Official "Hey please check these scores" Thread

[Architecht]

 

There's a new method of requesting score corrections detailed in this post!

 

http://boards.collectors-society.com/sho...e=0#Post1012437

 

Thanks,

Arch

 

 

 

Ok, with the various observations about specific coins scores needing attention getting scattered into many different places, I think that it will be hard to follow what's what. So to help this process along, I'd like to do the following:

 

1) Place all requests for score reviews here as a reply to this thread

 

2) Try not to let the thread get cluttered up with replies to replies. It will make it hard to pick out the coin info from more general discussion. By all means, though, if you have an opinion specifically about someone's request to change a score that requires discussion, start a new thread on it.

 

3) Please ALWAYS provide the following:

---a) Whether this relates to a TYPE SET score or a DATE SET score

---b) The specific SET, SLOT and COIN where you noted the issue

---c) a LINK/URL to the score details for that slot

---d) The relevant scores and market values (to your knowledge) of the coins

---e) Any general comments you have about why you think this scoring needs to be changed and to WHAT it needs to be changed. This can take the form of either merely a comment on the underlying market values, OR a specific suggestion for the final score

 

Thanks,

Arch

[snizzenfixit]

Franklin Proof set

All PF 60 - 65 and many PF 66 and 67

Link

As far as market value on all these coins... you have GOT to be kidding, it is like 100 scores

 

Phil

[keithdagen]

Arch,

 

Great idea for a thread. I'm about to bug out for a few days, but I'll try to analyze some of the scores on vacation.

[coinman1794]

All date set Washington Quarters in MS65-MS66 are very low, and many MS67's and 68's are too.

 

An example is 1962-D MS66. It gets 8 points. Combined pop is less than 250 and there are only about 20 graded higher. And the pop: 20, MS67 only gets 320 points.

 

Another example is 1957 MS66. It gets 5 points. MS67 gets 19 points, but there are only a few graded higher. You essentially can't do any better than 67 and it's only 19 points. Also, MS68 is only 420, but an MS68 coin would cost thousands of dollars.

 

Jefferson nickles. Some examples are:

 

1960 Finest known is MS66. It gets 28 points. A nonexistent MS67 gets 182 points.

 

1966 Finest is MS66. It gets 76 points. It's combined population is about 11.

 

[coinman1794]

Most MS64FBL Franklin halves should be worth more than 3 points. 1949-D, 1950-D are examples.

[Fairlaneman]

Arch:

 

The list is extensive just in the Mercury Dime Series. To give you suggestions without the knowledge of what NGC uses for the Market Value of a coin would be impossible. Truley I believe that a Comprehensive review needs to be done useing Population figures and Market value. Its just a plain fact that many MS 64 and 65 coins within some series have a lower population and a higher market value than some MS 66 and 67 coins and the Registry does not reflect this correctly.

 

I suppose a Collector could give you a list but its not a Collectors personal Registry, its NGC's and for the General Public so NGC should review and make the changes if they deem them necessary. Thru the last few months collectors have pointed out examples to NGC so now IMO the Ball is in NGC's hand.

 

A review would probably be very time consuming and with some cost also. As long as NGC came out and said they were going to review the Registries I believe most collectors would be quite willing to wait untill time permitted NGC to do the Reviews. For me there is no rush as my coins are going to be in my possesion for some time.

 

You made Me break my word as I said a few weeks ago that I would not Post about Weighting again.

 

Ken

[Guest]

Hello Arch My point review question concerns date set mint state jeffersons. Started collecting these when ngc graded the roll hoard from texas a decade ago. So its safe to assume i have been watching the market. I will debate two dates for now. The 45-P in 67 no steps has a pop at ngc of 208 and earns 450 points, quite a lofty amount for a non fs coin i might add! Now take the 49-P in 67 no steps, with a pop of 2 it earns 335 points. Makes me wonder if ngc is lowering the points because of the price difference, how can that be because how does one price a pop two coin. Is it because the the 45-P is considered the pricey stopper to the war nickel set? Or is it a move by powers unknown to let the market run up the price for retail complete silver nickel sets? I have been offered many 45-P nickels in 67 for under 75 dollars. And who knows how many i purchased. As for the 49 is ngc keeping the points lower anticapating a new hoard of low value coins being submitted? Ponder this for awhile............. VAMAN8

[Fairlaneman]

OK.... here is one you might check. 1930S Merc in MS65FB. NGC Pop is 18 with 16 higher and the Total MS Population is 60. Points allowed 989.

 

Now you might compare the 30S to a 1942P in MS67FB that has a Population of 190 in just 67FB and a Total MS Population of a KaZillion. Points allowed for the 42P in 67FB is 989. Now there is 1 MS68FB coin that deserves its Points but these 67 Coins ?

 

My NGC Weighted Coin of The Week.

 

Ken

 

PS:

 

Arch:

 

Also that "I am going to miss the car" BUGS Me !!! My Fairlane Will Not get sold for anything, not even Coins.

[keithdagen]

OK, here is a long one.

 

This analysis refers to the the post 1964 coins of the USA Type Set, found here.

 

All opinions will relate to the BASE SCORE, which will be the 1922-1935 Peace Dollar (Low Relief) , specifically the fact that this coin gets 341 points in MS-65. A nice example sold on E-Bay yesterday for $65.

 

LINCOLN MEMORIAL CENTS:

 

Proofs, scores OK, but non-CAM and CAM scores a little high.

MS, scores OK.

 

JEFFERSON NICKELS:

 

1938-present weights

 

The Proofs are high relative to the MS coins. A PR-69UC can be had for under $15 , yet gets more points that a MS-67FS. A MS-67FS is still bringing slightly over $100 in the market.

 

For this slot, relative to the Peace Dollar, MS should be raised slightly, and PR lowered.

 

1942-1945 Silver Jefferson Weights

 

Proofs look good. I see an E-Bay sale of a PR-66 Jefferson (1942) for $130 and the PR-66 score is almost 2x the MS-65 Peace Dollar in points and dollar value.

 

MS with no Full Steps might be slightly high, with a MS-67 recently selling for $30. This coin has almost 2/3 of the points of the Peace Dollar at $65.

 

MS with Full Steps needs to be tweaked up a little. MS-67FS recently sold for $90, but gets about the same as the lower Peace Dollar.

 

ROOSEVELT DIMES:

 

Clads, 1965-present

 

First, the 1992-present Silver proof should not be used in this slot. It is a 90% silver coin, same composition as the 1946-1964 coins, and is a different metal than the 1965-present coins. The rest of the proofs look OK. MS scores are OK as well.

 

WASHINGTON AND STATEHOOD QUARTERS:

 

Clad 1965-1998

 

First, the 1992-present Silver proof should not be allowed for this slot. Same reasoning as the dime. MS scores are slightly high, as a MS-67 (304 points) was recently sold for $40.

 

1976 Bicentennial Clad Scores

 

Proof scores look good as well as the MS scores.

 

1976 Bicentennial Silver

 

MS scores are too high, a MS-68 recently went for $143 and the points should be in the low 700's instead of 856. PR-69UC scores are also too high, with a recent example selling for $45. The points are 502, 160 higher than the base Peace Dollar which costs $20 more.

 

1999-2008 Statehood Quarters

 

MS quarters are too high, as MS-67 examples can be had for under $20 , but are still scored at 271 points. The 68 scores are a tad high as well, as more of these are certified daily and the prices are coming down rapidly on all but the 1999 issues. By default, the PL scores are probably a tad high too, but examples of them at auction are hard to find.

 

Next up when I get more energy, the Kennedy halfs and Ike dollars. Home sick today, so have time to look at the stuff.

 

[DWLange]

Thanks to all for this valuable input. We will be studying it to see where changes can be made. It may seem that it's taking too long, but we're dividing our time between updates to existing sets and the demand for new sets.

[Oldtrader3]

There are some problems with the "D" Washington Quarters (1952D-1958D). These quarters do not start picking up any scores until MS67. In most cases there are effectively NO coins in this series above MS66 available for any "D" coin (NADA!!). It is a Catch 22 situation that needs some adjustment.

 

I have bought some of these MS66 "D" coins because someday, someone is going to realize that there is NO "D" Quarter inventory above MS66 for these dates, period, zip, nada!!.

[Guest]

Modern Commerative Set

1982 Washington in an MS 69 Grade

 

http://www.collectors-society.com/registry/CoinScoresInSet.asp?IDSetType=75

 

The Score for this coin is 147 while a score for an 1996 Swimming 50C is 724.

A total of 280 MS Washingtons have been graded by NGC, 55 have been given the grade of MS 69. Only 39 Swimming halfs have been graded by NGC but 35 of them recieved an MS 69 grade. Although there are far more Washington halfs than Swimming halfs I would bet there are far less MS69's. I don't think the same care was given in minting the 82 halfs as the 96 halfs, at least from what I have seen. Also the value of an 82 MS 69 Washington is at least five times that of a 96 MS 69 Swimming. I think this half should get a score of at least 800.

[keithdagen]

Re: the Washington half vs the Swimming half, the Washington half is extremely hard in MS-69.

 

On Teletrade, a Swimming in PCGS MS-69 sold for $85 on 9/9/02. A Washington in NGC MS-69 sold for $425 on 8/7/02, and a PCGS MS-68 recently sold for about $120 on E-Bay.

 

For the Washington, the MS-69 score is as elusive as MS-70's for most modern commems. Bad packaging and handling make these hard to find without slide marks even in the mint packaging.

[keithdagen]

OK, here's a look at the modern halves and dollars that are in the USA Type Set. Once again, all comparisons are to a MS-65 Peace Dollar 1922-1935, which gets 341 points in MS-65, market value of $65.

 

HALF DOLLARS:

 

1964 SILVER

 

For MS, the scores are a bit low at the MS-67 level. Last Teletrade sale (4/1/02) of a PCGS MS-67 was for $625, and the coin only gets 724 points. That was the only PCGS or NGC Teletrade sale in the last year.

 

For PR, the non-Cam is a little high in PR-69. An NGC example recently traded for $25 here. The scores for the CAM are a little high as well, with a NGC PR-69CAM trading for $79 here. The scores for the UCAM piece are a little low, with the piece trading for $110 in NGC PR-66UCAM and going up to $1,100 in NGC PR-69UCAM .

 

1965-1970 SILVER CLAD

 

For MS, I am assuming that the SMS pieces do not count for this slot. The MS-66 slot is a little high, with recent examples trading at $21 for a PCGS piece. The MS-67 slot is too low, with only one example being found on Teletrade in the last year, with a 1967 trading on 11/21/01 for $1,100.

 

For PR, a PCGS PR-69DCAM 1968-S sold for $228 recently and a PR-68DC went unsold with an opening bid of $60. Scores for the proofs should be reduced accordingly, and the CAM and non-CAM scores reduced relative to changes in the UCAM.

 

1971-PRESENT CLAD

 

For MS, the scores look good with a caveat. If 2001 pieces are eligible, the MS-68 scores are high, with pieces going for around $125 for the 2001-P. The PR scores look good as well.

 

1976 BICENTENNIAL CLAD

 

For MS, scores are good through MS-66. MS-67's are extremely rare, with only about 25 pieces graded total between PCGS and NGC. Last Teletrade price was $675 on 2/20/02. I sold mine about a month ago and had two offers near 4 figures for the coin. The PR scores look good.

 

1976 BICENTENNIAL SILVER

 

For MS, the MS-68 score is a little low. I recently sold my example for $425, and could not find any other Teletrade auctions in the last year. The PR scores look good.

 

DOLLARS:

 

IKE DOLLARS 1971-1978 CLAD

 

For MS, scores are good through MS-66. At MS-67, there are rarely offered, with only one piece offered on Teletrade in the last year and sold for $3,300 on 12/19/01. For PR, scores are high, with a PR-69UC recently selling for $30.

 

IKE DOLLARS 1971-1974 SILVER CLAD

 

For MS, the scores are too high across the board. A MS-67 is listed on E-Bay with a BIN price of $40 and a MS-68 just sold for $100.

 

For PR, the scores are high as well, with a 1971-S recently selling for $66 in 69DCAM.

 

IKE 1976 BICENTENNIAL CLAD

 

Once again, MS scores look good up to that really rare MS-67 piece. A 76-P Type 2 sold on Teletrade on 12/5/01 for $3,100. PR's are just slightly high, with a PR-69UC piece selling for $130 recently.

 

IKES 1976 BICENTENNIAL SILVER

 

The MS scores look pretty good as do the PR scores.

 

SBAS

 

MS is a little high, with the 1999 examples in MS-67 selling as low as $25. The PR scores appear right on.

 

SACS

 

Scores look right on for MS and PR.

 

OK, that's the last of them for a long time, I promise. Thanks for your consideration guys.

 

 

 

 

[DWLange]

The 1982-D Washington Half Dollar has been rescored to reflect its rarity in high grades.

 

As an interesting aside, this issue was the only one in the modern commemorative series to be handled in the manner of normal coins. By that I mean that these pieces tumbled from the press into a tote bin, where they collided with other coins. Only after being conveyed to the packaging area were they then handled with special care. Of course, by that time, a fair number of marks had been racked up, accounting for the rarity of really clean examples.

 

Perhaps responding to complaints, the Mint revised its procedures for all subsequent commemoratives. Starting with the 1983 Olympic coins, all of these issues clearly have been struck two or more times and then removed from the press without coming into contact with other coins.

 

One more interesting note: When a friend of mine retired from his position as senior die-setter at the San Francisco Mint in 1987, he was permitted to give a few of us in the local numismatic community a behind-the-scenes tour of the facility. This was a rare privilege indeed, as the small size of the SFM precludes public tours of any kind. While in the basement melting room, I saw tote bins filled to the top with unsold 1982-S proof Washington Halves. These had been removed from their plastic capsules by running them through the upsetting mill, which compressed the capsules until they exploded into a spray of plastic shards. Obviously, protective wear was a necessity in this operation. These coins awaited melting, and it was a shock to see thousands of proofs all scuffed and nicked.

[Oldtrader3]

David: Problem is, that I do not believe that the mints (with these unsold Commems) know the actual net mintage sold. This creates an awkward situation with these coins because, although many Commems have high mintages, some don't and if coins went unsold, the Mint probably does not know what the net mintage sold is, (i.e. the 1976 Silver Commems: 4mm sold out of 11mm minted).

 

Do you feel that their numbers are accurate?

[DWLange]

The net mintages are probably accurate to the nearest ten-thousand pieces or so. This won't matter with coins such as the regular proof sets, which are sold in the millions, but it may have an impact on the availability of some of the MS commemoratives, particularly the unpopular designs that had poor sales.

 

While I'm concerned about these vague figures from a numismatic standpoint, it bothers me even more as a taxpayer. It seems to me that a Mint employee could embezzle thousands of coins without it being detected by the accountants, assuming that he or she could find a way to actually remove them from the premises.

 

This sloppy accounting of collector coins seems to date from the time that the Mint received an enterprise fund and began to operate more as a commercial venture than as a government agency. The annual mint director's reports from the past fifteen years read more like stockholders' reports.

[keithdagen]

I think that the final reported mintages are pretty solid. The Mint reports figures for coins produced, sold, and unsold. The "offical" number is the sold number, and the unsold figure includes returns for quality control and those that never made it out of the Mint. It may be that the government will take its time in actually melting the unsold or returned portion, and in earlier years, I know that the selling windows were more flexible. I think since the Commemorative Coin Reform Act, the accounting has been a lot stronger for these issues.

 

As to the change to an Enterprise Fund, if the Feds are anything like local governments, the only reason for a change is that it is easier to swipe money from the coffers of enterprise funds, regardless of profit motive.

[DWLange]

Type set scores have been revised for Kennedy Halves, Ike and Anthony Dollars.

[Oldtrader3]

Now the Franklin Halves need help. Sores for coins like the 1949-DFBL and 1950-DFBL are out of wack at 3 point apiece. These coins cost over $100 (the MS65FBL's are up in the thousands $).

[Oldtrader3]

Arch:

Is there any way to find out what the specific score changes or adjustments are in a set? I just lost 1775 points on my USA Type Set and I do not have any detail to tell me what changed. In the past they tagged the coin values that were adjusted. This time they did not do this.

 

I would like to have the opportunity to restructure my set to minimize the affect of the adjustment. Thanks,

[keithdagen]

CDR,

 

They made some adjustments on Kennedys, Ikes, SBA's, and Sac's at the time you lost points, if memory serves correctly.

[Architecht]

Hey CDR,

 

There is not an easy way to tag the individual coin changes as of right now. To my knowledge, this wasn't done in the past either. Changes are only shown this way:

 

1) On a per set basis, the # of points changed in a given day are displayed

 

2) On a per coin basis, you can see the date a coin was added to a set, and thus you can see when new submissions alter the score.

 

We can, at some point, look at ways to display the specifics of scores changes on a per coin basis. I don't think it's a change that's in the top ten or so right now.

 

Arch

[Oldtrader3]

Arch: In the last couple of adjustments, you put the date next to the coin that had been affected. That is all I am asking for. Thanks,

[keithdagen]

CDR,

 

Arch explained a few weeks back when I asked about the same thing -- the counters only tell us when we add or upgrade a coin, they can't tell us when scoring changes have been made.

 

And looking at your set, I can tell you that the PR-69UC Ikes and Kennedys were the cause of your point loss. Especially the non-1976 versions. These had been scored very high relatively to other comparably priced coins.

[Oldtrader3]

Thanks Keith. I could not remember the scores on the Ikes and therefore could not figure out where the point loss was coming from. Ain't old age hell. I will go back and review them now that I know where the problem was. I went through the quarters and halves in the last score adjustment and was able to offset the losses somewhat by substitution. I appreciate your help.

CDR

[coinman1794]

Why are the 2002-P Indiana and Mississippi State Quarters only worth 366 in MS68 when other 2002-P's are woth 673? They are all worth the same amount.

[braddick]

Please check the 2000-D Kennedy in MS67 (and, MS67*). This is really a tough coin in this grade, even though ALL the Mint State Kennedies around it are super easy.

 

They come spotted and marked up. GEMS are scarce, Superb GEMS are rare.

Even your own population reports and PCGS's confirm this.

I added a 2000-D NGC MS67*- A POP ONE coin to my Registry (none finer) and it only got 15 points- the standard amount for ANY MS67* Clad Kennedy.

Thanks!

[Oldtrader3]

You may want to check the Half-Eagle coins for 1900-S/O, the 1905-S and 1906-S. All of these coins sell for at least twice the other coins in the Short Set, plus the 1901-S/O is tagged as an 006 coin with a total population of 26 coins. The other two dates are scarce as well.

[DWLange]

Scores have been revised for the American Eagle gold coins. Most affected are the MS/PF-70 scores, which are quite a bit higher than before to reflect the greater rarity of these grades.