Pics of my 4 Recent Downgrades From pcgs, and Yes, I can No Longer Post There.

[dragon]

telephoto, Thank you for your interest in my thread (two thirds of your entire post count). Certainly there are many other interesting threads here where you can spread your sunshine and good will?

[Conder101]

Do you also have any idea about how much they charge a dealer when they assign a ,odern proof coin a PR70CAM? Or a modern circ? (Caps removed)

As far as I know they charge the same amount as they do for a non 70 coin.

 

1) No matter what the circumstances, the grading service is correct and you are incorrect.

I think that is a bit extreme, I thing most would agree that the TPG are NOT always right.

 

3) If a coin was damaged while in the care of a grading service, they didn't do it and couldn't possibly have done it, therefore you must have done it or are imagining things.

Of course a coin could be damaged in the hands of the TPG, the problem is you have to be able to prove that it happened in their hands. And that is a very difficult proposition.

 

4) Cracking a coin out of a holder regardless of reason is insanity and you deserve what happens from that point forward. The grading services don't make mistakes and it's always your fault no matter what. All accountability rests with you and you are wrong.

No cracking a coin out isn't always insanity, but once you do you do deserve whatever happens from that point forward. Once you remove the coin from the slab the TPG is off the hook for anything previous.

[Raisethis2]

I think a few of you are being especially hard on the OP, here's why.

 

People who have been collectors for a while try (often over many, many years) to become proficient graders. Once convinced that a given coin "should be" a given grade the submission process avails itself to them.

 

When you ship a coin expecting a certain technical grade, if you know what you're doing, that's what you get. What happens however is that with many coins the process of "Market Grading" factors into the mix. In the case of OP's coins, there were a number of factors and designations. Each has it's own independent weight when determining the value of a coin. In this case it seems all those factors worked against the OP on each coin.

 

He's been beat up enough about the fact that he elected to crack rather than seek reconsideration. I'm sure he's learned that lesson. What lingers is the supposition that a coin technically graded one thing is in a holder saying something else.

 

About 19 pages back I suggested he should resubmit after a second crack out. Maybe not all at once, but resubmit. That's his only chance of restoring some lost value and peace of mind.

 

The grading services bring this kind of ill will upon themselves because they decided to go beyond technical grading. My hunch is that technically OP is exactly correct. That is only part of the puzzle for TPG's however.

 

 

[O mint bug]

A hypothetical question:

 

If a coin is sent in five times and gets an MS-65 each time, and then is sent in a sixth time and gets an MS-66, and then is sent in a seventh time and gets an MS-65, has it been downgraded?

 

Misgraded a time or two.

[O mint bug]

I hate to hear about this type of loss. Frankly I think PCGS is tightening up their grading standards to be the "Holder of Choice ". I think it is a marketing campaign and is somewhat effective.

 

This makes no sense. This would actually be counterproductive to PCGS's sole goal of making money. If you have two respected services, would you send to the company that would grade it most generously when the spread between grades is large or the one that is going to be stingier and potentially cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars?

I hate to hear about this type of loss. Frankly I think PCGS is tightening up their grading standards to be the "Holder of Choice ". I think it is a marketing campaign and is somewhat effective.

 

This makes no sense. This would actually be counterproductive to PCGS's sole goal of making money. If you have two respected services, would you send to the company that would grade it most generously when the spread between grades is large or the one that is going to be stingier and potentially cost you hundreds or thousands of dollars?

 

It would depend on if it was a seller (dealer) and they thought it would possibly upgrade or cross to PCGS if the market perceives them to be the tougher grader and the coin command a premium as it is on some types of coins. As an owner/collector I keep it simple as I buy only the coins I am happy with in their present holder and will not pay a large premium just for a green sticker. If you get a cross or an upgrade on an expensive coin then you have a coin that generally would sell at a premium to your cost, sometimes at a large spread on expensive coins. I don't subscribe to the CAC being a coin god or either TPG. A good example is a PCGS AU 58 1851 O just went for a bit over $15,000 plus the buyers premium, well below the price guide. A slap to both PCGS and CAC. It should have as the coin was not appealing and seemed to have quite a bit of wear for a 58. Dealers represent a substantial amount of the TPG business and CAC guys and it is them that get catered to as opposed to the collector. That is what PCGS wants to have everyone feel they are the premier holder to have but I doubt it will work. NGC has graded far too many extremely rare coins like a 1913 V nickel for this to happen. Again it is to attract dealer ( large repetitive submissions ) business and they are good at spotting under graded coins as well as well struck coins that should and do command a premium relative over cost. They package them right before selling them. On a final note many times they do not crack the slab but send it with the provision that it should be cracked only to cross or upgrade to avoid the downgrade of a downgrade. Based on the initial post PCGS does seem to be getting tougher on Morgan's based on what I read but I do not collect or know them. Why crack the slab or allow an grade change unless it is for the better?

[MarkFeld]

Do you also have any idea about how much they charge a dealer when they assign a ,odern proof coin a PR70CAM? Or a modern circ? (Caps removed)

As far as I know they charge the same amount as they do for a non 70 coin.

 

I have heard that there are instances in which one or more grading companies do charge higher grading fees for certain modern coins that they grade 70, rather than a lower number. As one example, in the case of 1995W PR70 silver Eagles, I believe the "grading" fee is hundreds of dollars. And if so, that bothers me a great deal.

[coinman_23885]

Do you also have any idea about how much they charge a dealer when they assign a ,odern proof coin a PR70CAM? Or a modern circ? (Caps removed)

As far as I know they charge the same amount as they do for a non 70 coin.

 

I have heard that there are instances in which one or more grading companies do charge higher grading fees for certain modern coins that they grade 70, rather than a lower number. As one example, in the case of 1995W PR70 silver Eagles, I believe the "grading" fee is hundreds of dollars. And if so, that bothers me a great deal.

 

What is the amount? Are you sure that some people aren't complaining that the market "value" of the piece exceeds $10,000 and would therefore need to be submitted under the "walk through" tier? This is the first I have heard of this, and I find it interesting.

[MarkFeld]

Do you also have any idea about how much they charge a dealer when they assign a ,odern proof coin a PR70CAM? Or a modern circ? (Caps removed)

As far as I know they charge the same amount as they do for a non 70 coin.

 

I have heard that there are instances in which one or more grading companies do charge higher grading fees for certain modern coins that they grade 70, rather than a lower number. As one example, in the case of 1995W PR70 silver Eagles, I believe the "grading" fee is hundreds of dollars. And if so, that bothers me a great deal.

 

What is the amount? Are you sure that some people aren't complaining that the market "value" of the piece exceeds $10,000 and would therefore need to be submitted under the "walk through" tier? This is the first I have heard of this, and I find it interesting.

 

Submitters are supposedly not merely being charged the higher grading fee that would correspond to a higher value submission tier. I don't know the exact amount, but I have been led to believe it is more than $200.

[AHFreak]

Let's be clear. .. the grading fee for a "normal or regular" modern in PR70DCAM, is $500 bucks. The FEE FOR THE 95-W IN PR70DCAM IS $5 THOUSAND DOLLARS .. This info comes from a dealer who has been charged these numbers...

[MarkFeld]

Let's be clear. .. the grading fee for a "normal or regular" modern in PR70DCAM, is $500 bucks. The FEE FOR THE 95-W IN PR70DCAM IS $5 THOUSAND DOLLARS .. This info comes from a dealer who has been charged these numbers...

 

The fee for "normal or regular" moderns in PR70DCAM can't be $500 - many of the coins aren't worth that much.

[AHFreak]

It is not all moderns, and I don't know how exactly to distinguish between what is a 500 dollar modern and and what isn't. . the specific examples I know that are 500 are 70's Era proof IKES in 70DC, and 70'S Era proof Kens in 70DC...

[MarkFeld]

It is not all moderns, and I don't know how exactly to distinguish between what is a 500 dollar modern and and what isn't. . the specific examples I know that are 500 are 70's Era proof IKES in 70DC, and 70'S Era proof Kens in 70DC...

 

Thanks and that sure sounds like a situation that would give the appearance of a potential conflict of interest.

[mommam17]

The dealer is buying a grade? Is this how it is? Never heard of it, but I don't do moderns.

[coinman_23885]

The FEE FOR THE 95-W IN PR70DCAM IS $5 THOUSAND DOLLARS .. This info comes from a dealer who has been charged these numbers...

 

If true, it is absolutely a conflict of interest that should be made public in my opinion. I have always questioned the logic of those paying five figures (and in the instance of one particular coin that almost hit the 6 figure mark) when PF69 DCAMs can be had for $4500 or less. If this is true, those people should definitely re-examine if for no other reason than the graders would have an obvious bias, and the increased fee could be argued to be a pay off to get the desired grade.

[AHFreak]

I just feel like it's one of those moves that gives this hobby another black eye... For anyone who hasn't looked at the prices these freshly graded 70DCams are fetching go look. .. it's thousands in many cases, 5 figures is not unheard of.. now for the collectors who jump on a coin like that, for their registry set let's say. .. they do that not realizing what's happening or why that coin is even available all the sudden after 2-3 decades of it being next to nonexistent. what is that collector going to hate/blame/etc 2 years down the road when their coin is worth a small fraction of what they paid because the population has grown exponentially? They will blame mostly the coin dealers, the coin market, anyone and everyone except the actual party who caused it which would be the party who slabbed/sold that 70DCAM in the first place. .. I know many really good coin dealers, honest hard working guys... these guys do not need another reason for collectors to believe they are shady fraudsters and cons... not.

[AHFreak]

And no the dealers aren't knowingly buying the grade upfront.. in fact, the person who I learned this from was so completely blindsided by all of this that he literally lost sleep over it. .. it was something like this. .. Oh wow, a couple of my IKES graded 70DC... that's weird since it's never happened in 25+ years of submitting them. .. Oh, and imagine that they are charging me $500 per on those. .... he about lost his mind.

[coinman_23885]

Which service(s) allegedly do this?

[AHFreak]

Um...... IMO there are only two (2) that matter... it is one of the ones that "matters" but it is not this one.

 

I believe I specified earlier in the thread.

 

Even though I know for absolute 100% that fact what I am talking about here is exactly what is really happening right now, I probably should keep my mouth shut about it.

[mommam17]

To me, this is shocking and a major problem.....

[jpcienkus]

And no the dealers aren't knowingly buying the grade upfront.. in fact, the person who I learned this from was so completely blindsided by all of this that he literally lost sleep over it. .. it was something like this. .. Oh wow, a couple of my IKES graded 70DC... that's weird since it's never happened in 25+ years of submitting them. .. Oh, and imagine that they are charging me $500 per on those. .... he about lost his mind.

 

So if I understand this instance correctly...

 

- Said dealer submits a great looking IKE to XXXX for grading

- XXXX grades the Ike PF70 DC

- Instead of charging the normal fee, XXXX charges said dealer $500

 

So the dealer didn't say to XXXX here's $500, how about a PF70 DC. Is that correct?

 

I'm only wanting to make sure I understand the facts as you've conveyed them.

[AHFreak]

And no the dealers aren't knowingly buying the grade upfront.. in fact, the person who I learned this from was so completely blindsided by all of this that he literally lost sleep over it. .. it was something like this. .. Oh wow, a couple of my IKES graded 70DC... that's weird since it's never happened in 25+ years of submitting them. .. Oh, and imagine that they are charging me $500 per on those. .... he about lost his mind.

 

So if I understand this instance correctly...

 

- Said dealer submits a great looking IKE to XXXX for grading

- XXXX grades the Ike PF70 DC

- Instead of charging the normal fee, XXXX charges said dealer $500

 

So the dealer didn't say to XXXX here's $500, how about a PF70 DC. Is that correct?

 

I'm only wanting to make sure I understand the facts as you've conveyed them.

 

EXACTLY... Dealer had no idea it was even a thing/option/possibility/etc.... Furthermore, 3PG XXXX never said beforehand, or mentioned anything along the lines of "oh by the way, a 70DC on certain coins from here on out will cost many many multiples of what our agreed grading fee is/was/always has been/etc.... XXXX never even mentioned it and it wasn't until dealer sees his bill, A BILL THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN CHARGED TO HIS CREDIT CARD that he learns of the "new deal" or whatever the F you want to call it.

 

 

What a great way for a publicly traded company to increase revenue without increasing costs/output/expenses eh??? Kind of loses any and all sight of what this is or was supposed to be all about.. Profit driven machines operate for one reason and one reason only... to profit.

[mommam17]

So the dealers not buying a grade but socked with higher fee because the coin graded 70? Still does not sound right.

[AHFreak]

I agree its not right.... It sort of want to puke just thinking about it even being a possibility actually... I mean, as a dealer, an honest one who has made an honest living selling coins for 2+ decades, what would you do if this were to happen? I mean, honestly? what would you do? I don't think this is something that should have anything to do with the "dealers" and I know that it is a train wreck waiting to happen and that the dealers are going to be the ones where majority if not all of the perceived blamed gets placed.. for example. Lets say dealer gets coin X in PR70DC and it as a current market value of 3K. say dealer sells it at his store, to a collector who is thrilled to buy it and dealer gives a deal and sells coin X at 2500.. One year later the collector is in a bind and needs some cash... takes the coin back to coin dealer and dealer says, well unfortunately the population on these has tripled in the last year, and the last one that sold was 3 months ago, it sold for 1000, and there are 4 availalable on the market currently for 500-750.... dealer couldn't pay more than what he could buy them for right?? So dealer offers the guy 350. According to the collector, who is going to be the bad guy in that scenario? It wont be grading co XXXX as far as he is concerned. that I know for sure.

[telephoto1-migration]

telephoto, Thank you for your interest in my thread (two thirds of your entire post count). Certainly there are many other interesting threads here where you can spread your sunshine and good will?

 

Sorry, I didn't realize that we needed the thread creator's permission to post.

I'm also sorry that you are unable to come to grips with the fact that you simply messed up and cracked out perfectly good pieces with visions of dollar signs on upgrades, only to have it backfire. This is not a unique happenstance; it's happened to many others, and on coins with much higher values. Wouldn't it be logical to simply resubmit these pieces if you are so firm in your convictions? Or if you are truly "done" with TPGs wouldn't it be logical to simply move on rather than continuing to beat this particular dead horse...on two separate forums?

Feel free to have the last word if you wish; I won't be here to read it- something that will please you no end, I'm sure.

 

Good Luck.

[jpcienkus]

And no the dealers aren't knowingly buying the grade upfront.. in fact, the person who I learned this from was so completely blindsided by all of this that he literally lost sleep over it. .. it was something like this. .. Oh wow, a couple of my IKES graded 70DC... that's weird since it's never happened in 25+ years of submitting them. .. Oh, and imagine that they are charging me $500 per on those. .... he about lost his mind.

 

So if I understand this instance correctly...

 

- Said dealer submits a great looking IKE to XXXX for grading

- XXXX grades the Ike PF70 DC

- Instead of charging the normal fee, XXXX charges said dealer $500

 

So the dealer didn't say to XXXX here's $500, how about a PF70 DC. Is that correct?

 

I'm only wanting to make sure I understand the facts as you've conveyed them.

 

EXACTLY... Dealer had no idea it was even a thing/option/possibility/etc.... Furthermore, 3PG XXXX never said beforehand, or mentioned anything along the lines of "oh by the way, a 70DC on certain coins from here on out will cost many many multiples of what our agreed grading fee is/was/always has been/etc.... XXXX never even mentioned it and it wasn't until dealer sees his bill, A BILL THAT HAD ALREADY BEEN CHARGED TO HIS CREDIT CARD that he learns of the "new deal" or whatever the F you want to call it.

 

 

What a great way for a publicly traded company to increase revenue without increasing costs/output/expenses eh??? Kind of loses any and all sight of what this is or was supposed to be all about.. Profit driven machines operate for one reason and one reason only... to profit.

 

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm just sitting here shaking my head. Shenanigans. I'm kind of relieved to know that you can't buy the grade, but at the same time, this business (>$$ for a 70) practice doesn't sit well with me either.

[coinman_23885]

Thanks for the confirmation. I'm just sitting here shaking my head. Shenanigans. I'm kind of relieved to know that you can't buy the grade, but at the same time, this business (>$$ for a 70) practice doesn't sit well with me either.

 

I'm not going to create any conspiracies here, but if that is accurate, then it still doesn't make the stuff in the part in red true. Had he refused to pay the fee that was allegedly above and beyond his contractual agreement, would they have put it in a PF69 DCAM holder? Would they have sent it back to him and refused to encapsulate it at all?

[AHFreak]

FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO READ THE PART ABOUT 3PG XXXX CHARGING 500 PER 70DC ON CERTAIN COINS. . I TALKED TO MY FRIEND AFTER HAVING THIS DISCUSSION HERE TODAY AND HE SAID GOT A CALL LAST WEEK AND THAT IT'S ALL BACK TO NORMAL AND THERE ARE NO MORE $500 70's BEING ASSIGNED. .. I ASKED IF HE THOUGHT HE STILL MIGHT GET THE UNLIKELY 70 HERE AND THERE. . TO WHICH ANSWERED "WE WILL SEE"... SO WHO KNOWS. IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY DID IT FOR A MONTH OR 6 WEEKS AND THEN STOPPED. ... I WISH I KNEW MORE.

[MJ]

FOR ANYONE AND EVERYONE WHO READ THE PART ABOUT 3PG XXXX CHARGING 500 PER 70DC ON CERTAIN COINS. . I TALKED TO MY FRIEND AFTER HAVING THIS DISCUSSION HERE TODAY AND HE SAID GOT A CALL LAST WEEK AND THAT IT'S ALL BACK TO NORMAL AND THERE ARE NO MORE $500 70's BEING ASSIGNED. .. I ASKED IF HE THOUGHT HE STILL MIGHT GET THE UNLIKELY 70 HERE AND THERE. . TO WHICH ANSWERED "WE WILL SEE"... SO WHO KNOWS. IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY DID IT FOR A MONTH OR 6 WEEKS AND THEN STOPPED. ... I WISH I KNEW MORE.

 

I'm still in the doubting Thomas Camp that this happened exactly as described and until proven I will go with Urban Legend . There is no many moving parts and shift of the story to make heads or tails of this. I reserve the right to change my mind with some confirmation. I did seek some out. For now this is hearsay. Who is the dealer?

 

BTW I'm sure the OP is thrilled his thread was hijacked.

 

Mark

[coinman_23885]

I agree. I wish someone would come forward with evidence. If this is true, I think collectors and dealers have the duty to come forward so that the community can self-regulate.

[AHFreak]

To be honest i wish id have kept my mouth shut.... I'm certainly not here to prove or convince anyone nor do I care if anyone believes it or not. .. facts are facts... as far as the community "self regulating" if you would have read my last reply, the part about "everything being back to normal as of last week" it seems to me as if someone somehow already regulated everything right back to the way it was before 500 dOlla 70's...