1964 SP/SMS coins
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If the Clain-Stefanelli quote is accurate, any such coins must be compared to others in SI. As noted before, first strike coins will not look like normal circulation pieces.

 

The "specimen" designation is probably reasonable, since they were clearly selected in some special way. My question is were the dies intentionally prepared to be different? If yes, then why; and where is the documentation to backup the multitude of claims about the "1964 SMS" pieces?

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If the Clain-Stefanelli quote is accurate, any such coins must be compared to others in SI. As noted before, first strike coins will not look like normal circulation pieces.

 

The "specimen" designation is probably reasonable, since they were clearly selected in some special way. My question is were the dies intentionally prepared to be different? If yes, then why; and where is the documentation to backup the multitude of claims about the "1964 SMS" pieces?

Wasn't there some type of document destruction which occurred in the 70's referred to as the "Paperwork Elimination Act" or something like that?

 

It does not matter though since the coins question have easily recognizable characteristics.

 

Again, I would suggest a detailed comparison of the NNC coins with known 1964 SMS coins to see if there is some type of connection.

 

I know that NGC did grade a bunch of these coins and am wondering if detailed photography exists.

 

At any rate, Roger asked "What evidence is there for 1964 "SMS" pieces being struck? I have not examined the extant mint documents at NARA, but I presume someone found letters or memoranda about the pieces." and I simply threw in this new discovery for the Modern Coins within the NNC.

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"It does not matter though since the coins question have easily recognizable characteristics."

 

It absolutely matters.

 

The quote from V. Clain-Stefanelli establishes a category of pieces made from normal dies. The "1964 SMS" coins might, or might not, fit within that category. If documents were destroyed relating to the subject, it makes getting to the truth much more difficult. Of course, we don't know what was destroyed and what survived...and I presume nobody looked in NARA in Philadelphia or College Park.....

 

(I doubt the authentication companies invested the time and money for direct research before printing out little labels with a declaration of faith on them....OK...that's cynical -- but too much of the business and lore of numismatics is built on guesses and "well, that looks different" statements, when original sources might exist.)

 

 

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Hi, I recently acquired in 2019 a  1964 JFK with dangling four remnant and underneath it in a box of mixed foreign  coins was a 1964 25c quarter.  This being the little brother to the 50c one.  I was exited to do more research and hope to come up trumps with these two. I am new to the coin collecting, and have only just started a few months , deciding to collect American memorial cents,and quarters etc here in Ireland.I have gone in depth to divulge information on these two 1964 coins, hand writing it all out. Then two weeks from finding these first two, another JFK 1964 appeared in the same West Cork area, which I found to be a possible candidate for the SMS rarity type. This second one weighs 12.50 exactly, but the other 64 JFK weighs slightly less by 0.30g and did appear to be more frosted. I first thought that it was no coincidence the two brother coins were together when the old man sold them to me from his little cardboard box of old family heirloom coins. I thought that the 25 cent was more shiny than the 50, and later discovered that this is normal for the SMS elusive range. To verify these coins, all we have are pictures and notes from pcgs, along with our own detective work . My 25 cent needs to match the one that recently sold in 2019 for nine thousand dollars. Yes it does. But mine is heavier weighing in at 6.33 grams as opposed to 6.30 grams. The top two arrows are not touching the leaf, and the lower leaf over the A is the same, and it is explained that there were three types made for 1964. A type a ,type b and type c. To match the nine thousand one you need a type A where the S is at its closest to the previous letter, and mine is also one of these. So for anyone to convince me that I don't actually have the 1964sms 25c (little brother) they will have to discount the nine thousand dollar one and it's description by Pcgs as fraud, along with convincing me that the afforsaid coins if this type were Minted as regular business strikes for that year, which renders the whole thing null and void if this is the case ! I would like to sell this coin if there is anyone out there interested ? Also would like to contact other persons with same coins. Thank you !

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7 hours ago, Hugh history said:

Hi, I recently acquired in 2019 a  1964 JFK with dangling four remnant and underneath it in a box of mixed foreign  coins was a 1964 25c quarter.  This being the little brother to the 50c one.  I was exited to do more research and hope to come up trumps with these two. I am new to the coin collecting, and have only just started a few months , deciding to collect American memorial cents,and quarters etc here in Ireland.I have gone in depth to divulge information on these two 1964 coins, hand writing it all out. Then two weeks from finding these first two, another JFK 1964 appeared in the same West Cork area, which I found to be a possible candidate for the SMS rarity type. This second one weighs 12.50 exactly, but the other 64 JFK weighs slightly less by 0.30g and did appear to be more frosted. I first thought that it was no coincidence the two brother coins were together when the old man sold them to me from his little cardboard box of old family heirloom coins. I thought that the 25 cent was more shiny than the 50, and later discovered that this is normal for the SMS elusive range. To verify these coins, all we have are pictures and notes from pcgs, along with our own detective work . My 25 cent needs to match the one that recently sold in 2019 for nine thousand dollars. Yes it does. But mine is heavier weighing in at 6.33 grams as opposed to 6.30 grams. The top two arrows are not touching the leaf, and the lower leaf over the A is the same, and it is explained that there were three types made for 1964. A type a ,type b and type c. To match the nine thousand one you need a type A where the S is at its closest to the previous letter, and mine is also one of these. So for anyone to convince me that I don't actually have the 1964sms 25c (little brother) they will have to discount the nine thousand dollar one and it's description by Pcgs as fraud, along with convincing me that the afforsaid coins if this type were Minted as regular business strikes for that year, which renders the whole thing null and void if this is the case ! I would like to sell this coin if there is anyone out there interested ? Also would like to contact other persons with same coins. Thank you !

Welcome to the forum.

While I don’t expect you to believe me, chances are close to zero that you have a 1964 SMS quarter and/or half dollar. I receive inquiries on such coins almost every week - sometimes multiple times - and not a single one has panned out. 

To my knowledge, the only known examples came from a series of Stack’s auctions many years ago. None have turned up from anywhere else. If you can post pictures, it might help.

Edited by MarkFeld

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Hope this discussion continues and some additional documentation is found.

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As far as I am to be told , proof 25c  coins were made from 1956 through 1964. The Philadelphia Mint produced a nine coin series of major Washington Quarter varieties ( the proof reverse Washington Quarters, ) and from their initial discovery they were referred to as Type B reverse or Variety Reverse. Mine doesn't fall into that category as its a type A.

The 1965 quarters  have type C reverse, and the silver Denver quarter has type A reverse.

 

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On 2/20/2015 at 4:46 PM, RWB said:

If the Clain-Stefanelli quote is accurate, any such coins must be compared to others in SI. As noted before, first strike coins will not look like normal circulation pieces.

 

The "specimen" designation is probably reasonable, since they were clearly selected in some special way. My question is were the dies intentionally prepared to be different? If yes, then why; and where is the documentation to backup the multitude of claims about the "1964 SMS" pieces?

Hi, I found a link that explains a bit more regarding mint dies etc. This article was published March 13 2015 issue of the Coin Dealer CND Monthly Supplement Newsletter and written by the author below. The author has given permission to publish this article and if any questions you can contact him below. Dr Richard S Apoel PO box 791, Oakhurst, NJ 07755. 800_782_2646. rsappel@yahoi.com. This article was taken from ( proof reverse Washington Quarters ) patriotnumismatics.com

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3 hours ago, Hugh history said:

1565082932372-405654526.jpg

 

The pictured coin is not an SMS example.

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2 hours ago, Hugh history said:

Thank you for your observation. So do you know what it is ?! Or why is it not

I have seen at least a few examples in hand - both in and out of holders - and yours looks nothing like them. It appears to be a circulated business strike.

Edited by MarkFeld

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Hi again all 1964 Washington Quarter SMS  experts. Could you please tell me if it is normal to have coin such as mine in the photo,which is overweight ( 90 per cent silver. ). I will post in another picture of it on a scales. Thanks.

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I am thinking that the 64 quarter ( shown ) is an overweight (pr) proof coin ? Interestingly his big brother that came with him , the JFK 1964 half is underweight at 12. 30 g ( not the 12.50 as specified for the year.) I have another JFK 1964 with weighs12.64g. Does this matter or is it unimportant ? 

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33 minutes ago, Hugh history said:

I am thinking that the 64 quarter ( shown ) is an overweight (pr) proof coin ? Interestingly his big brother that came with him , the JFK 1964 half is underweight at 12. 30 g ( not the 12.50 as specified for the year.) I have another JFK 1964 with weighs12.64g. Does this matter or is it unimportant ? 

Whether it started out life as a Proof or a business strike, the 1964 quarter is now worth its silver content of about $3. Not all coins will weigh to exact specifications.

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An average 1964 quarter should weigh 6.25 grams, with a tolerance of +/- .194 grams, so your quarter could weigh between 6.056 and 6.444 grams, and still be within specs.

Tolerance on the 1964 half is .259, so between 12.241 and 12.759 grams is acceptable.

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So much bologna; so little cheese.

 

:)

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