspect as well, but would have to be seen in hand to know for sure. On the other hand, there were other examples of the 1798 large cent and 1803 half cent that we were able to track down online. Those other examples revealed repeating marks and depressions that prove they are indeed not genuine.

 

 

-Paul

[TonerGuy]

Here's an article regarding two of these counterfeits identified by NGC.

 

 

 

-Paul

 

Great article but it doesnt address all of the issues raised in the original thread ATS...

 

Does this mean that the Trade and Seated $ that were identified as potential counterfeits were actually authentic or were they also counterfeited utilizing the same process ?

 

 

 

No, they are suspect as well, but would have to be seen in hand to know for sure. On the other hand, there were other examples of the 1798 large cent and 1803 half cent that we were able to track down online. Those other examples revealed repeating marks and depressions that prove they are indeed not genuine.

 

 

-Paul

 

Thank you for the clarification and good work getting on top of this. I see that PCGS is still yet to address the issue publicly.

[oldcollectorcoins]

Why do the NGC cert look-ups for the coins in question say "Contact Customer Service" rather than stating that the coins are counterfeits?

 

The staff at NGC are soooooo good, that the Customer Service folks have little to do and feel left out and sad. This way, they have a little human contact and do not feel isolated, or throw themselves into an alligator-infested canal.

 

 

rotfl

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

tx for the info and links recently. a few steps at a time.

 

edited to add:

 

for those that didnt see or click the link at the bottom of the article, here ya GO.

 

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

 

Why do the NGC cert look-ups for the coins in question say "Contact Customer Service" rather than stating that the coins are counterfeits?

 

from what i saw/recall, those coins needed to be verified one way or the other.

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[nk1nk]

I was wondering and maybe it's common knowledge but what does NGC do with a coin they consider to be counterfeit? Do they slab it and label it not genuine and return it to the submitter or do they just return it raw? Do they have any obligation with US counterfeits to confiscate and turn them I nto authorities? I ask this because ATS they mentioned a few more die transfer coins discovered, one in an ANACS slab and one in an ICG slab, it got me wondering if these coins had been sent to NGC or PCGS first and they didn't slab so they got submitted to these other TPG's.

 

Nick

[Conder101]

All of the TPG's return them raw with the possible exception of ICG. They do have a program where they slab counterfeits and mark them as such for educational purposes. I know they do that with contemporary counterfeits but I don't know if they holder modern fakes as well.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

ATS, Arizona Rare Coins has brought to light another counterfeit coin, a 1910 $10 Indian, MS 65, NGC.

 

It looks like it is on Ebay, has 4 bids at the moment, probably one bidder acting as a shill. The coin is located in Tel Aviv.

 

This is an interesting lesson, and worth taking the time to analyze. What you do is you get two screens up and running on your computer; one screen will be the counterfeit coin's images that can be found wherever, the other screen will be the NGC Verification number look-up screen.

 

Blow the comparison of the two up as large as you like and take the time to compare each side's images. The counterfeit coin's NGC number looks nothing like the NGC Verification number, and it also has the "fuzzy edges" appearance, at high blow up scale, of poor photo-shopping.

 

Then, compare the spacings of the letters in general, and also the bar code hash marks. Really awful. Arizona Rare Coins made the comment that it is pathetic! I don't think anyone can state it better.

 

Go to edges of the holders, and there are always unique distinctions, perhaps built into NGC's security—random selection of holder plastic security that we know nothing about, but perhaps NGC knows exactly what random attributes can do to aid them in identifying their genuine holders—which also clearly show that the side by side comparisons do not jive with each other.

 

Then you have the actual coin images. Not even close. NGC's Verification image shows a sharply defined coin, the counterfeit coin is all mush, and frankly, an intentionally blurry image, but still a mushy coin.

 

Best regards to Arizona Rare Coins, and thank you.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Pulled.

 

As johnny9434 put it, "poof and glad of it."

 

Still, an excellent teachable moment for me, to help me figure out how some forum members, of any forum, can so astutely identify the counterfeits.

[MarkFeld]

ATS, Arizona Rare Coins has brought to light another counterfeit coin, a 1910 $10 Indian, MS 65, NGC.

 

It looks like it is on Ebay, has 4 bids at the moment, probably one bidder acting as a shill. The coin is located in Tel Aviv.

 

This is an interesting lesson, and worth taking the time to analyze. What you do is you get two screens up and running on your computer; one screen will be the counterfeit coin's images that can be found wherever, the other screen will be the NGC Verification number look-up screen.

 

Blow the comparison of the two up as large as you like and take the time to compare each side's images. The counterfeit coin's NGC number looks nothing like the NGC Verification number, and it also has the "fuzzy edges" appearance, at high blow up scale, of poor photo-shopping.

 

Then, compare the spacings of the letters in general, and also the bar code hash marks. Really awful. Arizona Rare Coins made the comment that it is pathetic! I don't think anyone can state it better.

 

Go to edges of the holders, and there are always unique distinctions, perhaps built into NGC's security—random selection of holder plastic security that we know nothing about, but perhaps NGC knows exactly what random attributes can do to aid them in identifying their genuine holders—which also clearly show that the side by side comparisons do not jive with each other.

 

Then you have the actual coin images. Not even close. NGC's Verification image shows a sharply defined coin, the counterfeit coin is all mush, and frankly, an intentionally blurry image, but still a mushy coin.

 

Best regards to Arizona Rare Coins, and thank you.

 

It was a 1910-D and I was the "winning" bidder today - at least in one of its appearances. Despite my $15,000 bid, for some reason, the seller ended the auction early to sell it to me for $699.99 (without my asking him to do so). The listing was subsequently removed by Ebay.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

Yes, it was a "D," and congratulations on your "winning" bid.

 

I'm sure the "seller" was delighted with your "irrational exuberance," at first.

 

 

But then, maybe not.

[Conder101]

Counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs have been around since 2007, The point of this thread was counterfeit coins showing up in GENUINE third party grading service slabs.

[USAuPzlBxBob]

I feel so ashamed, and terribly embarrassed.

 

Let this be a lesson to me.

[Rickey]

Has there been any pre 1933 counterfeit gold found in authentic TPG holders?