FAKE NGC SLABS
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I'm no slab expert but I'm 100 percent certain this nefarious Thilandian b@stard is selling fake NGC slabs:

 

1835-fake003.jpg

 

Here are a couple shots of another slab with an MS57 grade doh! :

 

1862-fake001.jpg

 

1862-fake002.jpg

 

I ran across these last night just a few minutes before the closing bell - here are the links to the ended auctions. Luckily no bidders!

 

BRITISH INDIA VICTORIA ONE RUPEE 1840 SILVER COIN

Supposed NGC AU56 3890432-134 Cert # Not Found

 

BRITISH INDIA VICTORIA ONE RUPEE 1882 SILVER COIN WITH 4 DOT

Supposed NGC MS57 2622345-006 Cert # looks up an 1869 S$1

 

BRITISH INDIA WILLIAM ONE RUPEE 1835 SILVER COIN

Supposed NGC AU55 3607631-002 Cert # looks up an 1873 S$1

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Unfortunately it looks like they have hologram thing working on the back, which is a pain the butt. :mad: These slab counterfeiters are the worst. :devil: They have the potential to do more harm to the hobby than crooks who only copy the coins. :eek:

 

I wasn't going to say anything about the dumb grading numbers, but others did. Unfortunately that is easily correctable.

Edited by BillJones
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Unfortunately it is only going to get worse.

We now have -- or should have -- the ability to digitally copy a coin down to the last minutae as well as encode in a hologram the information on the specific coin that is supposedly inside.

 

Then have optical readers or some App on a smartphone read it and confirm both the slab and the coin match and are legit.

 

They're rolling out new security measures with credit cards later this year, the coin hobby has to keep up !!!

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They're rolling out new security measures with credit cards later this year, the coin hobby has to keep up !!!

 

Are you talking about the chips that have been used on Credit Cards in Europe for 10 years? lol

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... well, you can also verify the coin on NGC certification lookup.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/

 

I do always verify that the coin I see (consider buying) matches the one in the picture taken by NGC - that way, if they are going to counterfeit it - they have to also do a good job of matching the coin in the picture and the cert number.

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I see the potential for devastation here, so I do not want this to come across like it's ok or like it should be accepted as part of the hobby or anything like that. As bad as it is, this is an issue that has 1 solution. It's not costly, it won't put any more strain on the grading companies which would lead to increased fees... it will almost certainly and in very short amount of time put the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are making these terrible fakes right out of business. .. EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE. EDUCATE YOURSELF, AND THEN PASS IT ON AND DO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO EDUCATE OTHERS... I came into this business terrified to even buy a coin, raw/slabbed didn't matter. he'll I bought my first PCGS graded CC Morgan which even had the shield on it (secure?) And then convinced myself it was probably fake which led me to taking it to a dealer who laughed at me when I asked "is this real" as I handed it to him.. my whole point is, if we spent as much time educating collectors as we spent spreading the fear mongering propaganda about the rampant cons trying to get you, and if we made resources available versus this "protect the knowledge so the bad guys can't get it" concept. . . Collectors (especially the ones who matter most-newbies)would be given a little bit of confidence in that if they do their own due diligence, they can protect themselves from being victimized. .. especially by dummies who are making this garbage. . I mean, if you can't take one look at those listings and see FRAUD written all over them, than you have no business buying coins. ... yet. EDUCATE. TRAIN YOUR EYE. EDUCATE YOURSELF MORE. .. BE CAUTIOUS and be smart. but don't let fear prevent you from participating in this hobby like I did in the beginning, I wonder how many people never make it past that initial fear and nevery get involved with the hobby? Instead of this mindset of, lets not discuss the reasons why it's sooooooo painfully obvious these slabs/coins are fakes so we don't educate the "bad guys" on how to get better. .. let's recognize that bad guys don't need us to help them figure out what's wrong with their fakes, the ones who care figure out what they are doing before we ever see this anyways. . So let's educate, promote education, discuss education and talk about how to protect yourself, versus this same old discussion on all the bad guys just waiting for prey... that's just my thought. Again, what is happening is unacceptable but I just feel the only real viable long term solution is to open up the discussion on how collector protects his/her own self so that these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons selling pathetic Junk don't make any profit. . Which will make it harder for them to wanna do it/keep doing it.

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Great post Chris! I have also made the mistake in the other direction. I went way overboard thinking that for some reason I had to "catch up"......not very smart! I gained some really nice coins but have many more "not so nice" coins. I am really starting to delve into collecting by educating myself. I also have thought about a group of collectors (especially EBay) that can identify the "site killers" and spread the word in a subculture way. I was really gullible at first thinking that coin collectors are all real honest and would never do anything like sell an unopened 1950 proof set and when you open it up there is no mistaking that not only has it been tampered with but the coins have obvious whizzing or other harsh ways to make the coin "look good". I caught onto that real fast or I would be hocking my house!! There are a lot of things that show up with just the 5X loupe that would not show up unaided. I don't think I have any counterfeit coins because I don't deal/collect ultra rare coins. I would gladly communicate these counterfeit coins if I were knowledgeable about what to look for and a list of like "25 most counterfeited coins" to start. I'm sure there is a list somewhere on this world wide morass....(web).

 

Bud (shrug)

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I

I see the potential for devastation here, so I do not want this to come across like it's ok or like it should be accepted as part of the hobby or anything like that. As bad as it is, this is an issue that has 1 solution. It's not costly, it won't put any more strain on the grading companies which would lead to increased fees... it will almost certainly and in very short amount of time put the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are making these terrible fakes right out of business. .. EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE. EDUCATE YOURSELF, AND THEN PASS IT ON AND DO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO EDUCATE OTHERS... I came into this business terrified to even buy a coin, raw/slabbed didn't matter. he'll I bought my first PCGS graded CC Morgan which even had the shield on it (secure?) And then convinced myself it was probably fake which led me to taking it to a dealer who laughed at me when I asked "is this real" as I handed it to him.. my whole point is, if we spent as much time educating collectors as we spent spreading the fear mongering propaganda about the rampant cons trying to get you, and if we made resources available versus this "protect the knowledge so the bad guys can't get it" concept. . . Collectors (especially the ones who matter most-newbies)would be given a little bit of confidence in that if they do their own due diligence, they can protect themselves from being victimized. .. especially by dummies who are making this garbage. . I mean, if you can't take one look at those listings and see FRAUD written all over them, than you have no business buying coins. ... yet. EDUCATE. TRAIN YOUR EYE. EDUCATE YOURSELF MORE. .. BE CAUTIOUS and be smart. but don't let fear prevent you from participating in this hobby like I did in the beginning, I wonder how many people never make it past that initial fear and nevery get involved with the hobby? Instead of this mindset of, lets not discuss the reasons why it's sooooooo painfully obvious these slabs/coins are fakes so we don't educate the "bad guys" on how to get better. .. let's recognize that bad guys don't need us to help them figure out what's wrong with their fakes, the ones who care figure out what they are doing before we ever see this anyways. . So let's educate, promote education, discuss education and talk about how to protect yourself, versus this same old discussion on all the bad guys just waiting for prey... that's just my thought. Again, what is happening is unacceptable but I just feel the only real viable long term solution is to open up the discussion on how collector protects his/her own self so that these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons selling pathetic Junk don't make any profit. . Which will make it harder for them to wanna do it/keep doing it.

 

It's a very worthy goal. But unfortunately, on a practical basis, it's far easier said than done.

 

Sure, most buyers can easily learn enough to spot the poor counterfeits. But in the case of the "better" counterfeits, even buyers with considerable knowledge often have a very difficult time. If a professional coin dealer with years of experience has a tough time, what of the collectors without such experience?

 

The grading companies, collectors and dealers need to work together to make it more difficult for the counterfeiters. Otherwise, the negative effect on the hobby and repercussions will continue to grow.

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I understand Mark. Sometimes the "unintended consequences" will take over the main intent! The bad guys are getting better and better at counterfeiting; At least that's what I read. I'm sure the grading companies are on the lookout? hm

Bud

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Great conversation here and I agree Education has to be 1st priority. As to the Slab Fakes, I'm quite uncertain how a TPG can effectively combat the forgery of their holders. Re-design - FORGED, update Hologram - FORGED, Re-design/update hologram/add a dozen more security features - FORGED. It won't ever stop. To the forger it's a game.

 

I wasn't looking for the specific coins shown, I just happened across one of them and the ONLY reason I paused was the oddball grade - AU56 ??? Checked the Cert #, no good. I'm not a dummy by any means, but if I had been a willing buyer of any of those specific coins and the grades hadn't been so damn oddball I might have pulled the trigger. Come on forty bucks - who's going to put the time and effort into making a fake of that? Yeah, I know it still would have been my own fault for not having checked the cert # if I had been dumb enough to bid without doing so.

 

Collecting coins as much as I can tell, at least for the better stuff, is moving towards third party certification. Three years ago I knew diddly squat about coins. I haven't had a mentor, I don't know or converse with any dealers on a regular basis - what I've learned I learned on my own. I lurked at this board for a good long while before finally getting up the courage to post anything, and even now I am hesitant to say much at all about what a coin should grade, what the strike looks like, if the damned thing has been cleaned or not. I read almost every post here, grab old auction catalogs to read whenever I can; even if they are a decade old, ANA/Photograde/The Art and Science of Grading Coins I've read them and re-read them. I'm still learning and dauntingly seem to have a far way to go.

 

The TPG's should be proactive in their education of the identification and authentication of their slabs. The US Gov't publishes this thing "Know Your Money" and I remember when the new $100 note came out they specifically pointed out what things to look for to authenticate a genuine US hundred dollar bill. Why not right on the home page: SLAB AUTHENITICATION with all the relevant links and markers to help the novice know what to look for.

 

Now, on to the coins themselves . . . well hell, I can't hardly tell you what VAM my Morgan Dollar is so how am I going to know that High-Relief Saint is a darned fangled "Omega"? Recently, I was on the hunt for a Trade Dollar for my Dansco 7070 and was so worried about getting a counterfeit I paid extra for the slab and broke it out. Sure, I've had ample opportunity to by a raw TD and wasn't looking for a high-grade monster-toner or anything of the like - I found a nice XF with a minor rim ding that subjected the coin to being "Details" and paid a slight premium simply because it was slabbed and I knew it was genuine.

 

"Buy the Coin not the Slab" is the mantra I've heard over and over, but sometimes the slab does count and the TPG's should realize this.

 

--end :insane:

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Great conversation here and I agree Education has to be 1st priority. As to the Slab Fakes, I'm quite uncertain how a TPG can effectively combat the forgery of their holders. Re-design - FORGED, update Hologram - FORGED, Re-design/update hologram/add a dozen more security features - FORGED. It won't ever stop. To the forger it's a game.

You have to digitally encode/encrypt the actual coin in that holder and insert something that automatically 'breaks' if someone tries to crack the slab.

 

If it costs another few bucks for a slab, so be it.

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Great conversation here and I agree Education has to be 1st priority. As to the Slab Fakes, I'm quite uncertain how a TPG can effectively combat the forgery of their holders. Re-design - FORGED, update Hologram - FORGED, Re-design/update hologram/add a dozen more security features - FORGED. It won't ever stop. To the forger it's a game.

You have to digitally encode/encrypt the actual coin in that holder and insert something that automatically 'breaks' if someone tries to crack the slab.

 

If it costs another few bucks for a slab, so be it.

 

except.. what about the crack out game? I do not think I understand what you are suggesting actually.

 

But, When you talk about price to grade, and then suggest that oh if another few bucks per is necessary than so be it... I can only guess that you personally have paid for very few coins to be graded..... it adds up fast my friend, and for most of even the big time dealers I know with better rates because of their bulk numbers... its getting tougher and tougher for them to continue to run their business.... A few bucks per wouldn't be something to just shrug off as "so be it" IMO.

 

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I
I see the potential for devastation here, so I do not want this to come across like it's ok or like it should be accepted as part of the hobby or anything like that. As bad as it is, this is an issue that has 1 solution. It's not costly, it won't put any more strain on the grading companies which would lead to increased fees... it will almost certainly and in very short amount of time put the insufficiently_thoughtful_persons who are making these terrible fakes right out of business. .. EDUCATE EDUCATE EDUCATE. EDUCATE YOURSELF, AND THEN PASS IT ON AND DO AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE TO EDUCATE OTHERS... I came into this business terrified to even buy a coin, raw/slabbed didn't matter. he'll I bought my first PCGS graded CC Morgan which even had the shield on it (secure?) And then convinced myself it was probably fake which led me to taking it to a dealer who laughed at me when I asked "is this real" as I handed it to him.. my whole point is, if we spent as much time educating collectors as we spent spreading the fear mongering propaganda about the rampant cons trying to get you, and if we made resources available versus this "protect the knowledge so the bad guys can't get it" concept. . . Collectors (especially the ones who matter most-newbies)would be given a little bit of confidence in that if they do their own due diligence, they can protect themselves from being victimized. .. especially by dummies who are making this garbage. . I mean, if you can't take one look at those listings and see FRAUD written all over them, than you have no business buying coins. ... yet. EDUCATE. TRAIN YOUR EYE. EDUCATE YOURSELF MORE. .. BE CAUTIOUS and be smart. but don't let fear prevent you from participating in this hobby like I did in the beginning, I wonder how many people never make it past that initial fear and nevery get involved with the hobby? Instead of this mindset of, lets not discuss the reasons why it's sooooooo painfully obvious these slabs/coins are fakes so we don't educate the "bad guys" on how to get better. .. let's recognize that bad guys don't need us to help them figure out what's wrong with their fakes, the ones who care figure out what they are doing before we ever see this anyways. . So let's educate, promote education, discuss education and talk about how to protect yourself, versus this same old discussion on all the bad guys just waiting for prey... that's just my thought. Again, what is happening is unacceptable but I just feel the only real viable long term solution is to open up the discussion on how collector protects his/her own self so that these insufficiently_thoughtful_persons selling pathetic Junk don't make any profit. . Which will make it harder for them to wanna do it/keep doing it.

 

It's a very worthy goal. But unfortunately, on a practical basis, it's far easier said than done.

 

Sure, most buyers can easily learn enough to spot the poor counterfeits. But in the case of the "better" counterfeits, even buyers with considerable knowledge often have a very difficult time. If a professional coin dealer with years of experience has a tough time, what of the collectors without such experience?

 

The grading companies, collectors and dealers need to work together to make it more difficult for the counterfeiters. Otherwise, the negative effect on the hobby and repercussions will continue to grow.

 

Yes Mark, I understand that outside of a picture perfect world, it may not even be possible at all, let alone doable on any sort of practical basis... I just come with a perspective of one of the newbies and man I'll tell you what, I came into this business thinking that I would surely get ripped off if I bought a coin, and that coin dealers were all out there to take advantage of anyone and everyone they possibly could because they were all crooks, and even the ones who weren't crooks were greedy... At the same time, I was being told.. "find a dealer that you trust." over and over again, I still read it all the time.... find a dealer you can trust.... Well, if all dealers are shady and just chomping at the bit to take advantage of the newbie by overcharging for problem free coins, and dumping problem coins on... and I don't know the difference, how would it be possible to find one I can trust??? So, for me, it all starts with EDUCATION, KNOWLEDGE, OPEN DISCUSSION, TRAINING THE EYE, ETC...

 

I just feel that is the best starting point that will lead to any sort of effective solution. That's starting at the bottom... I also believe that it needs t be addressed at the top as well, which would be the largest dealers/names/grading company's in the business initiating some working-together-ness about realistic solutions or if nothing else, figuring out, how can we be as pro-active as possible with this?

 

Anyways, I know its naïve to think that there really is a black and white solution, I just share my perspective in situations like this because I truly feel we all need to be discussing this with a different attitude is all. Instead of the "lets not discuss it because people will learn how to be better at the fraud" I feel it should be, "lets discuss these issues openly and make sure anyone and everyone knows that it is possible to protect oneself from being screwed whether it be from buying a fake, or a getting one pulled over on you by a shady dealer or whatever... Here's what happens, heres what you need to do to avoid being vicitimized.

 

Now, obviously with the better stuff, the actual "real coins" or at least made of exactly the same stuff, the same way so to imply being real... Yeah, that is a whole other level of issue, but I feel that your average collector isn't buying coins like that, and once they get to that point, they know a little more about the situation as a whole. I could be wrong there, but I know for me personally, when I get to a point where spending big money on a coin, I will know every marker that genuine real specimen has before pulling any triggers.

 

 

Anyways, it sucks that it is such a volatile and real issue, but its not going away anytime soon... I feel like best we can do is try our best to quit making it so easy for the bad guys by educating ourselves, and being diligent without being fearful, because its to awesome to let fear keep you out of the hobby...

 

IMO

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... well, you can also verify the coin on NGC certification lookup.

 

http://www.ngccoin.com/certlookup/

 

I do always verify that the coin I see (consider buying) matches the one in the picture taken by NGC - that way, if they are going to counterfeit it - they have to also do a good job of matching the coin in the picture and the cert number.

Works as long as the coin has been slabbed in the past five years. For the other 24 years worth of slabbed coins there are no pictures.

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PCGS started adding pictures about three years ago, but they only include pictures of coins that have had truvues paid for, possibly some Secure Plus coins, and coins with photos included in Registry sets. That is a small step, a very small step, in the right direction. Possibly some day they will take the step of picturing all the coins they slab, but as a company that lies to portray themselves as an industry leader, they are years behind.

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Yes, it is very disappointing that PCGS can't post of pictures of every coin that they have graded in recent years with their "verify the serial number" service.

 

Here's something that might help and should be very easy to do and cheap....the year the grading took place.

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except.. what about the crack out game? I do not think I understand what you are suggesting actually.

That slab would be destroyed, no problem. I am assuming that these 'sonically sealed' slabs can not be easily opened and then re-sealed, allowing the coin inside to be altered.

 

But, When you talk about price to grade, and then suggest that oh if another few bucks per is necessary than so be it... I can only guess that you personally have paid for very few coins to be graded..... it adds up fast my friend, and for most of even the big time dealers I know with better rates because of their bulk numbers... its getting tougher and tougher for them to continue to run their business.... A few bucks per wouldn't be something to just shrug off as "so be it" IMO.

I am very sensitive to costs, my friend. You are correct in that I have actually never submitted coins so I have a bias there.

 

But if we added $1 or even $2 to the cost of each slab and it got rid of -- 80% ? 90%? 99% -- of the counterfeits out there, would that be worth it to all of us ?

 

I venture to say YES.

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except.. what about the crack out game? I do not think I understand what you are suggesting actually.

That slab would be destroyed, no problem. I am assuming that these 'sonically sealed' slabs can not be easily opened and then re-sealed, allowing the coin inside to be altered.

 

 

 

 

Oh yes, I did not quite understand what you were saying, now it makes perfect sense.... I wouldn't know, but I have heard some pretty eye-brow raising stuff about exactly what you are suggesting as a possibility here.

 

With that said though and while I think what you are suggesting about making the legit ones "tamper proof" I still think there is a bigger issue out there that would remain to be solved... which is the counterfeiters who are like the ones who started this discussion, not using legit slabs and tampering with the to swap out coins, but making crappy, similar looking slabs and putting crappy labels inside that are made to imply that it is a NGC holder... and lets not forget putting a fake/cleaned/circ./altered/etc.. coin inside that fake slab in hopes of making some quick cash..

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Right now it seems that the glut of fake slabs on the market are counterfeit PCGS. Fake NGC slabs seem to be largely confined to world coins.

 

Here's the current list of American NGC fakes kept at The Black Cabinet.

 

http://www.theblackcabinet.org/series/ngc/

 

You'll notice it's a brief list and includes one contemporary counterfeit that flummoxed graders for a number of years. (PCGS' list, on the other hand is lengthy, and there are many more to be added.)

 

If you know of any others, I'd be grateful if you were to bring them to my attention. :-)

Edited by Steve Caruso
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Unfortunately it is only going to get worse.

We now have -- or should have -- the ability to digitally copy a coin down to the last minutae as well as encode in a hologram the information on the specific coin that is supposedly inside.

 

Then have optical readers or some App on a smartphone read it and confirm both the slab and the coin match and are legit.

 

They're rolling out new security measures with credit cards later this year, the coin hobby has to keep up !!!

 

And yet, with all these technologies, this thief could not produce a holder of the correct size or shape, nor could he print grades that really existed. It's this guy that's painfully behind the times ;)

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I wish the grading services would start inserting RFID chips hidden in the slab that can be read externally with a reader. This technology is widely used in dogs and I see no reason why it wouldn't work with a slab. The reader could give a secondary number that could be used (in addition to the certification number on the label) to verify it. You would need the actual coin in hand to know the secondary number hidden on the chip, which would keep people from going through auction archives to round up valid cert numbers.

 

These probably cost about a $1 to make:

 

http://www.robotshop.com/en/tag-it-hf-I-circular-24-rfid-tag.html?gclid=Cj0KEQjwuI-oBRCEi87g0K3O8OoBEiQAb25WAVpZgn2j4YTTGz1a66JuZVBcPTqF5J2bLoJG1qLtno8aAvs98P8HAQ

 

Edited by coinman_23885
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Of course that would mean everyone would have to have their own RFID chip reader, it still wouldn't help verify slabs online, and fake slabs with the correct secret number could still be made by collecting numbers from slabs seen in person such as at an auction viewing. So the RFID chip would help for about 6 months to a year.

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