What is a counterfeit US coin?

[rrantique]

 

 

[Kurtdog]

Irvin, where can I get one of those contraptions?

[Coindude]

I believe they got that from the US Mint.

[rrantique]

Probably Bejing suburb.

[19Lyds]

Here's my proposed definition: A counterfeit is any [coin, medal, fantasy] that resembles a genuine mint product and does not bear the stamp "COPY".

Does this imply that if the word "COPY" is somewhere on the coin (big, small, obverse, reverse, edge) that it's NOT a counterfeit and could be spent accordingly?

[Conder101]

Just because it's not a counterfeit that doesn't mean it can be spent. A copy still isn't a genuine coin or legal tender.

[Kurtdog]

Here's my proposed definition: A counterfeit is any [coin, medal, fantasy] that resembles a genuine mint product and does not bear the stamp "COPY".

Does this imply that if the word "COPY" is somewhere on the coin (big, small, obverse, reverse, edge) that it's NOT a counterfeit and could be spent accordingly?

If it's prominent enough it should do the trick. Take the Omega $20 coin with the Omega letter half the size of the eagle's toenail, that kind of doesn't cut it.

[orifdoc]

If they look EXACTLY like legitimate legal coins (i.e. indistinguishable by any earthly means) and they are produced in large quantities, the numismatic value of said coin goes instantly and forever to zero.

 

I'm certain it's already happening, at least on a small scale.

[RWB]

Is there any consensus?

[RWB]

BTW - here are excerpts from the US Code relating to counterfiet coins.

 

Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 25.

§485. Coins or bars

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or

Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph-

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

§486. Uttering coins of gold, silver or other metal

Whoever, except as authorized by law, makes or utters or passes, or attempts to utter or pass, any coins of gold or silver or other metal, or alloys of metals, intended for use as current money, whether in the resemblance of coins of the United States or of foreign countries, or of original design, shall be fined under this title 1 or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

 

§487. Making or possessing counterfeit dies for coins

Whoever, without lawful authority, makes any die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, either of steel or plaster, or any other substance, in likeness or similitude, as to the design or the inscription thereon, of any die, hub, or mold designated for the coining or making of any of the genuine gold, silver, nickel, bronze, copper, or other coins coined at the mints of the United States; or

Whoever, without lawful authority, possesses any such die, hub, or mold, or any part thereof, or permits the same to be used for or in aid of the counterfeiting of any such coins of the United States-

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

§489. Making or possessing likeness of coins

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title.

 

[RWB]

Also note under Title 15 relating to Commerce and Trade.

 

US Code Title 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE

CHAPTER 48-HOBBY PROTECTION

 

§2101. Marking requirements

(B) COINS AND OTHER NUMISMATIC ITEMS

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

§2106. Definitions

(3) The term “original numismatic item” means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

(4) The term “imitation numismatic item” means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.

 

[19Lyds]

Also note under Title 15 relating to Commerce and Trade.

 

US Code Title 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE

CHAPTER 48-HOBBY PROTECTION

 

§2101. Marking requirements

(B) COINS AND OTHER NUMISMATIC ITEMS

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

§2106. Definitions

(3) The term “original numismatic item” means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

(4) The term “imitation numismatic item” means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.

I do not see any prescribed penalties under the above FTC document.

 

Exactly what laws are broken other than just stating that the act is "unlawful"?

 

Other than shutting one's business down, what legal authority does the Federal Trade Commission actually have? Is it merely inter - state?

 

Keep in mind that I'm not trying to be snippet, just asking obvious questions since the above is quoted with some frequency yet we never "hear" of the FTC doing anything. Numismatic or not.

[RWB]

I was just wondering about members' definitions of "counterfeit coin."

 

(FTC can issue fines, desist orders, order corrections for compliance, etc. Treasury might deal with actual counterfeiting activities through the Secret Service. Justice Dept does criminal and civil prosecution....)

 

[James_OldeTowne]

I think there are counterfeits AND copies, and some copies are illegal, as are all counterfeits. Legal copies would say "copy" on them.

 

Does counterfeit = illegal copy? In the eyes of the law, Yes.

 

For me, if a coin looks like something that fell off U.S. dies through the mint's intent, then it is NOT a counterfeit, while anything else that looks like a U.S. coin is either a copy or a counterfeit.

[Afterword]

"An increasing number of fake US coins are appearing in the hobby market. All of them look exactly like legal tender US coins.

 

What, then, constitutes a counterfeit?"

 

 

 

 

No item is a counterfeit, whether it be a coin or a Gucci purse. A counterfeiter creates a copy with the intention of defrauding. The term counterfeit references a copy created or used to defraud. It defines the act of defrauding, rather than the item copied.

 

This is also true for the term fake.

[19Lyds]

My definition of a counterfeit US coin is any coin which is minted with the intention of using it to purchase goods or services in regular commerce thereby denying the merchant of their due compensation.

 

Counterfeit US Coins are no different the counterfeit US Bills.

 

Now, a big problem exists between the legal definition of a counterfeit US Coin and a coin created to deceive collectors.

 

One is counterfeit legal tender while the other is an unmarked copy of a highly collectible coin which has higher than average value.

 

Henning nickels were created as counterfeit US legal tender. Counterfeit 1971-S Eisenhower dollars, on the other hand, were created with a dual purpose. Deceiving merchants as legal tender and deceiving collectors s9ince it is made of pot metal, not silver.

 

For coin collectors, I think the term "counterfeit" should be dropped in lieu of the term "fake" since fake collectible US coins are intended to fool collectors, not merchants. Unless they are pawn shops or B&M Coin Dealers.

[coinman_23885]

An increasing number of fake US coins are appearing in the hobby market. All of them look exactly like legal tender US coins.

 

What, then, constitutes a counterfeit?

 

Here is how I would define it for U.S. material:

 

Any item which purports to be a genuine U.S. coin or piece of currency, usually but not always to pass into circulation; OR

 

Any item that looks similar in design or inscription as compared to a genuine coin or currency such that an ordinary person, with ordinary knowledge of money, could believe that item issued was in fact or could have been issued by the federal government.

[coinman_23885]

My definition of a counterfeit US coin is any coin which is minted with the intention of using it to purchase goods or services in regular commerce thereby denying the merchant of their due compensation.

 

Counterfeoit US Coins are no doifferent the counterfeit US Bills.

 

Now, a big problem exists between the legal definition of a counterfeit US Coin and a coin created to deceive collectors.

 

One is counterfeit legal tender while the other is an unmarked copy of a highly collectible coin which has higher than average value...

 

For coin collectors, I think the term "counterfeit" should be dropped in lieu of the term "fake" since fake collectible US coins are intended to fool collectors, not merchants. Unless they are pawn shops or B&M Coin Dealers.

 

The law makes no such distinction, so with all due respect, it is unclear to me what this "big problem" that purportedly exists with the legal definition of a counterfeit coin meant for circulation and one meant to deceive collectors. The controlling statute prohibits all of them and includes any other term one might want to use such as "fakes," copies or imitation pieces not authorized by the Hobby Protection Act, counterfeits, etc. The controlling statute is 18 U.S.C. 485:

 

Whoever falsely makes, forges, or counterfeits any coin or bar in resemblance or similitude of any coin of a denomination higher than 5 cents or any gold or silver bar coined or stamped at any mint or assay office of the United States, or in resemblance or similitude of any foreign gold or silver coin current in the United States or in actual use and circulation as money within the United States; or

 

Whoever passes, utters, publishes, sells, possesses, or brings into the United States any false, forged, or counterfeit coin or bar, knowing the same to be false, forged, or counterfeit, with intent to defraud any body politic or corporate, or any person, or attempts the commission of any offense described in this paragraph—

Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than fifteen years, or both.

 

The first paragraph clearly includes, "fakes," "counterfeits," and similar pieces. This includes numismatic items. The first paragraph then concludes with the all important "OR" operator meaning that only one of the conditions (either the first or second paragraph need to be present to violate the statute). The second paragraph then outlines counterfeiting with the intent to pass, utter, circulate, etc.

 

18 U.S.C. 490 provides almost identical language for minor coins (such as cents, etc.).

 

The same actions are also seemingly barred by 18 U.S.C. 489 which imposes a fine on top of the criminal sanctions in section 485:

 

Whoever, within the United States, makes or brings therein from any foreign country, or possesses with intent to sell, give away, or in any other manner uses the same, except under authority of the Secretary of the Treasury or other proper officer of the United States, any token, disk, or device in the likeness or similitude as to design, color, or the inscription thereon of any of the coins of the United States or of any foreign country issued as money, either under the authority of the United States or under the authority of any foreign government shall be fined under this title. (emphasis added)

 

[coinman_23885]

My definition, a coin that is produced or altered for the soul purpose or the intent of deceiving others.

How would it be determined whether the person who produced or altered the item had intent to deceive? Or for that matter, (in many cases) who the person was? I don't think intent would make a useful requirement.

It's the mens rea of these crimes, Mark. You ought to know that. It can be inferred from the circumstances.

 

Not all crimes require a mens rea element. There are crimes for which intent is not an element.

 

The question was asked because there was once a clearly understood meaning for "counterfeit coin." (I've never heard of anyone calling the Omega pieces anything except counterfeit; same for the "Henning" nickels, etc., etc.)

(Omega pieces were not intended to circulate - made only for sale at a profit to collectors. Henning made his fakes, as did others, to pass for real coins.)

I believe they got that from the US Mint.

 

You mean those aren't just harmless "fantasy" strikes?

[coinman_23885]

Also note under Title 15 relating to Commerce and Trade.

 

US Code Title 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE

CHAPTER 48-HOBBY PROTECTION

 

§2101. Marking requirements

(B) COINS AND OTHER NUMISMATIC ITEMS

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

§2106. Definitions

(3) The term “original numismatic item” means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

(4) The term “imitation numismatic item” means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.

 

You forgot the federal administrative regulations that also go along and expand the definition. These too have the binding effect of law. Here are excerpts from 16 CFR 304.1

 

(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government.

(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

 

Notice also how the CFR excepts government restrikes, but doesn't private restrikes (because that also appears to be an issue here for some in trying to make relevant distinctions germane to this subject matter).

[Kurtdog]

My definition, a coin that is produced or altered for the soul purpose or the intent of deceiving others.

How would it be determined whether the person who produced or altered the item had intent to deceive? Or for that matter, (in many cases) who the person was? I don't think intent would make a useful requirement.

It's the mens rea of these crimes, Mark. You ought to know that. It can be inferred from the circumstances.

Not all crimes require a mens rea element. There are crimes for which intent is not an element.

Kenny, pay attention. Mark was inquiring about how the mens rea is proved in these crimes. Read it, again. He wasn't inquiring about a strict liability crime in which the actus reas is the only element.

[Kurtdog]

Also note under Title 15 relating to Commerce and Trade.

 

US Code Title 15 - COMMERCE AND TRADE

CHAPTER 48-HOBBY PROTECTION

 

§2101. Marking requirements

(B) COINS AND OTHER NUMISMATIC ITEMS

The manufacture in the United States, or the importation into the United States, for introduction into or distribution in commerce of any imitation numismatic item which is not plainly and permanently marked “copy”, is unlawful and is an unfair or deceptive act or practice in commerce under the Federal Trade Commission Act [15 U.S.C. 41 et seq.].

 

§2106. Definitions

(3) The term “original numismatic item” means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

(4) The term “imitation numismatic item” means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item.

 

You forgot the federal administrative regulations that also go along and expand the definition. These too have the binding effect of law. Here are excerpts from 16 CFR 304.1

 

(d) Imitation numismatic item means an item which purports to be, but in fact is not, an original numismatic item or which is a reproduction, copy, or counterfeit of an original numismatic item. Such term includes an original numismatic item which has been altered or modified in such a manner that it could reasonably purport to be an original numismatic item other than the one which was altered or modified. The term shall not include any re-issue or re-strike of any original numismatic item by the United States or any foreign government.

(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals.

Notice also how the CFR excepts government restrikes, but doesn't private restrikes (because that also appears to be an issue here for some in trying to make relevant distinctions germane to this subject matter).

Kenny, what are you trying to do, fulfill a pro bono requirement? I'll bet you got at least a couple hours invested in this thread, .

[Afterword]

"(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals."

 

 

 

Was the original 1964 D Peace dollar ever "used in exchange"?

[coinman_23885]

"(f) Original numismatic item means anything which has been a part of a coinage or issue which has been used in exchange or has been used to commemorate a person, object, place, or event. Such term includes coins, tokens, paper money, and commemorative medals."

 

Was the original 1964 D Peace dollar ever "used in exchange"?

 

The 1964-D Peace Dollar was "part of a coinage" (i.e. the Peace Dollar series) and the Peace Dollar design did circulate, yes. And please let's not rehash the Dan Carr pieces here. There is a very recent thread consisting of 37 pages (I believe) addressing his work specifically. Not only have we beaten a dead horse, we have beaten it into a bloody pulp (thanks in part to scores of my own posts). I feel very strongly about the issue and am trying so hard to bite my tongue.... If this thread diverts to Carr, I can't promise that this won't turn into another 30+ page mega thread.

 

Kenny, pay attention. Mark was inquiring about how the mens rea is proved in these crimes. Read it, again. He wasn't inquiring about a strict liability crime in which the actus reas is the only element.

 

I was inferring that you meant or were implying something else; sorry.

[Kurtdog]

Kenny, pay attention. Mark was inquiring about how the mens rea is proved in these crimes. Read it, again. He wasn't inquiring about a strict liability crime in which the actus reas is the only element.

I was inferring that you meant or were implying something else; sorry.

Thanks, buddy.

[Afterword]

"The 1964-D Peace Dollar was "part of a coinage" (i.e. the Peace Dollar series) and the Peace Dollar design did circulate, yes."

 

 

 

 

My mistake - I thought they were just trial pieces and had never really been sanctioned (or had subsequently been repealed) as legal tender or part of the Peace dollar series.

 

I agree entirely about that other thread and not turning this one into the same kind of repetitious monster. We will all have to collectively bite our tongues to avoid such a repeat fiasco.

 

[dcarr]

Were the original 1964-D Peace Silver Dollars ever granted legal tender status (legally monetized) prior to their destruction ?

 

[coinman_23885]

Were the original 1964-D Peace Silver Dollars ever granted legal tender status (legally monetized) prior to their destruction ?

 

It doesn't matter. The coins resemble the inscriptions or design of a circulating U.S. coin design and unless they are marked appropriately under the HPA, then 18 U.S.C. 485 bars them and the statute defines the prohibited classes in the way that I have articulated them here. There is no conflict as applied to you between the criminal statutes and the HPA, and the plain meaning of the statutes in Chapter 25 of Title 18 preclude your argument. You are not allowed to read provisions into statutes that are not there. It is a universal principle of statutory interpretation that the plain meaning controls, not some imagined, contrived, or strained interpretation crafted to meet the desires of those the statute could be applied against. And at best, your implied argument in the last post would suggest that the HPA would not apply to you. If this is the case, then that is actually problematic for you as the HPA sets forth the only legal exceptions where the coins could be struck without violating the statutes in Title 18 referenced above. Pick your poison.

 

In the 37 page mega thread where we discussed this ad nauseam, your only defense to 18 U.S.C. 485 was a manufactured conflict, allegedly with the HPA. Even assuming arguendo that a conflict would exist, it would only be for coins marked as copies, not your coins, and therefore you have not articulated any legal justification (in my opinion) of why your pieces are not prohibited by the statutes cited in Chapter 25 of Title 18.

 

I think it is time that I step away from this topic. All views and interpretations of the law are matter of opinion; the statutes speak for themselves.

[dcarr]

Were the original 1964-D Peace Silver Dollars ever granted legal tender status (legally monetized) prior to their destruction ?

 

It doesn't matter. The coins resemble the inscriptions or design of a circulating U.S. coin design and unless they are marked appropriately under the HPA, then 18 U.S.C. 485 bars them and the statute defines the prohibited classes in the way that I have articulated them here. There is no conflict as applied to you between the criminal statutes and the HPA, and the plain meaning of the statutes in Chapter 25 of Title 18 preclude your argument. You are not allowed to read provisions into statutes that are not there. It is a universal principle of statutory interpretation that the plain meaning controls, not some imagined, contrived, or strained interpretation crafted to meet the desires of those the statute could be applied against. And at best, your implied argument in the last post would suggest that the HPA would not apply to you. If this is the case, then that is actually problematic for you as the HPA sets forth the only legal exceptions where the coins could be struck without violating the statutes in Title 18 referenced above. Pick your poison.

 

In the 37 page mega thread where we discussed this ad nauseam, your only defense to 18 U.S.C. 485 was a manufactured conflict, allegedly with the HPA. Even assuming arguendo that a conflict would exist, it would only be for coins marked as copies, not your coins, and therefore you have not articulated any legal justification (in my opinion) of why your pieces are not prohibited by the statutes cited in Chapter 25 of Title 18.

 

I think it is time that I step away from this topic. All views and interpretations of the law are matter of opinion; the statutes speak for themselves.

 

As collectors, we often tell people that only items originally issued as legal tender are "coins". Everything else is "tokens" or "medals". So it does matter. A lot, I think.

 

If no 1964-D Peace Dollars were ever legal tender, then they aren't "part of a coinage".

 

18 USC 485 doesn't apply to altered coins such as carved "hobo" nickels that weren't created for fraudulent purposes. 18 USC 485 clearly doesn't apply to genuine coins which have been altered into novelty items for collectors and sold as such.

 

Your opinions are noted. Can you cite any case where, in the opinion of a judge or jury, an over-struck novelty coin, sold as such, was ruled to be a violation ?

 

[coinman_23885]

As collectors, we often tell people that only items originally issued as legal tender are "coins". Everything else is "tokens" or "medals". So it does matter. A lot, I think.

 

Under the HPA, it includes tokens and medals.

 

If no 1964-D Peace Dollars were ever legal tender, then they aren't "part of a coinage".

 

They were in fact authorized and struck for use in commerce, but were subsequently abandoned. Whether they exist currently doesn't matter under the statutes.

 

18 USC 485 doesn't apply to altered coins such as carved "hobo" nickels that weren't created for fraudulent purposes. 18 USC 485 clearly doesn't apply to genuine coins which have been altered into novelty items for collectors and sold as such.

 

There is a huge difference there. A hobo nickel isn't being made to resemble another U.S. coin closely, but is being defaced to look less like circulating currency - that's a huge difference. Your process goes well beyond and also completely defaces the original surface of the coin and overstrikes them with designs imparted by your own dies onto the planchet. This overstriking obliterates the details originally there.

 

Your opinions are noted. Can you cite any case where, in the opinion of a judge or jury, an over-struck novelty coin, sold as such, was ruled to be a violation ?

 

Anti-counterfeiting prosecutions of numismatic items are very rare, and I have never seen someone as brazen as to create items like this and then chronicle the whole thing on the internet. So no, I don't have actual cases that mirror this exact fact pattern - you are unique in this respect (and fortunately so in my opinion).