1859-S Seated Half Dollar

[Mark T]

That makes sense to me. And I didn't go into everything with GSC, I only said I wanted a refund and that I had been made aware that this very same coin had sold at a HA in April 2013 as an NGC Au Details Improperly Cleaned coin. I also provided them with the link to the webpage. They offered me free return shipping so this has been a great learning experience, invaluable really... my next purchase will be better informed. But really, where and how do you buy coins (or can you) without paying what they are worth plus a fee?

 

You can say whatever you want to them in private and yes I would have told them exactly what you did, well maybe I would not have been as nice. What you put in print needs to have a little restraint .

My guess is they denied that the Heritage coin was the same coin they sold you .

[Nokesville-migration]

After reflecting about this some more, I think it is clearly criminal that a reputed coin dealer would attempt to sell this coin as something that it wasn't knowing full well (I know this is considered speculation but is it really?) the true value of the coin. Leave aside the fact that someone removed this coin from the slab, you don't even have to assign blame for that to GSC, but what you can't deny is that they assigned this coin a grade of BU when everyone that posted could clearly see that this coin was less than that, and from pictures no less. I can only imagine the hundreds if not thousands of naive buyers that have been taken because of these types of practices. The more I think about it the angrier I get. I don't think that bad feedback is sufficient... Any suggestions would be welcomed. Oh, and of course, there response:

 

Thanks for your communication on this. It does appear to have similar markings as the one you purchased. I assure you that we did not purchase this coin from Heritage back in April of 2013, have any knowledge of this assessment, nor did we purchase the coin in the NGC holder. We purchased this as a raw coin and sold it as such with our opinion. As mentioned, we would never intentionally misrepresent a coin with our stated opinion of the grade or condition. We fully acknowledge that we might miss the mark despite our best efforts which is why we will always work with our customers and honor a full refund should there be any reservations.

 

Once we receive the coin back we will process the refund back through the original PayPal transaction. The reimbursement for your return shipping cost can either be sent to your PayPal account by using the PayPal “Send Money” tab or we can mail you a check. We are happy to which ever you prefer. Again, my sincere apologies this did not work for your collection. Please don’t hesitate to let me know if you have any questions or need anything else. We want to make sure we get this 100% resolved for you to maintain a positive and professional experience at the end of the day. We greatly appreciate your business, communication, and professionalism in working with us. Our toll free number is 1-888-409-8344 if you’d like to discuss anything further. I hope all else is well and that you have a great weekend! Let me know if you prefer to be reimbursed for the return shipping cost through PayPal or to mail you a check.

[FishyOne]

As mentioned above by SuperDave, there is no proof that GSC bought the coin from Heritage or ever possessed it while in the NGC holder. Whether you believe they did or not really doesn't matter. I would accept the full refund (including return shipping) and wash my hands of GSC.

 

Sadly, this issue happens a lot and eBay is a large venue where things like this can be "caught" electronically. Coin collecting has been going on for centuries and TPG has been around for 30 years. It's still caveat emptor. NGC opined it was AU and cleaned. I'll say this from the images: 1) It has very close to MS details and 2) The cleaning doesn't appear to harsh.

 

Good luck and glad we could help you save some money.

[Nokesville-migration]

So this thread has gone from vilification to defense to acceptance and condoning because "buyer beware." It almost sounds like you now are suggesting that I get it regraded or just keep the thing because it probably isn't a cleaned coin and it is probably uncirculated. None of this makes any sense to me... I guess I am just a newbie rube.

[wdrob]

Unbelievable! I really didn't want to believe the conspiracy theory but here it is... Really unbelieveable... wow what a crooked company... well, I will not leave postive feedback and explain everything that transpired (as character limit will allow).

 

So here is a general question. If no one sells coins for less than they are worth, how does anyone make any money? Do you make up for it with "volume"?

 

Fishy saved you some money but the crooked practices on eBay are not limited to that company alone. It is actually rampant. There are coins that sell on eBay that are not in respected TPG holders which are actually problem free, but they are few and far between.

 

You will always be taking a huge gamble if you choose to try and make a big score buying raw coins, from nothing more than a photograph (which can be easily manipulated), over the largest network of crooks and otherwise dishonest people; eBay.

 

There are not many people that can jump right into the field of numismatics and 'make money'. Actually there are very few that do not loose money. They are in it because they enjoy collecting the coins and the history associated with them.

 

If you have re entered the hobby to make money then you have a long road ahead of you in my opinion. The major dealers make money buy buying coins that are very strong for their assigned grade, are undergraded, and/or they purchase complete collections for 60% to 70% of realized prices; not the price NGC or PCGS says. They are then able to sit on them for a while until they sell. When they do sell they make 30% or 40% (chances are my figures are not nearly accurate since I am not a dealer).

[physics-fan3.14]

So this thread has gone from vilification to defense to acceptance and condoning because "buyer beware." It almost sounds like you now are suggesting that I get it regraded or just keep the thing because it probably isn't a cleaned coin and it is probably uncirculated. None of this makes any sense to me... I guess I am just a newbie rube.

 

No. Return it. That much is clear.

 

The other discussions about the sellers and lessons learned are additional - but the coin needs to go back.

[FishyOne]

So this thread has gone from vilification to defense to acceptance and condoning because "buyer beware." It almost sounds like you now are suggesting that I get it regraded or just keep the thing because it probably isn't a cleaned coin and it is probably uncirculated. None of this makes any sense to me... I guess I am just a newbie rube.

 

Nope. Return the coin. Harsh cleaning and Improper Cleaning are both bad but different. The patina can be stripped from a coin chemically and leave no hairlines or other signs of a harsh cleaning. Also, the remaining detail on the coin is close to MS and if a numeric grade were assigned a la ANACS then AU55 or AU58 Details would be in order. Either way it's not worth half of what you paid though.

[jpcienkus]

This was a very entertaining thread.

 

Nokesville, this is for you as a fellow new collector:

 

Upon attending my first coin show last year, I got some really sage advice from one of the dealers. I'm going to paraphrase:

 

"Every coin worth slabbing has already been slabbed!"

 

What I took from that is this:

 

Trying to find that one raw coin that has for some reason, been undervalued and missed by the coin collecting community is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Of course, there are some exceptions to this, but they are clearly exceptions. BTW, I bought a cleaned coin from this dealer on purpose(he told me it was cleaned) so that I could have an example to study.

 

Think of it this way, the 2 major TPG's have been in business for ~30 years. Once dealers and collectors realized that having their coins graded would improve the price and marketability of them, the vast majority of them were sent it to be graded. There are very few coins, as a percentage, in the market place in a "raw" state that have not been to a TPG. Until you become more experienced, I would only purchase graded coins in PCGS and NGC plastic. There's still a lot to learn even buying graded coins because it a subjective process.

 

When I first started collecting, I wanted to find that hidden gem too. I bought some raw coins that I thought could grade. I bought them via pictures only. Two of them graded the way I thought they would. One of them graded MS62 (super slider, but still not underwater $$) and 2 graded as improperly cleaned. Thankfully, the 2 cleaned coins did not cost me a lot, but did educate me.

 

There are a lot of experienced collectors on this sight who have both the connections and knowledge to buy raw coins and have them grade, but until you've spent more time in the hobby, I would suggest only buying graded coins. I hope that helps a little.

[Mark T]

This was a very entertaining thread.

 

Nokesville, this is for you as a fellow new collector:

 

Upon attending my first coin show last year, I got some really sage advice from one of the dealers. I'm going to paraphrase:

 

"Every coin worth slabbing has already been slabbed!"

 

What I took from that is this:

 

Trying to find that one raw coin that has for some reason, been undervalued and missed by the coin collecting community is like looking for a needle in a haystack. Of course, there are some exceptions to this, but they are clearly exceptions. BTW, I bought a cleaned coin from this dealer on purpose(he told me it was cleaned) so that I could have an example to study.

 

Think of it this way, the 2 major TPG's have been in business for ~30 years. Once dealers and collectors realized that having their coins graded would improve the price and marketability of them, the vast majority of them were sent it to be graded. There are very few coins, as a percentage, in the market place in a "raw" state that have not been to a TPG. Until you become more experienced, I would only purchase graded coins in PCGS and NGC plastic. There's still a lot to learn even buying graded coins because it a subjective process.

 

When I first started collecting, I wanted to find that hidden gem too. I bought some raw coins that I thought could grade. I bought them via pictures only. Two of them graded the way I thought they would. One of them graded MS62 (super slider, but still not underwater $$) and 2 graded as improperly cleaned. Thankfully, the 2 cleaned coins did not cost me a lot, but did educate me.

 

There are a lot of experienced collectors on this sight who have both the connections and knowledge to buy raw coins and have them grade, but until you've spent more time in the hobby, I would suggest only buying graded coins. I hope that helps a little.

 

 

There are always exceptions – I would like to show you the one time I hit the jackpot with a raw coin. I purchased this from a reputable EBAY dealer 5 years ago who only sold raw gold Indians for $450. PCGS gave is the MS 64 and CAC certified it after. I was very lucky as all the other raw coins I purchased on Ebay were either cleaned or over graded. I only purchased raw coins of a few occasions and quickly stopped once I realized how bad EBAy was.

I should note that when I was buying Raw I had just come back into the hobby from a very long break so I really was “green” as to buying coins on EBAY.

 

 

 

 

[jpcienkus]

Hi Mark,

 

Nice find. That's one of my favorite designs. I just picked up a 1914-D, but AU58.

 

I think I did mention something about exceptions, but I wanted to make sure to say those exceptions come with experience.

 

I thought I hit nicely on my super slider. I still don't see the rub!!

 

Congrats on your exception. It is clearly a beauty!

 

Joe

[Mark T]

Hi Mark,

 

Nice find. That's one of my favorite designs. I just picked up a 1914-D, but AU58.

 

I think I did mention something about exceptions, but I wanted to make sure to say those exceptions come with experience.

 

I thought I hit nicely on my super slider. I still don't see the rub!!

 

Congrats on your exception. It is clearly a beauty!

 

Joe

 

 

 

My purchase was a total exception to the rule. Like I said I was really lucky - I guess I hit the lottery on that coin ! Unless someone is buying really cheap stuff I would never recommend that anyone purchase Raw from EBAY .

[jpcienkus]

Hi Mark,

 

Nice find. That's one of my favorite designs. I just picked up a 1914-D, but AU58.

 

I think I did mention something about exceptions, but I wanted to make sure to say those exceptions come with experience.

 

I thought I hit nicely on my super slider. I still don't see the rub!!

 

Congrats on your exception. It is clearly a beauty!

 

Joe

 

My purchase was a total exception to the rule. Like I said I was really lucky - I guess I hit the lottery on that coin ! Unless someone is buying really cheap stuff I would never recommend that anyone purchase Raw from EBAY .

 

Luck is where experience meets hard work! Well done.

 

I agree about raw coins on eBay. I would only buy a raw coin sight unseen from someone I trust or if I had it in-hand.