A Historical Review of the Sheldon 70 Point Grading System 1 1

[TonerGuy]

I have been thinking about your position on precision grading, TonerGuy? If you name is indicative of what you like to collect, perhaps you have been burned on some toner purchases.

 

I stay away from paying big premiums for the toned coins that the toner guys like. There are a lot of pitfalls in that market, not the least of which is figuring out exactly what given look is really worth. There is no way standardize the price toners in any way. Every piece is different. Some are attractive to some collectors; some are not.

 

Toning can hide problems. It can hide wear and marks, and coin doctors have used it for years to conceal whizzing, polishing and repairs.

 

If this is your real motivation for advocating a 100 point grading system and use of decimal graded, I think you are looking at the wrong solution. It takes years of experience and good eye to do well in the beautifully toned coin market. I'll admit that I can spot them, but I can't price them. I also known that when I'm looking at the purchase of toned coin that I've got to be careful. Toning can hide lots of sins.

 

Nope. I dont really sell what I buy so I cant say Ive been burnt. And the few coins that I was forced to sell because of a divorce years ago actually made money thanks to Mark Feld.

 

Im a collector. I collect, not sell. To be honest, very rarely has a toner I submitted not made it into a PCGS or NGC slab and almost never have I had a coin bought as a MS come back as AU. And for the most part, most of my collection was purchased raw and submitted to a TPG by me (66%+). Thats part of the thrill of the hunt. For me getting a * from NGC is the icing on the cake and I have made numerous stars across many different series over the past 10+ yrs.

 

Remember it was you who started this thread, not me. I merely posted a very short comment in another thread (which was mostly tongue in cheek at the time) but thanks to you, this thread was started. And since you did I decided to reply and work on my "theoretical" approach to more precise grading.

 

Honestly, my collecting has little or nothing to do with the grade. Sometimes prices on toners are pegged to the grade, but more often than not they are tied to the actual color on the coin. I dont always agree with the price not being adjusted based on the grade to a certain degree and thus I pass on coins that I would like to own but are just too over priced. I dont mind paying single digit and even low 2 digit premiums for toners. But when someone has a coin that is 20-30x the price of a non-toned example, I pass.

 

As for CAC, I have never submitted a coin to them, nor will I. I dont look for CAC coins to purchase and I dont care about + grades. I do care about * designations though - please see above and my other thread about that. I dont care if the coin is in NGC, PCGS or ANACs plastic and I might even buy an IGC coin every now and then.

 

I dont have a dog in this hunt, nor will I ever, but then again that allows me to think logically about a situation as opposed to someone that has stated you dont want to spend thousands more on regrades. I get that. I wouldnt want to spend that money if I were you. I wouldnt want to need a CAC sticker to sell a coin. That sucks. I feel for you.

 

So really this is nothing personal for me. Rather it is merely observations that I have seen over the past 15-20 yrs of being involved with this hobby/industry. Ive seen grading the graders and + grades and FBL, FT, FB, FS, FH and whatever designation you can come up with just as more ways to precisely grade as well as a way for TPGs to get more money.

 

So therefore to think this TPG strategy will end is myopic. Market forces are pushing that issue, not me. And once all the good to great coins are graded TPGs are going to have to come up with a new plan to create more revenue... I merely submit to you and this board that either a 100 pt system (less likely) or a .00 grading system will be next in line (more likely).

[seventee]

What collector would want to resubmit all of his or her slabbed coins,with the attendant large expense, for the sake of new grade numbers?

 

All collectors should ask themselves the basic question,"Am I a coin collector or a grade number collector?"

[RWB]

"Am I a coin collector or a grade number collector?"

 

Why the answer is clear: Grade number ¢olle¢tor$....?

 

[Conder101]

What collector would want to resubmit all of his or her slabbed coins,with the attendant large expense, for the sake of new grade numbers?

Most of them when they find that they can't sell their coins at any kind of a decent price because the buyers, most of whom depend on the numbers on the slab, have no idea how to price them. So they lowball.

 

 

[RWB]

How about using "Repunched Grades" ?

 

Just have the TPGs use a hot branding iron to punch in the decimal grade, then add a sticker certifying the new grade number. Maybe a second sticker could certify that the first sticker was valid, and so forth....

 

Could this be a new type of "over-graded" coin?

[Danye West]

How about using "Repunched Grades" ?

 

Just have the TPGs use a hot branding iron to punch in the decimal grade, then add a sticker certifying the new grade number. Maybe a second sticker could certify that the first sticker was valid, and so forth....

 

Could this be a new type of "over-graded" coin?

 

 

So then would a re-grade be called a variety review?

[RWB]

...or a "Variety Act" or maybe "Vaudeville" ?

[RWB]

1 hour ago, UCROA said:

 Have you visited ucroa.net? Very interesting alternative coin grading website, I really like the concept myself.

Site looks dead from here.

[Insider]

1 hour ago, UCROA said:

 Have you visited ucroa.net? Very interesting alternative coin grading website, I really like the concept myself.

I guess you are running it.  Good Luck.  

[VKurtB]

It wants my email and permission to send me spam? Hard no. Anyone checking the box is a fool. You are agreeing to a privacy policy you cannot even see. THIS is what scams look like. Pay attention. 

Edited November 25, 2020 by VKurtB

[Alex in PA.]

I have heard many descriptions of why people collect coins and other treasures.  I only know, and this is only my opinion, that I collect items for two reasons.  One, for their historical value and two, for the pleasure they give me.  I like looking at a MS 67 Morgan Dollar.  I think that folks collect for various reasons and I hope they get as much enjoyment as I have.

[Just Bob]

9 hours ago, UCROA said:

 Have you visited ucroa.net? Very interesting alternative coin grading website, I really like the concept myself.

 

[Cat Bath]

On ‎10‎/‎9‎/‎2015 at 2:03 PM, jom said:

To me there are some issues with the system we have such as the AU58 vs MS62 "thing" which has never been resolved. Everyone knows a true AU58 will be a much nicer coin that many MS pieces so shouldn't the grading system reflect that? The point where a coin's having been circulated drops it below other less eye appealing coins has always been arbitrary. Why can't "wear" be just another detriment to a coin's preservation like bag marks, lack of luster or poor strike? Whatever the case, the present system doesn't have any kind of "fix" for this...not yet anyway.

I only really know about saints and I can say there are a few problems with that series.

1) Expensive coins tend to get a pass on the AU/MS distinction which sort of turns saints into a 10 point grading system (MS60-MS70)

2) Scratches & some other details get an almost EAC treatment  (Net Graded)

3) A + sort of means half way between grades on a more technical grading opinion while CAC/JA seems to sticker on account of luster. (my opinion)

Not sure how to reconcile this. Maybe a ancient sort of system like separate grades for strike, technical etc. Possibly a odd/even numbering system up to 70 (odd is AU / even is MS)

At this point I consider it academic because I'm pretty satisfied with the coins I have and don't really care about plastic or stickers.

Nice to know we can have a discussion here about grading. ATS this thread would have been deleted.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Cat Bath

[RWB]

12 hours ago, Cat Bath said:

To me there are some issues with the system we have such as the AU58 vs MS62 "thing" which has never been resolved. Everyone knows a true AU58 will be a much nicer coin that many MS pieces so shouldn't the grading system reflect that?

The overlap is in appearance, not condition. All coins begin as perfect uncirculated pieces - at least until they leave press collar. From there, stuff happens: abrasions of various kinds from non-circulation handling, and a different kind of abrasion from handling by people.

Many AU coins look nicer than uncirculated ones because we have selected for quality. If one looks at 1,000 DE that had bounced around and been hand-counted, you will find most have "AU" wear, but also have lots of scrapes and marks from non-circulation handling. Identical coins without excessive non-circulation handling are the same, but more highly preferred. They "look: better." Our perceptions of "better" naturally separate "baggy" from "not baggy," and hence hand counted pieces with few marks are called "AU" and the baggy remainders are give a bogus MS-60 to 62 "grade."

Much the same happens with EF coins (correctly graded, not the junk often seen) - it is our human selection bias that creates the conundrum.

[Henri Charriere]

On 11/25/2020 at 5:24 PM, VKurtB said:

It wants my email and permission to send me spam? Hard no. Anyone checking the box is a fool. You are agreeing to a privacy policy you cannot even see. THIS is what scams look like. Pay attention. 

Valid observation on a still relevant thread.  One more thing, be wary of cookies "to improve your viewing experience."  It's getting so you can no longer simply check a site without being solicited.