Refunds on counterfeit and mis-attributed coins

[ldhair]

ok

[19Lyds]

that is much different than someone taking a lump of metal and making a US coin counterfeit

 

The original coin is effectively destroyed - the devices, mottos, legends, dates, etc. - all are obliterated such that I don't see his work as being any different than striking similar pieces on a generic lump of metal on a Chinese press. In any event, even if you don't consider these pieces "counterfeits," he did make a instrument that is similar in design or similitude of legitimate U.S. coinage (a paraphrase of the relevant statutes at play), so I still don't see that as legitimating the pieces or making them okay. In fact, in my opinion, they still violate the law. And even if the coins were legal, then the dies used to strike them would still be illegal in my opinion.

 

I think this should be my last post on Carr. Not every thread that discusses counterfeits, unauthorized replicas, etc., should divulge into a debate about him. For any reply that might address my points, my responses are contained in a thread entitled "Near Counterfeit" here.

 

18 U.S.C. 487

 

Whoever, without lawful authority, makes any die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon, of any die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at the mints of the United States; or

 

Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any such die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid of the counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

 

18 U.S.C. 485

 

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States....

 

Of course you don't and nothing that can be said or done will ever change your opinion.

 

You see, you've forgotten or perhaps never knew the intent behind putting dates and motto's and values on hunks of silver, gold, and copper. That "intent" certainly was for coin collectors as much as it was to validate the "assay" content of the metal disks that bear those inscriptions with a governmental fair market value for gold and silver.

 

 

Gold was $20 an ounce for a very long time and silver drifted well below $1.00 and ounce until the 60's where silver was being used for integrated circuits and transistors and Kodak Film.

 

The assigned value of the coin is directly related to the metal content. This is validated by the Trade Dollars which were heavier in Silver and illegal to use stateside.

 

But........whatever.

[19Lyds]

Apples and oranges. A hobo nickel makes the coin look less like an original genuine mint product, whereas yours makes it look like a genuine coin of a rare date and mint mark. There is a big difference.

 

If I took a classic piece of paper money and bleached it, overprinting it as a rare note, would that be legal?

 

And the thread of interest is here (all 37 pages of it): http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=7728386&fpart=1

That analogy is much,much closer to apples and oranges unless of course, Daniel was changing the ONE DOLLAR on the host Peace Dollars to read TEN DOLLARS.

 

Then it could be considered counterfeit.

 

But again........whatever.

[19Lyds]

My "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars are listed in the 6th edition of the Krause Unusual World Coins Catalog (page 696, "BU" price $120).

 

Red Book........"deceptive reproductions exist."

 

Chris

Perhaps, but the information is readily available to all that care to do some research.

[19Lyds]

Which reminds me, do you only post on a forum when someone posts a negative comment about your work? You don't seem to join in any general conversations for the sake of the hobby.

 

Chris

That's not true Chris and you know it.

[cpm9ball]

Which reminds me, do you only post on a forum when someone posts a negative comment about your work? You don't seem to join in any general conversations for the sake of the hobby.

 

Chris

That's not true Chris and you know it.

 

Not really! The only time I've seen him around here is when a discussion arises about his stuff.

 

Chris

[cpm9ball]

My "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars are listed in the 6th edition of the Krause Unusual World Coins Catalog (page 696, "BU" price $120).

 

Red Book........"deceptive reproductions exist."

 

Chris

Perhaps, but the information is readily available to all that care to do some research.

 

That may be true, but like I tried to point out on another forum, there are way too many uneducated newcomers who can be burned by some unscrupulous seller trying to pawn off this stuff. DC won't be around forever, but of course, That's not his problem!

 

Chris

[19Lyds]

My "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars are listed in the 6th edition of the Krause Unusual World Coins Catalog (page 696, "BU" price $120).

 

Red Book........"deceptive reproductions exist."

 

Chris

Perhaps, but the information is readily available to all that care to do some research.

 

That may be true, but like I tried to point out on another forum, there are way too many uneducated newcomers who can be burned by some unscrupulous seller trying to pawn off this stuff. DC won't be around forever, but of course, That's not his problem!

 

Chris

You know as well as I do that this is really a weak assumption since in 5 years, it hasn't happened.

 

You also know that there is always going to be some ID-10-T out there that you simply cannot protect him from himself! It does not matter how much is spent or how its spent, he'll spend it.

 

I've seen some real loonies on these forums convinced that they've got the next best thing. All they need to do is convince their loony friends that they need it and all the HPA's in the world isn't going to stop that transaction.

 

As for Daniel Carr not living forever? None of us will and by the time were all dead and gone, his work will be recognized as a collectible by all the Top TPG's.

 

It happened before and it'll happen again.

 

Now if folks REALLY are "concerned" over the protection of newbies or dummies within the coin collecting hobby, then they'll already have begun their HPA proceedings. Otherwise they are just being blowing smoke.

[19Lyds]

Which reminds me, do you only post on a forum when someone posts a negative comment about your work? You don't seem to join in any general conversations for the sake of the hobby.

 

Chris

That's not true Chris and you know it.

 

Not really! The only time I've seen him around here is when a discussion arises about his stuff.

 

Chris

Pehaps that the only time you've noticed but he posts on other subjects as well. He's as active as anybody else on the CU and CoinTalk forums.

[dcarr]

I wonder how much damage you are doing to the numismatic community. Like on the other forum when you told a novice that their 1889-CC Morgan dollar was probably counterfeit (it wasn't).

 

Yeah, that was another of your attempts to make me look bad, but you didn't mention that I stated that I hoped I was wrong. But, that's just you being a jerk. Wasn't it!

 

By the way, the person who posted that 1889-CC is hardly a novice. He's 73, has been a member of the CT forums for 9-1/2 years and has about 6 times as many posts as you do.

 

(no evidence) = (you lie)

:banana:Stick and stones! Sticks and stones! It's out there. It's just that you are too lazy too find it for yourself.

 

You made claims about cases where someone paid way to much money for coins they knew nothing about. I requested that you post a link or reference to any such case. But you didn't.

You made a claim that I insulted you on another forum. I asked you to post a reference to that incident. But you didn't.

 

How am I supposed to look something up if there are no specifics to go on ?

But if you don't care if anyone believes you, then there is no reason to post any evidence.

 

Yeah, that was another of your attempts to make me look bad, but you didn't mention that I stated that I hoped I was wrong. But, that's just you being a jerk. Wasn't it!

 

You say that like you never tried to make me look bad.

 

I asked a question to RWB (NOT to you !):

Who is this "Colorado counterfeiter" you speak of ?

What hobby organization are you talking about ?

What coins were destroyed ?

 

And you jumped in with:

It's probably the guy who found a loophole in the law and doesn't want to put the word "COPY" on his copies because he would lose business. Oh, that's right! It isn't a copy because he changed one digit on the date. "MK DTHOID UI KXC M QDMIXK. UKICDMV, UC'I M WUD VQDIIDV OL CX IOUC CED XHHMIUXK." (AN EXCUSE IS NOT A REASON. INSTEAD, IT'S A LIE DRESSED UP TO SUIT THE OCCASION.)

 

By the way, the person who posted that 1889-CC is hardly a novice. He's 73, has been a member of the CT forums for 9-1/2 years and has about 6 times as many posts as you do.

 

Age and number of posts doesn't mean he isn't a novice. But assuming that he isn't a novice, I stand corrected. But bad advice is still bad advice regardless of who is on the receiving end of it. Yes, later in the thread you posted that you hoped that the coin was real. But the owner of that coin still had to wonder for a day or so if their dreams had been totally dashed (they weren't).

 

Which reminds me, do you only post on a forum when someone posts a negative comment about your work? You don't seem to join in any general conversations for the sake of the hobby.

 

I participate on the CU forums far more than any others. But I have received emails from people telling me about threads such as this one, and so that is how I find them. And I participate so as to make sure accurate information is presented.

 

[coinman_23885]

And I participate so as to make sure accurate information is presented.

 

Then in my opinion, for reasons already stated in this and the other threads, you should retract 90% of your posts which do not appear to be accurate. Nowhere do the statutes that I have cited include fraud as an element. You are making that up and trying to incorporate provisions from another statute. It is quite possible to violate more than one statutory scheme at the same time.

[dcarr]

And I participate so as to make sure accurate information is presented.

 

Then in my opinion, for reasons already stated in this and the other threads, you should retract 90% of your posts which do not appear to be accurate. Nowhere do the statutes that I have cited include fraud as an element. You are making that up and trying to incorporate provisions from another statute. It is quite possible to violate more than one statutory scheme at the same time.

 

When it comes to altering coins (which is what I am doing with the over-strikes), this is what the US Mint says:

US Mint: (Text as of 2/19/02) 18 U.S.C. §331:

 

I see the word "fraudulently", and it is underlined for emphasis.

 

[dcarr]

Which reminds me, do you only post on a forum when someone posts a negative comment about your work? You don't seem to join in any general conversations for the sake of the hobby.

 

Here is a list of all my posts here:

 

All CS posts by dcarr

 

Yes, many have to do with over-strikes. Quite a few do not.

 

[dcarr]

This thread has been a mud-fest of insult slinging and circular arguing from all sides. I found it aggravating, but also kind of "fun" in some ways, as strange as that may seem. My apologies to the OP and other readers that this thread was derailed.

 

But I think it is time for a summary of this thread from my point of view:

 

1)

I have been labeled as a "counterfeiter" ("Colorado Counterfeiter").

Since I am the only minter in Colorado other than the US Denver Mint, that was obviously intended as a reference towards me. But I am not a "counterfeiter", nor have I ever been legally charged with any such offense. Intentionally spreading false information about a person or company is grounds for legal action.

 

2)

I was called a "5th grade art student". And this was not the first time. Everyone has a different opinion about art. Many do not agree with that assessment. One thing is for sure - I graduated from college many years ago, so I'm definitely not in the 5th grade.

 

3)

It was stated that I was "too lazy" to look up information for myself. I've posted more links and references than anyone else in this thread. But some others have made claims that were not supported by any documentation, and they did not provide any even when specifically asked.

 

4)

It was announced that I do not care about the future of numismatics.

To reply to that, here are excerpts from a recent post I made at another forum:

 

I've been a coin enthusiast and collector since about 1970. In 1999 I designed the actual New York and Rhode Island state quarters for the US Mint. Coins are a hobby that I enjoy. Making cool tokens/medals is fun, pure and simple.

 

If I really didn't care about what happens in numismatics, here is what I could do:

 

1) Secretly make actual counterfeits of existing key-date coins, tokens, medals, etc.

2) Sell them as genuine.

3) Never let anyone know.

 

Of course, that would be illegal and I have never done that and I have no interest in ever doing anything like that.

 

So I take genuine coins, deface them (changing the date to a date that was never issued for that type), AND widely publish and disseminate information about them. Such information appears on my web sites (which include diagnostic information and mintages). Information is widely available on the internet in forums such as this one. A couple of my earlier fantasy-date over-strike coins are listed in the 6th edition of the Krause Unusual World Coins catalog (more of them may be listed in the next edition). ANACS will certify any of them as "Dan Carr O/S Tokens". The Society of Silver Dollar Collectors asked me to write an article for their newsletter about my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollar project. That article was published and it later received the "George A. Mallis Literary Award". One of my "1964-D" over-strike Peace Dollars was featured on the popular TV show "Pawn Stars" (season 8, episode 109 titled "Flying High"). It was clearly and immediately identified on the show as a "Daniel Carr" fantasy-date over-strike coin. I did not appear on the show, but I did help to arrange that appearance and made sure the information about the coin was presented correctly and in full.

 

If I was really a "greedy counterfeiter", only interested in profits at the expense of numismatics, I could have made a lot more money by making actual counterfeits and hiding everything rather than making legal novelty items and putting it all out in the open.

 

PS:

To partially put this thread back on track - when it comes to refunds:

If anyone wants to send back one or more of my over-strikes, I will happily pay them the full issue price, regardless of where they bought it and regardless of how long ago they acquired it.