NGC vs. PCGS on crossovers

[Nutmeg Coin]

NGC announced a crossover option for PCGS coins recently: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2818&NGC-CrossOver-Special

 

PCGS announced a crossover special for the Long Beach show: http://www.pcgs.com/news/crossover-special-september-long-beach-expo

 

PCGS accepts coins in this special from NGC, ANACS and ICG and does not charge unless the coin crosses, except for a "handling" fee. Their usual crossover option involves full fees for every coin. NGC only accepts PCGS coins for crossover.

[jom]

PCGS did this before at the Long Beach show in February so it's nothing new on that front. I might do this with a Bust Quarter I've got in an old ANACS holder come to think of it....

 

jom

[BillJones]

Just one more way for PCGS to gobble up more of the U.S. coin grading market ...

 

I don't do cross overs. When I buy in PCGS and NGC holders stays in those holders. If I buy a coin in one of these other holders, which I have yet to do, I might consider a crack-out and re-submission. In order for that to happen, however, it would have to be on heck of a coin.

[coinman_23885]

Does PCGS offer this service at any other shows (preferably on the East Coast)? I have a few coins that I would like to cross.

[Coinbuf]

Does PCGS offer this service at any other shows (preferably on the East Coast)? I have a few coins that I would like to cross.

 

My suggestion would be to call their customer service to get an answer to your question. I don't really see this as a benefit to most collectors, I was at the previous show when this was offered but was told that I had missed the cutoff to submit. So unless you can attend the show on Wed or early Thurs it's likely you will be turned away as I was. I would say from the early cutoff last time this service is aimed at dealers and flippers that are at the show from the very beginning.

[BillJones]

Does PCGS offer this service at any other shows (preferably on the East Coast)? I have a few coins that I would like to cross.

 

My suggestion would be to call their customer service to get an answer to your question. I don't really see this as a benefit to most collectors, I was at the previous show when this was offered but was told that I had missed the cutoff to submit. So unless you can attend the show on Wed or early Thurs it's likely you will be turned away as I was. I would say from the early cutoff last time this service is aimed at dealers and flippers that are at the show from the very beginning.

 

I am surprised that they did not offer to take the coin for the cross over service and ship the to you. I would have declined that however because given the current postal and insurance rates, the shipping would eat you alive. I learned that the hard way when I had a coin re-holdered. It cost me over $40 to have the coin re-holdered and shipped back to me, and that was after I paid for less insurance than the amount I had paid for the coin. PCGS also has an $8 or $9 invoice transaction fee that is basically for nothing except their bottom line.

[Conder101]

I'm sure they would have. The TPG's may have special deals at the show, or same day deals, but they will accept any regular type submissions (and that would include cross-overs) and mail them back later. The only way you should be turned away would be late in the show after they are already packing up the coins they are shipping back to the home office

[Coinbuf]

Like you Bill I am not a kool-aid drinker and do not cross coins very often, but in this case I have one ANACS and two ICG holdered coins that I'd like to cross for my registry sets. I did in fact tell them I would be happy to pay the return shipping and pleaded them to take my order, the answer was no I was past the cutoff. I was the second person in line at the PCGS table Fri AM when the show opened, the girl behind the table said that they had stopped taking crossover submissions just after the noon hour the previous day.

 

Needless to say that I was less than satisfied with that experience as I had driven 7 hours to make that show. and I would tell them where they could shove that level of service. However I'm stuck because NGC does not accept any crossovers anymore other than PCGS holdered coins, thus PCGS is the only option I have to cross these coins.

[BROADSTRUCK]

Just one more way for PCGS to gobble up more of the U.S. coin grading market ...

 

I don't do cross overs. When I buy in PCGS and NGC holders stays in those holders. If I buy a coin in one of these other holders, which I have yet to do, I might consider a crack-out and re-submission. In order for that to happen, however, it would have to be on heck of a coin.

 

I fully agree with you as I'm too frugal to playing plastic musical chairs since it cuts into my coin buying budget. I have far more NGC slabs then PCGS with nothing CAC'd and I sleep fine each night. Even if a coin has upgrade potential if it's in older NGC non pronged holder I'd much rather keep it as is then crossing it into a PCGS new edge view. Honestly in this new grading era the few ANACS & ICG graded coins I own too might one day be worth more in their original holders?

[Nutmeg Coin]

PCGS' stated statistics on crossover success are around 37%:

 

 

"Crossovers - Last 30 days Crossovers - Last 12 months

Attempted Successful Success Rate Attempted Successful Success Rate

2,359 883 37.00 % 29,878 11,278 37.00 %"

http://www.pcgs.com/statistics/

 

I have not seen that NGC publishes similar statistics. If they get thousands of no cost crossovers in the three "acceptable" grading service holders, will that skew that 37%? Too bad the statistics are not more comprehensive broken down into categories and price levels.

[TonerGuy]

Ive crossed some toned coins that ended up with a * at NGC by chance.

 

I wish that NGC would take this into consideration in regards to crossing coins. They will not though.

 

I dont like the idea plastic musical chairs of crossing slabs but I think that a NGC * will bring more at auction than just a PCGS slab.

[brg5658]

NGC announced a crossover option for PCGS coins recently: http://www.ngccoin.com/news/viewarticle.aspx?IDArticle=2818&NGC-CrossOver-Special

 

PCGS announced a crossover special for the Long Beach show: http://www.pcgs.com/news/crossover-special-september-long-beach-expo

 

PCGS accepts coins in this special from NGC, ANACS and ICG and does not charge unless the coin crosses, except for a "handling" fee. Their usual crossover option involves full fees for every coin. NGC only accepts PCGS coins for crossover.

 

Is "recently" really a term we use for NGC's announcement from July 2012?

 

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In a related vein, in the past 2-3 years, PCGS has started to have quite a "business ethics" problem, in my opinion. When they introduced their recent grading fees schedule that said that any coin upgraded upon reconsideration, or simply crossed (even at same grade) upon crossover submission, will be charged a 1% final value of the coin "guarantee premium". So, it is to PCGS' benefit to upgrade and crossover coins to generate more grading fees.

 

Yes, that's correct, it's a fee on the "final value" of the coin after it gets a higher grade or crosses over -- not the difference in value of it's previous grade and the new grade for reconsideration. So, for a coin with a value of $3000 in PCGS MS65, and a value of $12000 PCGS MS66 -- if you submit it under reconsideration and it gets a bump to MS66 from MS65, they charge you $120. What's odd about this is that 1) they are charging you for what was their (inconsistent) grade opinion of MS65 to begin with, and 2) they are charging you based on the full end-value, not just the delta "gained" value at the new grade.

 

And, even worse, it is to their benefit to upgrade or crossover very high dollar coins -- as it would lead to an even higher percentage-based fee. Buy a $400,000 coin in an NGC holder, submit it to PCGS for "crossover" (which cannot be blinded because the coin is still in the NGC slab), and PCGS makes an easy $4,000 if it crosses to the same grade. That's one expensive change of clothes! This business practice is a textbook example of conflict-of-interest.

 

[jom]

This business practice is a textbook example of conflict-of-interest.

 

This very issue has been there as long as I can remember. Basically, there is NO incentive for the grading services to be CONSISTENT in the long-term. Never has...never will. If they were they'd be out of business eventually....

 

So what you state is true but it goes back far longer than recent FMV fees and the like.

 

jom

[brg5658]

This business practice is a textbook example of conflict-of-interest.

 

This very issue has been there as long as I can remember. Basically, there is NO incentive for the grading services to be CONSISTENT in the long-term. Never has...never will. If they were they'd be out of business eventually....

 

So what you state is true but it goes back far longer than recent FMV fees and the like.

 

jom

 

Which is exactly why I never send in coins for "reconsideration" or "crossover" -- those services may be a logical ones for dealers trying to milk every last cent out of a coin (particularly by gradeflation), but from a collector's standpoint, I couldn't give two spits if my coin is in an NGC vs. PCGS holder -- I bought the coin.

 

I guess what surprised me about PCGS FMV "guarantee fee" was how blatantly ballsy they are now willing to be. For Kool-aid drinkers, it seems sometimes that PCGS could charge almost anything and they would still fly to PCGS like a moth to flame. Eventually the "threshold of sanity" will be crossed, and the greed will sink the company.

[O mint bug]

PCGS is likely doing this as they are a publically traded company ( CLCT ) and they are not generating enough operating income to cover the dividend they pay. Several of the PCGS insiders have sold off a lot of their PCGS stock as in about two years PCGS will have to significantly reduce its dividend as it is paying the deficit portion out of cash on hand. You don't get a cash dividend yield of over 8% without a hook in the bait. Every collector I know buys the coin and not the holder. The best example of the is a 1855 O NGC double eagle sold for more than a 1855 O CAC. Both were AU 55. Thinking a coin is better because of the holder is a big mistake and can cost you if you don't look what is inside the holder. Every established collector that writes a good book on collecting will tell you the same thing. Both grading services have put the wrong grade on their bolder and the collector in my opinion should not bite on the buying a coin based on what any slab has on it. PCGS and NGC have done the collector a huge favor and I appreciate it but neither is perfect. NGC grades more old southern gold so they cannot be a second to PCGS player. I cannot comment on new coins or anything other than type one DEs. Once you get in the AU 55 range I feel there is no benefit to a cross. Below that level there might be a small premium for PCGS if any but I don't subscribe to the PCGS theory is better. Eye appeal is what I look for and any coin I suspect is cleaned weather or not it is noted on the slab is a pass.

[coinman_23885]

Yes, that's correct, it's a fee on the "final value" of the coin after it gets a higher grade or crosses over -- not the difference in value of it's previous grade and the new grade for reconsideration. So, for a coin with a value of $3000 in PCGS MS65, and a value of $12000 PCGS MS66 -- if you submit it under reconsideration and it gets a bump to MS66 from MS65, they charge you $120. What's odd about this is that 1) they are charging you for what was their (inconsistent) grade opinion of MS65 to begin with, and 2) they are charging you based on the full end-value, not just the delta "gained" value at the new grade.

 

And it is even more odd to me that they will use the PCGS Price Guide for the reconsideration/cross-over guarantee premium, but will not use it when deciding the FMV of the coin on a buyback under their guarantee (to my knowledge).