ARE ALL THE COIN DEALERS LOSING MONEY? OR COULD IT BE THE BUYER GETTING RIPPED OFF posted by Wilsoncoinz

[CSJournals-migration]

Well sir that's a really nice coin looks to be about Au 55 I have several complete 65 SMS sets available over here if you want to take a look.....I was still in awe of his ability to grade my coin from six feet away considering I just cut it out of the same SMS set he's trying to sell me ............. So the real question is why is he selling me the set and I'm looking at the 65 Kennedy in the display...

 

Yes the display case has a 65 Kennedy in my opinion ( USING MY TWO FOOT AWAY GRADING ABILITY )That is in mint condition no different then the one just 15 min before I cut out of the set and carefully placed in an airtight holder and the kicker was he was asking for more money for the single coin then the whole set..... Then it hit me !! No wonder he wants more for the single coin it's graded I will leave out the grading company's name but there's only two that anyone seems to take seriously and we small guys in the coin collecting industry can't afford the ridiculous prices especially when 70% of the coins are rarely more than the cost to grade and if that wasn't enough if you do have one that exceeds normal value you guys take more based on the value you decide it's worth, in which you are never guaranteed to get because your value is based on how many there are that have graded that high and yet you can buy a raw coin in a 2cent coin flip for more than that MS 65 that has a sealed plastic cover and cool hologram on one side that some insufficiently_thoughtful_person paid 40-to 50 bucks to get graded and now his 40.00 coin is not selling and he's already paid double that for it and yet there's dealers that are auctioning off coins you value at 175.00 for 38.00 and a year later still can't determine from one day to the next how much the coin is worth and these coins are already graded .. by you (the grading company)so anyway my point is I have been selling and trading and buying and am stuck on what I call a reality check.!!! The coin collecting is fun and I enjoy it but I've been told before it's like cocaine it's addictive and expensive and the one's who do it often have money and I don't I went from looking for errors on pennies which nobody buys to selling about 300 to 400 pre 65 Roosevelt dimes for a friend at 80 cent a piece so I made about 15 cent off each one and now am out of inventory and have accumulated all kinds of NCG and PCGS graded coins that I should be able to make better money on .I thought I had the hang of it until tonight when I realized I have spent about 300.00 bucks on beautiful coins I can't touch and no matter how little I got them for I can't get close to the actual value of them because everybody is always trying to get the better deal.So guess I will wait on some advise that maybe someone who reads this may have to how to make this hobby a job because I actually enjoy this and you wouldn't know it because I always feel like I'm the one who gets the sh*t end of the stick when it comes to who gets the better deal .So in closing why can I get a value on my coin yesterday but not today?Why does my coin have so many titles and yet I haven't seen another one for sale yet with the same title !! I'm referring to my 2014 S-high relief Early release 50th Anniversary sp 69 Enhanced Finish silver Kennedy half dollar that yesterday you had valued at 175.00 with only 217 of them graded and today no value or details and I bought another one for 50.00 today that has a little less title than mine and again no value?

 

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[Six Mile Rick]

Selling coins is fun indeed BUT it is not a job.------ It's a hobby.

I sell and trade coins all year long but not for a paycheck.--- Just for the enjoyment in it.

 

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That is why your prices and details are not showing up.

[ArmyBud]

Not a lot of people jumped right on this one (except for Six Mile Rick) and I can always depend on him to boil it down to the least common denominator. If you are in this great hobby to simply make money then you need to hang with a different crowd called "Coin Dealers" instead of "Coin Collectors". There is a definite difference and a definite skill set for both. Knowing what you can invest to end up on the other end with a profit is a very tight rope to walk. You have your professionals (Rick T, the TV shows, Coin shows, etc) that will pass a coin, any coin, for a profit whereas a Collector would sweat bullets thinking he would have to get rid of his baby. So it's decision time.....to deal or not to deal, that is the question. Whether it is nobler to just collect, trade and enjoy our hobby or jump into a different though parallel universe of the Dealer. Never the twain shall meet!!! Good luck my friend......

Bud

[ArmyBud]

Wilsoncoinz,

Just one more quick reply and I'll let it lay.....we are becoming a society of collectors that collect "labels" instead of coins. I read back over the label on your coin....."I'm referring to my 2014 S-high relief Early release 50th Anniversary sp 69 Enhanced Finish silver Kennedy half dollar". Wow....what a title.....Just saying that makes me want to give you a lot of money for it!!! I'm being unnecessarily sarcastic and I apologize. I feel your frustration and have been there myself. It's one of the reasons that I only collect Lincoln Proof Cents of a certain year group and mine and my Wife's birth year coins. I felt the pressures of the labels and had to get back to basics. I'm so glad I did....and wouldn't have it any other way.

Bud

[Lucky One]

Your dillemma is not a new one- many collectors expect to make money since they're collecting, well, money. If you want to make money off your hobby, that is fine, but two things have to happen before you have any chance of turning a profit:

 

First, you have to accept reality- to make money on your coins you have to either take the profit from the person you sell it to and or the person you buy it from, or both (as many auction houses do!).

 

Second, if you want to run with the big dogs, you have to KNOW what the big dogs know. If you want to make a fast profit, you have to sell it for less than ALL of your competition and you have to know what that level is. If you have no knowledge or firm understanding of the 'industry' (I hate that label, it is a hobby and a science!) then how can you blame anyone but yourself? Not meaning to knock you but really, think about it. Most rare coin dealers will buy ONLY what they reasonably believe they can sell for a profit in a short period of time. Do they do this well? Well look on ebay and see how many coins are relisted for years on end. (click on the 'Revisions' button at the top of any listing to see when it was originally listed) Even the pros can't predict what will sell and what will rot in their inventorry for years so why would someone not in the business know better than that?

 

As for what you are trying to make money on- think about it- these are mass produced to be perfect, so why would anyone think they will become 'rare' and valuable??? The population numbers on something like this are bound to go up as ignorant collectors buy them, forcing prices back to reality as the population numbers swell to take the profits. When the numbers go up so high that collectors realize they were taken, everyone jumps in to sell before they lose their pants. I have seen it time after time and it makes me sick to watch people lose not only their hard earned money, but also love for a great hobby that they'd still be enjoying IF they had just thought it through- rarity is what drives serious collectors. Maybe you can't afford it but that is where your goals should lie. I have collected every series you can imagine in my fifty years in the hobby, but I have NEVER collected common modern stuff for obvious reasons. What do I collect presently? Liberty half eagles. Why? Because they are truly rare and the population numbers have not grown exponentially as prices rise simply because there are no more floating around to be graded.

 

In closing, and sorry for such a long lecture, if you want to both enjoy your hobby AND not lose huge amounts of money, spend your next $500 of numismatic budget on several good books by learned scholars in the hobby (not industry- they are the deceivers and thieves, not the scholars) on the series you think you might enjoy collecting and STUDYING and learn what the scholars know, then you are well enough equipped to prevent the losses from mounting. In my fifty years in the hobby, I can't remember many times taking losses on anything except when the market turned south and I was forced to sell into a crashing market in 1989-1990, but overall in the entire period of time my collection has probably doubled in value just for picking rarity over common modern manufatured perfection. Afterall, what fun could a full set of MS70 or proof 70 coins be if EVERYONE has them? I wouldn't trade my less than 100 known half eagles (have about 30 or 40 different dates that are that rare!) for modern manufactured stuff at 10 cents on the dollar simply because modern stuff is not rare and has no reason to hold it's value other than hype, and we all know how long hype lasts on the world wide web once everyone realizes they have been taken!

 

In closing, no insult was intended, just trying to convince one more potential fellow collector that if it was made by the tens of thousands or millions to perfecting standards, it ain't rare and won't hold it's value- that is virtually written in stone. I wish you the best of luck in the hobby but beg you to re-evaluate your position and educate yourself so that no one will ever convince you that modern mass produced coins are worth more than issue value...

[Larz13]

Many above have given you good advice and I will just "pile on" with some more. As I tell my family and friends....take what you want and leave what you don't (the advice, that is). This forum is great for learning and even I picked up some new info that I did not know from the discussion above.

 

Having collected coins for some time now, many collectors, including myself at times take a "me against the world" approach to when I am buying coins. I will reiterate that the dealers are in it to make money, whether it is their hobby or their livelihood. Many collectors are part-time dealers, as you buy coins at one stage in your collecting life only to sell it later for a better coin or a different coin that you are collecting today. It all boils down to the old economics of supply and demand most times (but not always). Unfortunately, the guys selling on TV have jumped on the coin bandwagon and this is probably the worst place to buy coins from. Sure, you may get lucky, but often times, the prices are inflated and you get things like what is in the label of the coin that you are displaying. One little secret--these TV guys get with the coin graders (yes...even NGC) to come up with fancy labels, titles, etc. to entice people to purchase coins. I agree...the label that you have is cool with Kennedy on it, but not cool enough to overpay for something. I have been told that 98% of the coins from the US Mint will grade MS-70 or MS-69 (or PF-70/PF-69). Funny that the only rarities are the coins which are graded LOWER than 69! Common sense reveals that if a lot of these coins are graded, you will see many of them in the top grades. The TV shows have exploited this and there are willing consumers willing to buy them.

 

Hopefully this has not discouraged you in collecting. I have sold several coins at shows and on eBay when I upgrade to a higher grade and have duplicates (or I want to raise funds to purchase something big!), so it is always a good idea to know what the value of things are. There are times where you can make some money and other times you are hoping to break even. As LuckyOne said above, hopefully you don't get caught in one of those downward coin trends and are selling during this time. Good luck!

 

 

[Lucky One]

Not a lot of people jumped right on this one (except for Six Mile Rick) and I can always depend on him to boil it down to the least common denominator. If you are in this great hobby to simply make money then you need to hang with a different crowd called "Coin Dealers" instead of "Coin Collectors". There is a definite difference and a definite skill set for both. Knowing what you can invest to end up on the other end with a profit is a very tight rope to walk. You have your professionals (Rick T, the TV shows, Coin shows, etc) that will pass a coin, any coin, for a profit whereas a Collector would sweat bullets thinking he would have to get rid of his baby. So it's decision time.....to deal or not to deal, that is the question. Whether it is nobler to just collect, trade and enjoy our hobby or jump into a different though parallel universe of the Dealer. Never the twain shall meet!!! Good luck my friend......

Bud

 

 

Tough love Bud, but I agree with you 100%. I love the hobby and very much dislike those who call themselves 'collectors' but only talk in terms of profit. If I thought coin dealing was easier than coin collecting, I'd have become a coin dealer too...

[Lucky One]

Many above have given you good advice and I will just "pile on" with some more. As I tell my family and friends....take what you want and leave what you don't (the advice, that is). This forum is great for learning and even I picked up some new info that I did not know from the discussion above.

 

Having collected coins for some time now, many collectors, including myself at times take a "me against the world" approach to when I am buying coins. I will reiterate that the dealers are in it to make money, whether it is their hobby or their livelihood. Many collectors are part-time dealers, as you buy coins at one stage in your collecting life only to sell it later for a better coin or a different coin that you are collecting today. It all boils down to the old economics of supply and demand most times (but not always). Unfortunately, the guys selling on TV have jumped on the coin bandwagon and this is probably the worst place to buy coins from. Sure, you may get lucky, but often times, the prices are inflated and you get things like what is in the label of the coin that you are displaying. One little secret--these TV guys get with the coin graders (yes...even NGC) to come up with fancy labels, titles, etc. to entice people to purchase coins. I agree...the label that you have is cool with Kennedy on it, but not cool enough to overpay for something. I have been told that 98% of the coins from the US Mint will grade MS-70 or MS-69 (or PF-70/PF-69). Funny that the only rarities are the coins which are graded LOWER than 69! Common sense reveals that if a lot of these coins are graded, you will see many of them in the top grades. The TV shows have exploited this and there are willing consumers willing to buy them.

 

Hopefully this has not discouraged you in collecting. I have sold several coins at shows and on eBay when I upgrade to a higher grade and have duplicates (or I want to raise funds to purchase something big!), so it is always a good idea to know what the value of things are. There are times where you can make some money and other times you are hoping to break even. As LuckyOne said above, hopefully you don't get caught in one of those downward coin trends and are selling during this time. Good luck!

 

 

 

Good closing point Lars- what I failed to note was that while some coins (true classic US rarities) lost very little in that market crash, some items lost as much as 90%!!! Anyone who hoarded MS65 Morgans knows this well and can probably still feel that sinking feeling in their stomachs as they lost 50%, 60%, 70%, 80% and finally 90% on their supposed great investment. This is a hobby, and those people were convinced that it was like the stock market. But in the end all that matters is that IF the coins are not in strong collector hands, that episode in the coin marketplace demonstrates what happens- the coins floood the maket because the owners (speculators and investors) didn't love them enough to ride out the storm and that is what forced the market to crash.

 

My best advice to anyone with less than a decade in the hobby- don't invest in coins, it will bite you in the every time. Form a truly rare collection and stick with it like a daughter or a wife for life, that is what will pay off AND give enjoyment for a lifetime...

[Walkerfan]

My best advice to anyone with less than a decade in the hobby- don't invest in coins, it will bite you in the every time. Form a truly rare collection and stick with it like a daughter or a wife for life, that is what will pay off AND give enjoyment for a lifetime...

 

I like this quote and I will add the follow:

 

I am BOTH a collector AND an investor---how could I not be at the level that I play the game? I would be foolish to buy high grade, rare coins and not be price conscious.

 

One should collect what you LIKE but also LEARN about your series----what is rare? Both conditionally and absolutely? These coins usually have 'foundational' rarity (low mintage and low survival rates). Learn how to VALUE a good coin and know the worth, then take advantage of these opportunities, when they come along, especially if the price is right.

 

Have I even paid up for or have I ever been buried in a coin? You bet! But that is because I needed it for my set and it was unique. For every coin that I overpaid for----there are at least 3 or 4 times as many that I picked up at FANTASTIC prices that are also truly RARE. I am well ahead of the game in this sense.

 

I recommend picking a GOOD CLASSIC SERIES in a grade that one can afford and I would not go above gem or near gem. They will hold their value, ESPECIALLY in the long term.

 

All the best to you and Happy Collecting.

[KMAG100]

My best advice to anyone with less than a decade in the hobby- don't invest in coins, it will bite you in the every time. Form a truly rare collection and stick with it like a daughter or a wife for life, that is what will pay off AND give enjoyment for a lifetime...

 

I like this quote and I will add the follow:

 

I am BOTH a collector AND an investor---how could I not be at the level that I play the game? I would be foolish to buy high grade, rare coins and not be price conscious.

 

One should collect what you LIKE but also LEARN about your series----what is rare? Both conditionally and absolutely? These coins usually have 'foundational' rarity (low mintage and low survival rates). Learn how to VALUE a good coin and know the worth, then take advantage of these opportunities, when they come along, especially if the price is right.

 

Have I even paid up for or have I ever been buried in a coin? You bet! But that is because I needed it for my set and it was unique. For every coin that I overpaid for----there are at least 3 or 4 times as many that I picked up at FANTASTIC prices that are also truly RARE. I am well ahead of the game in this sense.

 

I recommend picking a GOOD CLASSIC SERIES in a grade that one can afford and I would not go above gem or near gem. They will hold their value, ESPECIALLY in the long term.

 

All the best to you and Happy Collecting.

 

These are the two quotes I find most like my thinking.....Yes, I have grossly over paid for a coin for one of my collections, and will do it again several times I am guessing. I have also bought coins simply to see what an expert called a particular attribute of a coin as great. Teaches me a lot about the expert, and identified attributes of coins. I call that paying for my education. What would scare me is if I could not identify when I was over paying for a coin in the current market.

 

Last, if a person is going to invest an extraordinary amount of time and money to a hobby, not sure how they would not consider it an investment also.

 

Edited: on the first quote the last sentence is what I agree with. Stick with it over time and the investment piece will hit, if you do your DD.