Ego & Vanity vs Principles & Integrity posted by walnutto

[CSJournals-migration]

What would you do?

 

I could easily be NGC Best in Category for the Presidential Mint State series. All I would need to do is buy the two 2011 MS69's available on Ebay and I would be in the lead. The price is not too bad for either of those Presidents either.

 

Here's the issue: I could sell out my principles and integrity for what is simply for Ego and Vanity. Awards are nice but if it all it takes is who has the most money in the end to win, its not much of an accomplishment. And, in hundred years, would anyone care? The bigger issue is the dealer is not big on honesty or integrity. If I buy these two President dollars from him, I am losing my values and condoning the business practices.

 

So for the record, I could capture the Best in Category Award this year but I choose to live with myself and make a statement. No dealer should be allowed to add designations to coins just to increase the selling price. No dealer should be allowed to "create" their own CAC type label that carries no value and tarnishes all dealers that make that effort every day to be fair to the new coin collector.

 

What would you do?

 

See more journals by walnutto

[CaptBrian]

I have received many awards from NGC. Every one I bragged about, every one I love to show off at coin shows. (Isn't that what coin shows are for?) I will continue to use every tool in my bag to enhance my collection as some of my journals show.

 

BUT B U T !!!

 

Every single one of my awards were like having a baby you did not plan for. Usually those are the best. I have not won much during my life, which is about as generic as all the rest of the folks I know.

 

I will never be president, nor will I be made a deacon or pope. I will never be made the Man of the hour nor be 'roasted' as it were.

 

So, when a new baby arrives in the mail, like my coin awards or the writers award, it is like a gift from God.

 

I cherish my accomplishments and try to share them with others. It isn't a brag if its fact.

 

So, my fine new friend. I urge you to bask in whatever light you can shine upon yourself. Life's accomplishments are far too few to hide any under a basket.

 

As long as you got those 'awards' fair and square. why hide your light? . Go for it.

 

Now if it would make you feel better, I have some 'president' coins. If you would share them with me what you need, if I have them, they are yours at no cost.

 

Hows that?

 

Your new friend

Capt Brian.

[Mohawk]

Walnutto,

From the sounds of the dealer you are speaking of, you are absolutely making the right decision. An unscrupulous dealer does not deserve your business, and I would say that maintaining your principals and integrity are hugely more important than any Registry awards could ever be.

 

It is important for us as numismatists to avoid dealers that are unscrupulous and harm the hobby. With the advent of CAC, there are so many copycat stickers out there. I really feel that the vast majority of these are simply out to take advantage of buyers who do not know that these stickers are not accepted nor respected like those of CAC. Personally, I dislike all of the stickers, even CAC, but at least CAC is truly a Third-Party organization.

 

These other stickers are being applied by the dealers selling the coins in most cases. And what are these guys going to say about the coins they're selling? Of course they're going to say that they're the best, most premium coins available! Why would they say anything else? They want your money and as much of it as they can get. Someone who would make up a sticker to deceive people will continue to be deceptive in describing and pricing their coins.

 

There are a lot of really great sellers of coins of all kinds out there in the market today and many advertise right here in the Money Marketplace. With all of the good guys that are out there, there is no need to patronize a bad dealer. I'm speaking from experience. I've run across some bad dealers in my time, and I wouldn't give any of them one cent even if they had the biggest dream coin of mine for a deal I could never get again. You're definitely making the right call in this case.

[Electric Peak]

I'm with Tom on this one. If you have reason to think a dealer is less than honest, then don't support him/her. It's truly a rare instance when such a dealer is the only source you'll ever have for a coin you want. Be patient, and keep looking. The Hunt is a big part of the fun of this hobby. Enjoy it!

 

As for the registry - sure, the competition can be fun too, but don't take it too seriously. I currently have a #1 set (Liberty Seated Half Dimes), but I know it is not, and most likely never will be as good as the Gardner set, or the Simpson/Law set (which includes the 1870-S, and is currently being offered as a set), or others that have been or will be assembled. Should I be proud of my set? Yes! But should I brag about it like I'm the world's greatest half dime collector? No... and not just because I'm not. I should be grateful that God has blessed me with the resources to indulge myself at the level I do. Hopefully it will turn out to be a good investment, and a vehicle for making connections with others in our hobby.

 

Alan

[Critter8880]

Hey Walnutto,

I'm with Electic Peak and Mohawk. Don't buy from unscrupulous sellers. When I first started out I did and I learned hard and fast what cleaned, whizzed, and altered purple labels meant I learned some tough and expensive lessons the hard way. It made me a better collector, but not through positive experiences. I broke ties with that dealer, and I found two other great shops in my area with the nicest people behind the counter, and now my collection is better than ever.

[CSdot]

"I could easily be NGC Best in Category for the Presidential Mint State series. All I would need to do is buy the two 2011 MS69's available on Ebay and I would be in the lead. The price is not too bad for either of those Presidents either."

 

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I am confused? What is the Presidential Mint Series? Are you talking about MS examples of the Presidential Dollars, or something else? If the Presidential Dollars, then why buy from a dealer you think has questionable ethics, when surely Presidential Dollars in MS69 or 70 are available elsewhere?

 

If the Presidential Mint State series means something entirely different, then I apologize for my ignorance, and look forward to being enlightened on this series.

 

[Six Mile Rick]

I believe that I saw those 2 president dollars for sale a few weeks ago. First off the stickers he added look hideous on the slabs. I know he or she adds these to most of the slabs they sell and if they had any registry wise intelligence they would know that those coins would sell without those stickers added.

 

Rick

[RWB]

"MACK stickers" .... Hmmmm, sounds "cheesy."

[Six Mile Rick]

Wonder how easy those stickers peel off the slabs?

[coinman1794]

"I could easily be NGC Best in Category for the Presidential Mint State series. All I would need to do is buy the two 2011 MS69's available on Ebay and I would be in the lead. The price is not too bad for either of those Presidents either."

 

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I am confused? What is the Presidential Mint Series? Are you talking about MS examples of the Presidential Dollars, or something else? If the Presidential Dollars, then why buy from a dealer you think has questionable ethics, when surely Presidential Dollars in MS69 or 70 are available elsewhere?

 

If the Presidential Mint State series means something entirely different, then I apologize for my ignorance, and look forward to being enlightened on this series.

 

Business Strike Presidential Dollars are very rare, and basically, they are not available anywhere.

 

2011 happens to be the most common date (by far) to find in MS69, but the NGC populations are as follows:

 

Johnson-D = 3

Grant-P = 3

Grant-D = 2

Hays-P = 4

Hays-D = 8

 

The OP is very vague and while it is presumed that he does not like the dealer selling the coins, no real information is provided, other than that he puts stickers on his slabs. Therefore, one cannot properly answer the OP question.

[RichH]

Oh for goodness sake Walnutto, buy the coins.

 

Its not like you are entering into a long term relationship with this dealer. If you think these particular coins are fairly valued for both price and grade then buy them.

 

If you were ripped off previously by the dealer then sure, be cautious in dealing with him.

 

I have enough problems finding the right coins without adding a dealer morality criteria to the purchase.

 

Caveat emptor !

 

Rich

[MarkFeld]

Oh for goodness sake Walnutto, buy the coins.

 

Its not like you are entering into a long term relationship with this dealer. If you think these particular coins are fairly valued for both price and grade then buy them.

 

If you were ripped off previously by the dealer then sure, be cautious in dealing with him.

 

I have enough problems finding the right coins without adding a dealer morality criteria to the purchase.

 

Caveat emptor !

 

Rich

 

There's nothing wrong with refusing to do business with someone, based on principle. I applaud it.

[brg5658]

With regard to the seller in question, I would not buy from them.

 

With regard to your Presidential MS set -- RHF has had that set "locked up" for a very long time, and two MS69 coins from 2011 would not put you in first place. That being said, I think your collection is a splendid one, and it doesn't really matter if it's "first"...

 

Just my 2 cents...

[RichH]

I guess I am of the opinion that dealers that continually display unethical behavior will eventually exit the marketplace.

Certainly if I know a dealer over grades etc I I'm very cautious. That's why knowledge is key , it protects the buyer from "bad sellers".

Let me ask this, "What if this unethical dealer now is in financial trouble and he must sell say a $100K coin at half price. Do I pass ? What about 10K ? 5K ? "

I have no idea what Pct of dealers exhibit "bad behavior" just know that I need to be an educated buyer.

I say market forces will eventually weed out an unscrupulous dealer.

 

Rich

[MarkFeld]

I guess I am of the opinion that dealers that continually display unethical behavior will eventually exit the marketplace.

Certainly if I know a dealer over grades etc I I'm very cautious. That's why knowledge is key , it protects the buyer from "bad sellers".

Let me ask this, "What if this unethical dealer now is in financial trouble and he must sell say a $100K coin at half price. Do I pass ? What about 10K ? 5K ? "

I have no idea what Pct of dealers exhibit "bad behavior" just know that I need to be an educated buyer.

I say market forces will eventually weed out an unscrupulous dealer.

 

Rich

 

I know of unethical dealers who have been business for decades and have no doubt that the same applies in other industries, too.

 

And if you're going to refuse to deal with someone on principle, in your hypothetical, it shouldn't matter if he's offering bad, fair, good or great deals.

[RichH]

Mark,

You are absolutely correct, I dealt with many sales reps that were totally unethical. The issue is that if they offered a product unique with a business advantage, you were in a bad situation. Failing to deal could result in competitive disadvantage. Say I didn't deal, my company loses sales, profits, and down the road possibly jobs, not a good outcome.

I can't look at reasons to be outraged all the time.

Finally, yes,if the OP wouldn't take the coins at 10% then good for him, he is indeed consistent in his values.

Rich

[MarkFeld]

Mark,

You are absolutely correct, I dealt with many sales reps that were totally unethical. The issue is that if they offered a product unique with a business advantage, you were in a bad situation. Failing to deal could result in competitive disadvantage. Say I didn't deal, my company loses sales, profits, and down the road possibly jobs, not a good outcome.

I can't look at reasons to be outraged all the time.

Finally, yes,if the OP wouldn't take the coins at 10% then good for him, he is indeed consistent in his values.

Rich

 

Rich, I understand the dilemma you outlined and the need to make decisions that aren't necessarily what you want to do. I've been there and sometimes done business with people I'd prefer not to and wouldn't deal with if the decision were my own.

[RWB]

Some of the "biggest names" in old-time numismatics were variously "shady," "shoddy," or allegedly involved in counterfeiting and production of fakes.

[RichH]

That is a great point RWB. Have organizations such as the ANA or PNG become more effective or vigilant in protecting collectors over time ?

[Lucky One]

I would ignore the unscrupulous seller too, I think your integrity and self-worth are much more valuable than another #1 set of anything. Good post, I wonder how readers will line up on this one, and I agree with you- the registry forums are full of egos but if you asked some of them questions about true circulating issues they wouldn't have the first clue. This seems to be more for the grading companies than for the collectors. I predict they will make a lot more money over the long haul than anyone invested in modern mass produced super bullion rounds...

[Lucky One]

I agree with you on one thing Cap- like Ali used to say "you can talk the talk if you can walk the walk". That said, I'm not sure you understood his dillemma- he feels, and I concur, that he would be lowering his own high standards to deal with a less than honorable ebay seller. I wouldn't and have said goodbye to several ebay scumbags over the years. We all should boycott those who trash our hobby even if it means not profiting on something or not benefitting in some way. As for ebay doing anything about it- ben there and done that. In the old days, I helped to expose dozens of scammers and had a few especially predatory scumbags thrown off ebay, but they always come back under a new identity. From what I understand, ebay has given up on going after them and has made it so difficult to track them that no one I know even tries any more, even more reason to never deal with that type of dealer in my humble opinion.

[Lucky One]

you stole my thoughts, all of them! Couldn't agree more my friend.

[Lucky One]

I'm liking the replies to this comment more than the comment itself! Again, I couldn't agree more, and I think your humble tone is worth more than the collection itself. Fine set by the way, this is what collecting is all about. I like to look at past great collections and dream like I did as a child. I have accomplished a lot more than my humble beginnings suggested I would and although I am up against such a superior set in the NGC registry category I collect, I have no envy and don't care that I will never be able to be #1. In fact, I have corresponded with the gentleman who owns it and he is as humble as you are, both of you true collectors and numismatic ambassadors. It isn't being #1 that counts, it's how you get there, or at least how hard you try and how you conduct yourself along the way. I'm in your boat my friend, pass me a paddle!

[Lucky One]

I guess I am of the opinion that dealers that continually display unethical behavior will eventually exit the marketplace.

Certainly if I know a dealer over grades etc I I'm very cautious. That's why knowledge is key , it protects the buyer from "bad sellers".

Let me ask this, "What if this unethical dealer now is in financial trouble and he must sell say a $100K coin at half price. Do I pass ? What about 10K ? 5K ? "

I have no idea what Pct of dealers exhibit "bad behavior" just know that I need to be an educated buyer.

I say market forces will eventually weed out an unscrupulous dealer.

 

Rich

 

with all respect Rich, there are probably a dozen sellers on ebay that I can think of off the top of my head who obviously overgrade and underprice at that overgrade to fool ignorant newbies and steal their money and they have been there as long or nearly as long as us, and we started on ebay in 2001. Like PT Barnum said long ago, there's a sucker born every minute. ebay has more suckers than a candy factory and these scumbags will always be with us. I choose to ignore them, but it still pains me knowing that hundreds of people a week are being burnt big time by these dirty dealers. Market forces can only do so much- we need to expose them and avoid them like the plague.

[Lucky One]

... if you're going to refuse to deal with someone on principle, in your hypothetical, it shouldn't matter if he's offering bad, fair, good or great deals.

 

 

very well said, couldn't agree more

[Lucky One]

That is a great point RWB. Have organizations such as the ANA or PNG become more effective or vigilant in protecting collectors over time ?

 

they're non-existent on ebay, that's obvious.

[RWB]

That is a great point RWB. Have organizations such as the ANA or PNG become more effective or vigilant in protecting collectors over time ?

 

My opinion is that neither association has been especially diligent or effective in protecting collectors or in pursuing potential malefactors. At one time - along with starting the ANA Authentication Bureau - the ANA was aggressive in identifying and removing unscrupulous sellers and counterfeiting operations. They supported the objective research that nailed John Ford and friends for selling fake western assay bars and other fake junk. (Of course, PNG just pulled its head in the shell and pretended nothing was wrong. See NARA ODGSO archives.)

 

Now? They stick their collective heads in the turf and do nothing to curtail abuses.

[Lucky One]

That is a great point RWB. Have organizations such as the ANA or PNG become more effective or vigilant in protecting collectors over time ?

 

My opinion is that neither association has been especially diligent or effective in protecting collectors or in pursuing potential malefactors. At one time - along with starting the ANA Authentication Bureau - the ANA was aggressive in identifying and removing unscrupulous sellers and counterfeiting operations. They supported the objective research that nailed John Ford and friends for selling fake western assay bars and other fake junk. (Of course, PNG just pulled its head in the shell and pretended nothing was wrong. See NARA ODGSO archives.)

 

Now? They stick their collective heads in the turf and do nothing to curtail abuses.

 

history is destined to repeat itself. The world has become a corrupt and unscrupulous place because people have varying degrees of ethics and morality. The ANA became corrupt long before today's young collectors were born and I ended my relationship with them when I began finding myself on the other side of the argument. I think the biggest problem is people are too willing to accept lower moral and ethical standards in exchange for profit or pier standing. Sad that it's come to this in numismatics as well...

[RichH]

LuckyOne,

 

All good points, I just keep coming back the fact that the hobby has always had plenty of overpriced and over graded coins and that collectors need to properly educate themselves to make sound purchases.

 

RWB's response is what I expected, over graded and overpriced coins combined with other abuse in the hobby is systemic.

 

Consumerism is defined as the protection or promotion of the interests of consumers. Is this happening ? Certainly 3rd Party Grading, CAC etc help but don't entirely solve the problem.

 

I remember way back a friend kept making many purchases from one of the large mail order firms . I urged caution. Then when he finally went to a few shows he thought dealers I knew to be reputable way overpriced. This collector was bound to fail.

 

So, since this is a collector board, and there are newbies reading, I am just advising that they can protect themselves from unscrupulous dealers by gaining the proper knowledge,.

 

Once they do, they will hopefully know "good coins from bad coins" and then may gravitate to quality and reputable sellers ( I hope !).

 

My protection : Knowledge ( I hope).

 

So again, caveat emptor !!

 

.

Rich