Dealer Buy-Back Prices

[coinman_23885]

John,

 

(thumbs u

[coinman_23885]

Hi,

I just want to apologize to all on how this thread turned out.

 

 

I don't think you owe anyone in this thread an apology.

[coinman_23885]

P.S. For those who may find themselves in a similar situation, check out http://www.edelmanscoins.com. They offer secured loans using your coins as collateral.

[david3142]

I grew up just a couple of minutes from Edelman's! In an effort to steer this thread back let me relay a couple of experiences. I have only ever sold a coin back to s dealer twice. The first was an AU 20 cent piece (raw) that I bought from Ed Hipps. I think I probably had it 3-6 months and then decided it didn't have enough luster for my taste. The market had moved up a bit and he bought it back at the original price. I suspect he would have done this even if the market hadn't moved, but no idea if it had moved down. I may have been able to get a few bucks more shopping it around but maybe not. In my head I was simply returning the coin. When I ended up buying the one that is now in my set, prices had gone up even more.

 

Second was with Don Rinkor who mentions on his web site that any coin they sell he will usually be happy to buy back. I bought an 1885-CC in 62DMPL. I thought it was very close to 63 but eventually a couple of parallel scratches on the cheek really bothered me. He gave me full value as part of a trade-in when I upgraded to a 64DMPL (and bought an 1881-CC at the same time). I don't think the market had changed and this again was probably 3-6 months later.

 

I have done a lot of business with both of these dealers and would eagerly do so in the future.

 

One additional time I tried to sell a coin back to a dealer but I didn't think he offered the best price. The coin had gone up quite a bit and this was after more than a year. I didn't view that as a return.

 

[Calamerica]

Well well well...finding out a bit more and some good info on this Thread.

 

Some more parameters for those who continue to argue( troll as I call it):

 

No one needs permission to "deal with" me. If you want to deal with me, then do it. Don't ask Mark ( Feld I suppose) for his "blessings". Even if he is some kind of Mobster-type that send overgrown Goombahs to deliver messages, do it. I entertain everything and everything when it happens. That is my nice way of saying that I ain't scared of anybody or anything. Bring it. But be ready. I always am. I ain't here to make friends or to be P.C.

 

I am not going to keep combing over this thread, he said this, he said that. Apparently the law-degreed Juris Doctors love trolling. I hope those with the J.D.'s are making money off their hard-won degree. Maybe they will buy my coins someday. But I don't have a buyback policy. My world is simple: a deal is a deal. Period.

 

Wrong is wrong, and saying bad things about a Dealer here, which is NOT a collectors only Forum( Dealers are allowed too - anyone can sign up per NGC), is up to the OP. If someone wants to be wrong, so be it. What really irritated me is that LeeG received MAJOR benefit when the Dealer could have said "No". Then LeeG "apologizing" and waffling back-and-forth, a la Bill Clinton. Bit the hand that fed him. Hard for a person like me to sympathize with that. But you guys? One admitting getting kicked off of PCGS? I am a member of PCGS and will start looking there tonight and see what else I might discover.

 

Take care everybody and enjoy coin collecting.

 

CAL the Franklin Collector

 

Cal,

If I am ever approached by anyone asking my opinion whether you are someone to have a business relationship with of any kind.....buy, sell, partnership, etc., I will be very direct in my response: In my opinion, no.

In my opinion, you do not know how to conduct yourself, or control yourself, or exhibit the minimum understanding of manners, and, in my opinion, you have a severe inability to comprehend the statements of others, which may cause a future detriment to anyone having such a relationship with you on a business level.

My opinion is based on your Posts in this Thread.

 

To the point: In my opinion, you have crossed the line. You have masked threats to others, you have been blatantly accusatory to others, you have openly accused others of political leanings that don't agree with your philosophy, without any prompting and without knowing the beliefs of those you attacked, and have denigrated political figures with derisive language and belittlement to make some unknown point, and in a manner suggesting an intent to disrupt the Thread.

 

For these reasons, I am going to ask the Mods to review your Posts, and decide the merits, if any, of your Posts.

 

I am suggesting that all members use the ignore function, in an effort to curb your desires to disrupt Threads in an unacceptable manner.

 

 

 

 

What a bunch of bull. Just give me your eBay handle and I will ensure you don't buy from me. Go ahead. The Mods know who I am.

 

CAL who gets good laughs at these "Internet Tough Guys" but have to call Mommy on me...

[coinman_23885]

Cal,

If I am ever approached by anyone asking my opinion whether you are someone to have a business relationship with of any kind.....buy, sell, partnership, etc., I will be very direct in my response: In my opinion, no.

In my opinion, you do not know how to conduct yourself, or control yourself, or exhibit the minimum understanding of manners, and, in my opinion, you have a severe inability to comprehend the statements of others, which may cause a future detriment to anyone having such a relationship with you on a business level.

My opinion is based on your Posts in this Thread.

 

To the point: In my opinion, you have crossed the line. You have masked threats to others, you have been blatantly accusatory to others, you have openly accused others of political leanings that don't agree with your philosophy, without any prompting and without knowing the beliefs of those you attacked, and have denigrated political figures with derisive language and belittlement to make some unknown point, and in a manner suggesting an intent to disrupt the Thread.

 

For these reasons, I am going to ask the Mods to review your Posts, and decide the merits, if any, of your Posts.

 

I am suggesting that all members use the ignore function, in an effort to curb your desires to disrupt Threads in an unacceptable manner.

 

 

What a bunch of bull. Just give me your eBay handle and I will ensure you don't buy from me. Go ahead. The Mods know who I am.

 

CAL who gets good laughs at these "Internet Tough Guys" but have to call Mommy on me...

 

Do us all a favor and post your eBay ID Cal. I am sure most of the members of the coin forum would be sure to never trouble you with bids or purchases on eBay.

[Houston Investor]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Mr Nice Guy at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want to make whether coins or not.

 

 

Good Morning.

 

It appears you are responding to my Post. I should reply.

 

You have every Right to conduct business in any manner you deem is in your best interests. I am strongly supportive of the Capitalist system.

 

I can envision another reason or 2 for a Dealer to be "Mr Nice Guy".....business relationship in the future. In the internet world of today and the strength of social media, such a gesture is worth more than a paper advertisement. Nobody is declaring a Dealer should fall on their sword every time a Buyer asks for consideration on a coin being returned. I certainly understand your thoughts. I certainly understand the possibility of a sob story that is suspect on the surface. I certainly understand the ever changing market that controls such decisions.

 

However, the human factor is paramount to business. There are ways to address such situations, when they arise, and turn it into a pleasant situation for all, especially when both Parties are familiar with each other and have conducted business previously that was satisfying to both. An offer could have been made to sell on behalf of the original Buyer using an innovative fee arrangement: sharing gains in excess of the Dealer original offer, offering to assist the original Buyer by directing him/her to another venue - a timeless Good Will approach still taught at Wharton, advising the best course of action and extending a resource as minor as a want list name that may be interested, or simply finding the real difference between the original Buyer expectation and what the margin is that can not possibly be exceeded even with Good Will intentions.

 

My point is, that sometimes knowing the customer and the immediate human touch that may be required in a certain situation, can pay dividends that would otherwise have been a wasted opportunity.

 

Declaring every coin purchase from a Dealer is an investment decision with risk (which often is not considered in investment/risk terms at all by the Buyer but is purchased for the enjoyment of the hobby by the Buyer) and therefore the Dealer is absolved from consideration of other aspects of the customer relationship, does not assist either the business or the customer.

 

I have never met a Dealer that informs the customer before consummating a transaction that the transaction is an investment and has a large risk and the buyer should consider risk management and the transaction should be leveraged in the event of loss, and the Dealer can not assume any responsibility. Maybe this should be a standard. After all, Buying stock from a Broker comes with such warnings.

 

My point being that if a Dealer wants to consider every coin transaction in the investment manner being suggested, the Dealer should, in the interest of good business practice, make this clear to the Buyer.

 

The "debate" does not center so much on what the buyback should or shouldn't be, which in the end is nothing but opinion, as your figures are, but appears to be more of a consideration of the human aspect of the transaction.

 

My thoughts on the matter can best be illustrated by something I read long ago. A businessman declared he would always enjoy excellent customer relationships and success, as long as a photo of him with a customer's spouse never came to light, because every other customer relationship issue can be resolved to the satisfaction of all.

[World Colonial]

There appear to be several factors in the disagreement between both sides in this thread.

 

Primarily, I believe those who disagree with both you and Cal don't like the way you make your comments. I tend to be direct in my posts and I believe many don't like it either, even though only a few have stated it.

 

In the aggregate, I agree with both of your positions. If someone either cannot afford to hold on to the coins they buy or is unwilling to lose money on them when they go to sell, then don't buy them. This isn't the first time I have seen this subject come up and though I don't know how many others here potentially are in a similar situation, I suspect more than a few have imprudently accumulated an outsized percentage of their net worth in their collection. I believe this also influences some of the replies in this thread.

 

Whatever anyone does is up to them. Personally, the last thing I would do is concurrently have an above average exposure to my collection (whether with limited liquidity or not) while at the same time (partially) relying on a buyback guarantee from a dealer as part of a liquidation plan if I ever really needed the money. That is really poor financial planning.

 

I believe many contributors here (and on PCGS) don't actually realize the potential risk they take, not just to their financial position but to their future standard of living. Because many collectors here are (much) better off than the median, I also question whether they are really aware of how illiquid most of the coins they collect actually are.

 

The coins profiled here are disproportionately a lot more expensive than those bought by the lopsided percentage of collectors. They are usually "cheap" or at least moderately priced under the US pricing structure but only because the US price level is an outlier and in many instances, absurdly inflated.

 

I have made this comment many times and I will say it again. The financial position and the average standard of living in this country is in decline and its going to continue for the indefinite future. I expect most people to be worse if not much worse off later than they are today and disproportionately, will only be able to pay less for most coins.

 

 

[World Colonial]

I understand the points you are making but don't think they are realistic.

 

First, while the dealer in this particular instance could have taken the coin on consignment, it's apparent the OP needed the money right away. I don't know whether a quick sale would have been feasible under this option but consider it unlikely.

 

Second on the "investment" aspect, I assume that Seller11's post is written from the standpoint of a dealer. To a dealer as a business , it is an actual investment as opposed to the buyer where it is financially a form of SPECULATION, whether others here want to admit it or not..

 

I also don't see any reason at all why most (If any) dealers would provide the disclaimer you suggested. I presume some do so but most do not and I also don't see that coin sellers should have to act like a registered investment advisor, whether voluntarily or not.

 

Lastly, I agree with you that most buyers see collecting as a hobby but concurrently don't believe this applies EXCLUSIVELY to those who post here or on PCGS because of the price point at which they buy their coins and the "investment" they have in their collections.

 

Anyone who buys coins at the price point which many here and on PGCS do should be aware of these considerations. If they don't, they have no business making the purchase.

 

I make this last comment because while I believe most participants on this forum and PCGS are real collectors, I concurrently don't believe that they buy most of the coins they do primarily because of collecting. This should be apparent from the posting history and the (exorbitant) premiums which are frequently paid for completely trivial (if not imaginary) difference in actual quality. I don't see that this practice has much to do with collecting at all, no matter that most who buy these coins apparently believe otherwise.

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

There appear to be several factors in the disagreement between both sides in this thread.

 

Primarily, I believe those who disagree with both you and Cal don't like the way you make your comments. I tend to be direct in my posts and I believe many don't like it either, even though only a few have stated it.

 

In the aggregate, I agree with both of your positions. If someone either cannot afford to hold on to the coins they buy or is unwilling to lose money on them when they go to sell, then don't buy them. This isn't the first time I have seen this subject come up and though I don't know how many others here potentially are in a similar situation, I suspect more than a few have imprudently accumulated an outsized percentage of their net worth in their collection. I believe this also influences some of the replies in this thread.

 

Whatever anyone does is up to them. Personally, the last thing I would do is concurrently have an above average exposure to my collection (whether with limited liquidity or not) while at the same time (partially) relying on a buyback guarantee from a dealer as part of a liquidation plan if I ever really needed the money. That is really poor financial planning.

 

I believe many contributors here (and on PCGS) don't actually realize the potential risk they take, not just to their financial position but to their future standard of living. Because many collectors here are (much) better off than the median, I also question whether they are really aware of how illiquid most of the coins they collect actually are.

 

The coins profiled here are disproportionately a lot more expensive than those bought by the lopsided percentage of collectors. They are usually "cheap" or at least moderately priced under the US pricing structure but only because the US price level is an outlier and in many instances, absurdly inflated.

 

I have made this comment many times and I will say it again. The financial position and the average standard of living in this country is in decline and its going to continue for the indefinite future. I expect most people to be worse if not much worse off later than they are today and disproportionately, will only be able to pay less for most coins.

 

 

For myself, I don't make a judgement on the merits of a position based on the tonal aspect of the opinion. When there is absolutely an impossibility of deciphering a Post by a person that is in my opinion rambling and incoherent and threatening and accusatory without knowledge and derisive and completely lacking in manners and politically accusatory of other members, I give no merit to the Poster. That is my opinion of the nature of the Posts by Mr. Cal. I neither agree nor disagree with him. I could not understand his points at all.

 

I do not have any "disagreement" with anyone. I found the Thread very informative. Mr. Seller has a very sound position.

 

I do not detect a one side against the other issue. In my opinion, the connecting thread throughout the Thread is the human aspect of the situation, and how business relationships are impacted by the actions of the customer and the business.

 

I don't disagree with your economic awareness warning at all. It is prudent. That is not the thrust of my thoughts, though. I have expressed my thoughts in my Reply to Mr. Seller, so I will not repeat again and be boring.

 

I enjoy reading your Posts.

[coinman_23885]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

 

I am also curious, from an intellectual stand point, why anyone who knows what they are doing would sell a coin for 60% of its FMV (defined as price realized in auctions). With the Internet, CAC, and auction firms like Great Collections, there really is no need for that. And if funds are needed quickly, there are firms like Edelmans where you can get short term loans (without inquiry into credit or income) on other collateral, while you properly liquidate the items of interest. Many auction houses also offer cash advances.

 

Bottom line: Unless people are selling absolute dogs, problem coins, dreck, or widgets (like modern proof sets), I am shocked you would have people selling to you at all at those levels.

[Calamerica]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

This business model makes a ton of sense. Easy to understand, hard to poke holes in it. Self-responsibility is something that is eroding rapidly in this country.

 

CAL who has the similar business model, and it works for me...

[Calamerica]

Cal,

If I am ever approached by anyone asking my opinion whether you are someone to have a business relationship with of any kind.....buy, sell, partnership, etc., I will be very direct in my response: In my opinion, no.

In my opinion, you do not know how to conduct yourself, or control yourself, or exhibit the minimum understanding of manners, and, in my opinion, you have a severe inability to comprehend the statements of others, which may cause a future detriment to anyone having such a relationship with you on a business level.

My opinion is based on your Posts in this Thread.

 

To the point: In my opinion, you have crossed the line. You have masked threats to others, you have been blatantly accusatory to others, you have openly accused others of political leanings that don't agree with your philosophy, without any prompting and without knowing the beliefs of those you attacked, and have denigrated political figures with derisive language and belittlement to make some unknown point, and in a manner suggesting an intent to disrupt the Thread.

 

For these reasons, I am going to ask the Mods to review your Posts, and decide the merits, if any, of your Posts.

 

I am suggesting that all members use the ignore function, in an effort to curb your desires to disrupt Threads in an unacceptable manner.

 

 

What a bunch of bull. Just give me your eBay handle and I will ensure you don't buy from me. Go ahead. The Mods know who I am.

 

CAL who gets good laughs at these "Internet Tough Guys" but have to call Mommy on me...

 

Do us all a favor and post your eBay ID Cal. I am sure most of the members of the coin forum would be sure to never trouble you with bids or purchases on eBay.

 

You get no favors from me. Don't ask.

 

CAL who knows better...

[World Colonial]

I agree with the "human element" you mention. Some dealers practice it and others do not. I tend to think that on average, those who are more successful than those who are not. The informed buyers needs to know the rules in advance.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I understand the points you are making but don't think they are realistic.

 

First, while the dealer in this particular instance could have taken the coin on consignment, it's apparent the OP needed the money right away. I don't know whether a quick sale would have been feasible under this option but consider it unlikely.

 

Second on the "investment" aspect, I assume that Seller11's post is written from the standpoint of a dealer. To a dealer as a business , it is an actual investment as opposed to the buyer where it is financially a form of SPECULATION, whether others here want to admit it or not..

 

I also don't see any reason at all why most (If any) dealers would provide the disclaimer you suggested. I presume some do so but most do not and I also don't see that coin sellers should have to act like a registered investment advisor, whether voluntarily or not.

 

Lastly, I agree with you that most buyers see collecting as a hobby but concurrently don't believe this applies EXCLUSIVELY to those who post here or on PCGS because of the price point at which they buy their coins and the "investment" they have in their collections.

 

Anyone who buys coins at the price point which many here and on PGCS do should be aware of these considerations. If they don't, they have no business making the purchase.

 

I make this last comment because while I believe most participants on this forum and PCGS are real collectors, I concurrently don't believe that they buy most of the coins they do primarily because of collecting. This should be apparent from the posting history and the (exorbitant) premiums which are frequently paid for completely trivial (if not imaginary) difference in actual quality. I don't see that this practice has much to do with collecting at all, no matter that most who buy these coins apparently believe otherwise.

 

 

 

I believe myself to be very realistic.

 

You may have read a bit to much in my Post. In simple terms, the differences in approach is the thought that only the investment side should be considered by the Dealer, and I suggest the investment side and the customer side should be considered, and my opinion is the Thrust of the Thread is found in the human equation. Your opinion is that it is not and therefore any opinion not based on your view of what the mindset should be when selling and buying a coin, if it is other than calculated investment, is not realistic.

 

Different opinions are always to be expected.

 

the rest of your thoughts are not germane to my reasons for my commentary on this Thread, and I am not of a mind to claim any person as realistic or unrealistic in their thoughts because of a certain ideology about life and how the life should be lived.

 

I will state that in my opinion a Dealer is involved in speculation, just like any other capitalist undertaking.

[Calamerica]

Thanks all for your input on this.

 

 

 

The truth is that I got a phone call about the coin with an offer of $1,400. I told the customer service person that my mother had passed away and that I needed $1,589 to cover the cremation expenses so I could bring my Mother back home.

 

The customer service person talked to this coin dealer and the best he could do was $1,450.

 

Of course I had to accept the offer because I am not a rich man and the priority was to bring my mother home.

 

I probably might have over paid for the coin but it is the rarer variety and a very tough series to find nice and I did not expect to sell it so soon.

Life goes on.

 

 

This is why I believe 100% that the price LeeG paid for that coin is irrelevant;

 

Your agenda is noted.

 

Your expertise in the market value area may be subject to interpretation, though, as is your assumption of persons and their intent and knowledge. This is supported by your admitted lack of knowledge of Mark Feld.

 

My suggestion is that whenever you have the need or feel the overwhelming pressure to be discourteous and accusatory and superior in knowledge of numismatics and business and Law, call on me. I am glad to be a target, and help you get through things. That way, you don't have to shotgun silliness.

 

Okay, I will take you up on you "calling me out" because, in YOUR words, of my so-called silliness, and discourteous behavior. b]As you say, help me through this case.

My posts are NOT indicative of my knowledge in Numismatics, business or Law, my posts are the INVITED posts of the OP, LeeG, and I rendered my posts, of which I back them all up 100%. If I am wrong anywhere, I will post said wrongfulness, but I know, as of right now, I am not[/b].

 

Your turn, Mr. Knowitall( what an avatar name... this is not going to be pretty)

 

We are getting somewhere.

 

You were doing fine until the second sentence.It is not a logical response. You are concurring that your Posts lack the knowledge of numismatics, business and Law that would be helpful in interpreting what you are attempting to convey, yet you believe your response is logical because you were invited by the OP to render illogical Posts, and that is somehow logical.

 

I can partially understand illogical logic....I really can. However, your last sentence is beyond deciphering as even illogical logic.

 

We need to try again. Start with a new second sentence. The first sentence was fine.

 

You can accomplish clarity, and get your point to be understood, if you try.

 

Once again, Mr. Knowitall, you THINK you understand the situation. You don't. My second sentence had NOTHING to do with your response. You just plain missed it, probably posting in a hurry thinking that I would not catch this simple mistake.

 

My way of responding to the INVITED thread is my direct speaking/writing manner. Not a bunch go gobbledy-gook that runs three times longer( and more boring) than necessary. My way: to-the-point. No middle-of-the-road commie so i can switch/wordplay the situation in a more favorable light.

 

So when are you going to tell me your eBay handle so I can block you from bidding my items?

 

CAL the Direct one...no Bill Clinton here...

[Houston Investor]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

 

I am also curious, from an intellectual stand point, why anyone who knows what they are doing would sell a coin for 60% of its FMV (defined as price realized in auctions). With the Internet, CAC, and auction firms like Great Collections, there really is no need for that. And if funds are needed quickly, there are firms like Edelmans where you can get short term loans (without inquiry into credit or income) on other collateral, while you properly liquidate the items of interest. Many auction houses also offer cash advances.

 

Bottom line: Unless people are selling absolute dogs, problem coins, dreck, or widgets (like modern proof sets), I am shocked you would have people selling to you at all at those levels.

 

Suit yourself how you run your operation. I don't owe you answers on anything nor care about your opinions. You can be shocked all you want to. My opinions are my own and I tell it like it is based on my experience. Auction prices are not necessarily Market Retail as in many instances these are blowout sells especially in this market. Numismatics is a hobby related retail business (CW Trends, etc) and buying can be at wholesale - CDN or less. Everybody knows this reality. Furthermore 5c on the dollar will not cut it in the coin business - that does not even cover variable selling expense let alone fixed costs . No, I don't spend $4500 on just one numismatic coin, not my preference. I might buy a couple of slabbed gold AGE or Saints and spend that much or a mix of various coins and currency.

[World Colonial]

The last part of my response is related to your prior comment about most collectors approaching their purchases as a collector. The point I was making is that for many who buy coins at the price points with the grades of those who post here and on PCGS, the historical posts indicate this isn't the primary motive.

[Calamerica]

The last part of my response is related to your prior comment about most collectors approaching their purchases as a collector. The point I was making is that for many who buy coins at the price points with the grades of those who post here and on PCGS, the historical posts indicate this isn't the primary motive.

 

You and Seller11 make 100% coherent sense of every post you guys submit, but we are all wasting our precious time and energy on people that are not willing to accept basic truths, and common sense reasoning.

 

The OP had questions re: his "emergency", and a few of us responded DIRECTLY as our opinions were actively recruited by the OP. As it turns out, the OP had a change-of-heart re: the Dealer in question, and "quits" the Forum, but reverses AGAIN, and has to post that d-bag masked comment. The proof is all here, it is what it is, and the world can see who is who here, and how they truly operate.

 

CAL the Direct War General whose favorite Historical figure is Napoleon Bonaparte

 

 

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

 

I am also curious, from an intellectual stand point, why anyone who knows what they are doing would sell a coin for 60% of its FMV (defined as price realized in auctions). With the Internet, CAC, and auction firms like Great Collections, there really is no need for that. And if funds are needed quickly, there are firms like Edelmans where you can get short term loans (without inquiry into credit or income) on other collateral, while you properly liquidate the items of interest. Many auction houses also offer cash advances.

 

Bottom line: Unless people are selling absolute dogs, problem coins, dreck, or widgets (like modern proof sets), I am shocked you would have people selling to you at all at those levels.

 

Suit yourself how you run your operation. I don't owe you answers on anything nor care about your opinions. You can be shocked all you want to. My opinions are my own and I tell it like it is based on my experience. Auction prices are not necessarily FMV as in many instances these are blowout sells especially in this market. Numismatics is a hobby related retail business (CW Trends, etc) and buying can be at wholesale - CDN or less. Everybody knows this reality. Furthermore 5c on the dollar will not cut it in the coins - that does not even cover variable selling expense let alone fixed costs .

 

Mr. Seller, I did not take his post as intentionally discourteous, maybe a little overzealous in choice of words, as we all are from time to time. Consider you have valid points and opinions no less valid than others. Internet expressions are always tough to control and be understood by the other guy, without personalizing.No need for being upset when your opinion is questioned. It is a discussion that has many facets, and while there are strong opinions, in my opinion there has been only one discourteous, threatening, disruptive, political poster. We should all keep it that way, if we can.

[coinman_23885]

John is correct that my post wasn't meant to be caustic or rude. Rather, if you have a steady stream of fresh QUALITY coins that you are purchasing so cheaply, I want a piece of the pie. I already have a LLC and it wouldn't be hard for me to start buying in this manner (perhaps even at prices I think are more fair). So I am truly curious as to what you are getting at 60%. If you are buying common, lower graded stuff, I wouldn't be interested. If you are being offered high end type (gem and above), then I would be interested.

[Calamerica]

Based on experience, primarily my research, and conversation the industry average markup over CDN Bid is around 40% or around a margin of 30% (Gross Margin before costs of the business). This is simply the reality of running any retail business. More than one dealer I have shared tables with at shows have said "I just pay 60-70% of what I can sell it for."

 

Investing in numismatic coins (especially big ticket items over $300) has large risk if forced to liquidate at bid (or below) in a slow market like the current one. As I have said before, any portfolio should be well leveraged (coins vs currency vs bullion material) for proper risk management.and this is the responsibility of the investor. Yes that is really peachy some nice dealer will buy back a coin close to or at the same price they sold it to an investor for after a short time. I really think all this debate over what a dealer buyback should be is really a moot, over blown issue as investors have ebay now to blow out anything. Just start it at 99c.

 

I am not the bank for someone's coins nor take responsibility for their investment decisions. If Dealer A at Table 28 will pay more, go sell it to him then. My choice is either to make an offer which works in my business ROI / inventory needs or simply to say something like "not buying, lack of funds." Don't be afraid to use those four magic words to walk away from a transaction you really don't want or can afford to make whether coins or not.

 

 

What type of material do you sell? While a 30-40% markup might be normal for coins under $300 and dreck, for higher end coins like most here pursue, a markup that high would be absurd. I just purchased a $4500 coin from a large national dealer, and the markup was more along the lines of 5% on that particular transaction, with many others in the 10%-20% range for coins in the $1000-$2500 range.

 

I am also curious, from an intellectual stand point, why anyone who knows what they are doing would sell a coin for 60% of its FMV (defined as price realized in auctions). With the Internet, CAC, and auction firms like Great Collections, there really is no need for that. And if funds are needed quickly, there are firms like Edelmans where you can get short term loans (without inquiry into credit or income) on other collateral, while you properly liquidate the items of interest. Many auction houses also offer cash advances.

 

Bottom line: Unless people are selling absolute dogs, problem coins, dreck, or widgets (like modern proof sets), I am shocked you would have people selling to you at all at those levels.

 

Suit yourself how you run your operation. I don't owe you answers on anything nor care about your opinions. You can be shocked all you want to. My opinions are my own and I tell it like it is based on my experience. Auction prices are not necessarily FMV as in many instances these are blowout sells especially in this market. Numismatics is a hobby related retail business (CW Trends, etc) and buying can be at wholesale - CDN or less. Everybody knows this reality. Furthermore 5c on the dollar will not cut it in the coins - that does not even cover variable selling expense let alone fixed costs .

 

Mr. Seller, I did not take his post as intentionally discourteous, maybe a little overzealous in choice of words, as we all are from time to time. Consider you have valid points and opinions no less valid than others. Internet expressions are always tough to control and be understood by the other guy, without personalizing.No need for being upset when your opinion is questioned. It is a discussion that has many facets, and while there are strong opinions, in my opinion there has been only one discourteous, threatening, disruptive, political poster. We should all keep it that way, if we can.

 

Wow! Someone threatened someone? I missed that!

 

Disrputive! I missed that one too!

 

Political poster? I don't think discussing politics is allowed on this Forum. Set the record straight, someone...

 

I wonder who he is labeling here???

 

CAL gathering the Artillery...

[Treeman]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! Funny how they go off track, on rare occasions ;-)

After getting through the whole mess, seems to me that Cal just stated the truth, but from a "too straightforward" stance. Had he stated the same thing, with a little "sugar coating", the thread would have ended a few pages ago...

 

Anyway, just to get everybody agreeing again, does anybody else notice the 63, 64, and even 65 Large Cents with the green corrosion residue on them? They always seem to be in the PCGS slabs. Could the slab material be the problem? And yes, I'm hijacking the thread so we can all be friendly again:-)

 

[coinman_23885]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! Funny how they go off track, on rare occasions ;-)

After getting through the whole mess, seems to me that Cal just stated the truth, but from a "too straightforward" stance. Had he stated the same thing, with a little "sugar coating", the thread would have ended a few pages ago...

 

With all due respect, for someone who has read this entire thread, you missed quite a bit. Cal errantly accused the OP of libel, which is far from the truth unless you completely disregard the definition of libel and tort law. And Cal then proceeded to attack members of this thread personally. Up until that point, this thread was fairly civil, including my discourse with Seller11.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Well well well...finding out a bit more and some good info on this Thread.

 

Some more parameters for those who continue to argue( troll as I call it):

 

No one needs permission to "deal with" me. If you want to deal with me, then do it. Don't ask Mark ( Feld I suppose) for his "blessings". Even if he is some kind of Mobster-type that send overgrown Goombahs to deliver messages, do it. I entertain everything and everything when it happens. That is my nice way of saying that I ain't scared of anybody or anything. Bring it. But be ready. I always am. I ain't here to make friends or to be P.C.

 

I am not going to keep combing over this thread, he said this, he said that. Apparently the law-degreed Juris Doctors love trolling. I hope those with the J.D.'s are making money off their hard-won degree. Maybe they will buy my coins someday. But I don't have a buyback policy. My world is simple: a deal is a deal. Period.

 

Wrong is wrong, and saying bad things about a Dealer here, which is NOT a collectors only Forum( Dealers are allowed too - anyone can sign up per NGC), is up to the OP. If someone wants to be wrong, so be it. What really irritated me is that LeeG received MAJOR benefit when the Dealer could have said "No". Then LeeG "apologizing" and waffling back-and-forth, a la Bill Clinton. Bit the hand that fed him. Hard for a person like me to sympathize with that. But you guys? One admitting getting kicked off of PCGS? I am a member of PCGS and will start looking there tonight and see what else I might discover.

 

Take care everybody and enjoy coin collecting.

 

CAL the Franklin Collector

 

 

Just an innocent example of a little "straightforward" talk, and boys being boys.

 

Everybody knows Mr. Feld is really the "Goombahs" Godfather, and Mr.Lee is secretly a past U.S. President impersonator. It is what he does. Everybody knows those dastardly Attorneys troll the Boards looking for their next victim.

 

And, all those people that got dumped by PCGS...well, that seals it. Get the private detectives started.

 

And, somebody please figure out what Libel is, darn it, because something happened around here, and we need to get to the bottom of it, even if we have to read the whole darn Thread again.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! Funny how they go off track, on rare occasions ;-)

After getting through the whole mess, seems to me that Cal just stated the truth, but from a "too straightforward" stance. Had he stated the same thing, with a little "sugar coating", the thread would have ended a few pages ago...

 

Anyway, just to get everybody agreeing again, does anybody else notice the 63, 64, and even 65 Large Cents with the green corrosion residue on them? They always seem to be in the PCGS slabs. Could the slab material be the problem? And yes, I'm hijacking the thread so we can all be friendly again:-)

 

I have decided to hijack the Thread back, so people can disagree if they want to.

 

On another subject, I was talking to some fellows on Arthur Ave, and they wondered how to sugar coat "Goombahs". I felt dumb. I didn't have an answer.

[Calamerica]

I can't believe I just read this entire thread! Funny how they go off track, on rare occasions ;-)

After getting through the whole mess, seems to me that Cal just stated the truth, but from a "too straightforward" stance. Had he stated the same thing, with a little "sugar coating", the thread would have ended a few pages ago...

 

Anyway, just to get everybody agreeing again, does anybody else notice the 63, 64, and even 65 Large Cents with the green corrosion residue on them? They always seem to be in the PCGS slabs. Could the slab material be the problem? And yes, I'm hijacking the thread so we can all be friendly again:-)

 

Thank you TREEMAN for your quick, short HONEST assessment of what "went down" in this Thread.

 

People have always rejected me for whatever reasons. I don't care to figure each individual's independent reasons are. Freud had his time and days, I am not Freud.

 

I do NOT "sugarcoat" anything. Not my style, never has been, never will be. Direct and honest-to-your-face is the best way, the honorable way, no Pearl Harbor Sneak attack needed. Politicians "sugarcoat" everything. Yet most sane people hate dislike Politicians because they cannot be trusted; lying is their M.O. But for me to tell the truth? People cannot handle that. Been there done that.

 

The "libel" vs. Slander thing is not an issue until someone decided to hire a J.D. THEN we would see what is what. But until that time comes, who really cares?

The Trolls care; anything they can stir the pot with they will. That is why they are trolls.

 

The Truth is a very hard thing to accept for most people. This Thread is a great example of that.

 

CAL who always has, and always will, tell it like it is...

 

 

[MikeKing]

I can't believe this thread hasn't been pulled.

[Hard Times]

CAL who always has, and always will, tell it like it is...

 

Hard Times, who for the first time in his life, has referred to himself in the 3rd person.........

 

http://uncyclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/HowTo:Refer_to_Yourself_in_the_Third_Person

 

From the website above: "The tendency to refer to oneself in the third person is often viewed by psychologists as a symptom of narcissism. In order to learn how to effectively refer to yourself in the third person, it is often desirable to understand the narcissist mentality, and develop an ability to "role-play" as an actual narcissist. Needless to say, the comedic potential of having this ability cannot be overestimated, but there is also danger, in that you may inadvertently develop strong narcissistic tendencies in yourself without realizing it."

 

Uh-oh I am going nuts.