Distinguishing circulated proofs from business strikes

[World Colonial]

What is the lowest graded proof you have seen that was still recognizeable as a proof? I recall seeing a comment here or on PCGS mentioning a US coin graded PR-30. If so, would this be the lowest grade or one lower?

 

The reason I ask is because there are two issues in the NGC South Africa Union census recorded as business strikes that I believe either are proofs or might be.

 

The first one is a 1926 farthing in Fine, the only one in the combined census. Mintage records record 16 proofs and no business strikes. I exchanged emails once with the owner of this coin but could provide no additional information to them. I believe this coin is an impaired proof.

 

The second is the 1931 3P or tickey. The current accepted mintage for this coin is 62 proofs and 66 business strikes. The NGC census lists a single VG, fine and VF.

 

In a recent post on the BidOrBuy (BoB which is SA's eBay equivalent) forum, someone compiled sales records on the 1931 Union silver from 35 dealer price lists form 1967-2002. None were listed though I understand the NGC VG-8 was sold by a dealer for R70,000 (about $10,000 at the time) maybe five years ago. I have also never heard of this coin being sold at public auction.

 

From second hand sources, I am aware of two coins which were described as mint state. One belonging to the late Frank Mitchell (a leading collector in South Africa whose ZAR collection was recently sold by DNW) and a second by a family in the UK who purportedly acquired a 1931 presentation set in 1932.

 

I provide this background on the 1931 to support that business strike tickeys likely exist. Of the coins in the census, I suspect that the VG and fine cannot be distinguished from an impaired proof while the VF might.

 

What do you think?

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1852 3c.silver, Proof 50.

[okbustchaser]

That I remember having personally seen? AU 55 1877 half dollar.

 

Lowest graded proof that I know of? PCGS lists a Proof 06 1895 Morgan. Of course, I don't know if one could tell it was an impaired proof or not if it wasn't a proof only year.

[MarkFeld]

1852 3c.silver, Proof 50.

 

I am unaware of any Proof 1852 Trimes of any grade. Was that perhaps, a typo?

[brg5658]

I recall Tom Bush posting a PR-12 or PR-15 example of a Gobrecht Dollar I believe...I can't remember exactly the grade, just that it was very low.

 

EDIT: Just saw this PCGS graded PR-04 Gobrecht Dollar sold by Goldberg's in 2012 for $5250...

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

1852 3c.silver, Proof 50.

 

I am unaware of any Proof 1852 Trimes of any grade. Was that perhaps, a typo?

 

Thank you Mark.

Typing on one of those little 7" thingys...1862

I know that you know that I know that....

 

BTW, I think this is the first time I used Mark, isn't it? I am slipping.

[World Colonial]

I recall Tom Bush posting a PR-12 or PR-15 example of a Gobrecht Dollar I believe...I can't remember exactly the grade, just that it was very low.

 

EDIT: Just saw this PCGS graded PR-04 Gobrecht Dollar sold by Goldberg's in 2012 for $5250...

 

Is this a proof only issue like the 1895 dollar? I don't recall which if any Gorbrecht dollars are not proofs.

 

Below, I have included two links similar to the coins I described. Same design and grades but just a different year and denomination.

 

1925 florin which I bought from Heritage. Probably equal to or somewhat above average for the grade for this design. Maybe it would be possible to identify a proof like it in similar condition from the rims?

 

http://coins.ha.com/itm/south-africa/world-coins/south-africa-george-v-florin-1925-/a/231250-62140.s

 

I could not find an image of a graded example in fine condition but here is one ungraded. The details is probably similar to the 1926 farthing.

 

http://www.bidorbuy.co.za/item/169692140/SAU_Silver_1925_sixpence_fine_as_per_photo.html

[RWB]

Your first task is to determine how the AS proofs were made....what mechanical features differentiate them from circulation strike coins. Whatever some list claims are useless without a better understanding of the coinage products being discussed.

[World Colonial]

The price lists I referenced were simply dealer inventory. I was using the lists along with the other anecdotal information I provided for the 1931 3P as an indication of their scarcity because its possible that no business strikes actually exist (or ever did), since except for two second hand accounts, no one I know claims to have ever seen one except maybe that VG-8 which may or may not be a proof. I make this last comment even though NGC designated it as a busines strike as they make mistakes on ocassion, including misclassification of a 1947 2/6 which was later corrected after I had it conserved.

 

To my knowledge, the dies were sent to the South African Mint in Pretoria from the British Royal Mint in London. Not sure if this was true throughout the Union coinage period (1923-1960) but according to the acknowledged leading expert on this series, this was the practice at least up to 1928.

 

So to provide a reply to your comment, whatever process was used in the UK was also presumably used in South Africa but I don't know enough about this subject or British coins to come to a conclusion one way or the other.

[RWB]

Hydraulic press; screw press; collar design; die differences for proofs; die surfaces and relief treatment; post strike treatments...?

 

Are you sure about London dies? Bombay made dies also....including some for the Philadelphia Mint during WW-II.

 

Without details concerning manufacturing, it is very difficult to fully understand the meaning of "proof" in the context of a specific national coinage.

 

As you note, the dealer lists are just "lists" with no new research to support their claims.

[MarkFeld]

1852 3c.silver, Proof 50.

 

I am unaware of any Proof 1852 Trimes of any grade. Was that perhaps, a typo?

 

Thank you Mark.

Typing on one of those little 7" thingys...1862

I know that you know that I know that....

 

BTW, I think this is the first time I used Mark, isn't it? I am slipping.

 

Sorry, Mr. M. I don't know and I am going to resist the temptation to read all of your posts in order to find out.

[World Colonial]

Hydraulic press; screw press; collar design; die differences for proofs; die surfaces and relief treatment; post strike treatments...?

 

Are you sure about London dies? Bombay made dies also....including some for the Philadelphia Mint during WW-II.

 

Without details concerning manufacturing, it is very difficult to fully understand the meaning of "proof" in the context of a specific national coinage.

 

As you note, the dealer lists are just "lists" with no new research to support their claims.

 

The dealer lists included no claims. It was simply this collectors attempt to find instances of a prior sale of these coins (the 1931 Union silver which includes the 3P) as a business strike.

 

Here is a link to the SA Mint website => http://www.samint.co.za/History%20of%20SA%20Mint.aspx. In this summary, it is stated that the dies were made by Kruger Gray. I should have included this earlier.

 

It also states the coins were made in the same manner as those in London. Sorry, but I don't know enough about manufacturing methods to provide any more explanation. All I know is that the South African proofs I have owned, they don't seem to be any different than other brilliant proofs I have seen from elsewhere during this period or near it. I make this statement to contrast these coins with others such as US matte proofs, a few "specimen" strikes I own and earlier proofs such as the 1746 UK "Lima" issues which I have never inspected in person but which I understand differ from those most collectors think of as a proof strike.

 

The reason I asked this question originally is because I suspect it is possible that these low grade (VG and Fine) coins listed as circulation strikes in the census might actually be proofs. The 1926 farthing, I'm pretty sure it is because I don't see why one non-proof would have been struck and if it had been, I suspect it would exist today in much better condition.

 

The other alternative for this coin is that maybe it was struck with the proof dies but not on blanks which were prepared in the same way. Or, maybe it was a defective strike that was just released into circulation. This is what I believe occurred for the 1936 farthing "business strikes". Mintage records record three and the NGC census today lists four non-proofs. I conclude this from Alex Urruzi's (the leading expert on this series) claim that only proof dies were sent to South Africa.

 

For the 1931 3P, its possible that the VG and fine are circulated proofs. Even though I believe business strikes exist, it isn't unprecedented for them to circulate by accident. Don't know this is what happened but given the Union coins in these grades (per the image I included), I don't see how anyone would really be able to tell the difference irrespective of the manufacturing method.

 

I have brought up this possibility on the BoB forum to make those collectors aware of it. The 1931 3P in proof is somewhat scarce with a mintage of 62 and presumably somewhat fewer survivors. The circulation strike, its the most prominent (though not necessarily most expensive) coin in the Union series and a major British Commonwealth rarity. Whoever bought that NGC VG-8 which I understand they did for $10,000, I suspect that if is later classified as an impaired proof, its probably worth at most $100. I don't see that anyone would really want it.

[RWB]

In circulated condition, the shiny "proof" surface is your least reliable piece of information. The key points lie in other parts of the coin such as edge, rim, etc. etc. These are controlled by the dies and by the equipment used to make the coin.

 

"I don't see how anyone would really be able to tell the difference irrespective of the manufacturing method."

 

This can be done, but you need solid information on how circulation and proof coins were made.

[DWLange]

Coincidently, the current NGC E-News includes the first of two columns I wrote on this very subject: http://www.ngccoin.com//news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=2828

 

Part 2 will appear in this month's newsletter, which should be sent shortly.

[World Colonial]

Coincidently, the current NGC E-News includes the first of two columns I wrote on this very subject: http://www.ngccoin.com//news/viewarticle.aspx?NewsletterNewsArticleID=2828

 

Part 2 will appear in this month's newsletter, which should be sent shortly.

 

Thanks for the notice, I will read them.