1859-S Seated Half Dollar

[wdrob]

 

Well, I received the coin and I think I took some good pictures. I would certainly like to hear what everyone has to say about these pictures.

 

Based, in particular, on what looks like light rub on Liberty's legs, my guess is AU.

 

I'm not sure why you posted here - the response has been quite uniform, yet it doesn't seem to have made any difference to you. I'm done. Best of luck to you.

 

 

Oh Good Grief!

 

Nokesville ... Does your coin have good luster to go along with the good definition?

 

If you do not bow to the Gods of grading .... the be all to end all.... then this is what you will encounter. I summed it up when I stated that your coin will NEVER be met with any warm reception simply because it is a GSC purchase.

 

I followed their advice once on a GSC purchase. I was told that the coin had scratches in front of the face that indicated clearly that it had been cleaned. "Run' Return it. Quickly!" was the mantra then, just as now. I did just as they said. Later I saw that coin in a PR64 holder. The scratches in front of the face were in fact put there during the minting process.

 

Another time on here I was told "I had sour grapes" on another persons coin since my coin was junk. Once again I was told to "Run. Return them. Run for the hills!" .... My junk coin that I bought for $38.00 was graded MS65 and brought me $250.00 .... The small gold dollar I was told to run from was graded an AU58 .... once again I made some money on that purchase.

 

Yet for some reason .... it was eerily quiet when I revealed the grades. Not one single "Grading from pictures God" had one thing to say.

 

There has also been a time much recently when they were in fact right. What I thought to be a MS63 was judged to be a AU58 (although I still think that one was missed by the graders). However I will add that this coin was touted by John Franklin, someone who is held in high regard by some here as being a straight up guy, as a BU Full Head coin.

 

Did he lie? After all .... he did offer a no questions asked return policy. Add to that the fact that no one sells coins raw unless their is a problem with them. John sells raw coins routinely. We have learned through this thread that this alone is a hallmark of the trash dealers such as GSC. Right?

 

It is your coin. Take what advice you want to from these folks. But in the end it is your money that will either be gained or lost. If you think it might grade problem free then submit it and stand by your decision. If it is as they say, they will have plenty to say and you can eat (and hopefully enjoy) crow. If, by chance that coin comes back as a major surprise and grades MS .... well they will once again be eerily silent.

 

btw; Mark must have really good eyesight since I can not see the rub on the leg.

[Nokesville-migration]

OMG... thank-you. I was really trying to turn the other cheek and not respond to someone that was being so condescending. You just renewed my quickly waning faith in this forum and website. Im going to get the coin graded and ask for an extended return so that if it doesn't meet my expectation than I can return it and only be out the grading and shipping costs. That will be worth the learning experience, at least in my novice opinion...

[Mark T]

Looks at best Au 58 to me . Also maybe it’s the photo but the coin is dull , lacks luster. This is not an MS coin. On the reverse what is going on to the left of the S ??

I would have to see it in hand to determine if in fact it was cleaned.

 

 

[Mark T]

Well, I received the coin and I think I took some good pictures. I would certainly like to hear what everyone has to say about these pictures.

 

Based, in particular, on what looks like light rub on Liberty's legs, my guess is AU.

 

I'm not sure why you posted here - the response has been quite uniform, yet it doesn't seem to have made any difference to you. I'm done. Best of luck to you.

 

 

Oh Good Grief!

 

Nokesville ... Does your coin have good luster to go along with the good definition?

 

If you do not bow to the Gods of grading .... the be all to end all.... then this is what you will encounter. I summed it up when I stated that your coin will NEVER be met with any warm reception simply because it is a GSC purchase.

 

I followed their advice once on a GSC purchase. I was told that the coin had scratches in front of the face that indicated clearly that it had been cleaned. "Run' Return it. Quickly!" was the mantra then, just as now. I did just as they said. Later I saw that coin in a PR64 holder. The scratches in front of the face were in fact put there during the minting process.

 

Another time on here I was told "I had sour grapes" on another persons coin since my coin was junk. Once again I was told to "Run. Return them. Run for the hills!" .... My junk coin that I bought for $38.00 was graded MS65 and brought me $250.00 .... The small gold dollar I was told to run from was graded an AU58 .... once again I made some money on that purchase.

 

Yet for some reason .... it was eerily quiet when I revealed the grades. Not one single "Grading from pictures God" had one thing to say.

 

There has also been a time much recently when they were in fact right. What I thought to be a MS63 was judged to be a AU58 (although I still think that one was missed by the graders). However I will add that this coin was touted by John Franklin, someone who is held in high regard by some here as being a straight up guy, as a BU Full Head coin.

 

Did he lie? After all .... he did offer a no questions asked return policy. Add to that the fact that no one sells coins raw unless their is a problem with them. John sells raw coins routinely. We have learned through this thread that this alone is a hallmark of the trash dealers such as GSC. Right?

 

It is your coin. Take what advice you want to from these folks. But in the end it is your money that will either be gained or lost. If you think it might grade problem free then submit it and stand by your decision. If it is as they say, they will have plenty to say and you can eat (and hopefully enjoy) crow. If, by chance that coin comes back as a major surprise and grades MS .... well they will once again be eerily silent.

 

btw; Mark must have really good eyesight since I can not see the rub on the leg.

 

I thought you never purchased anything from GSC , and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

Mark has great eyes – he was a NGC grader for many years so I think he would know how to spot rub even from a photo.

 

 

 

 

[wdrob]

I thought you never purchased anything from GSC , and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

Mark has great eyes – he was a NGC grader for many years so I think he would know how to spot rub even from a photo.

 

You might have some failing eyesight as well. Go back and read what I said. "I do not even buy coins from that company."

 

Present tense versus past tense. Present tense means that I do not currently buy coins from that company.

 

Past tense; this would mean that I have NEVER bought a coin from that company. example: "I have NEVER bought a coin from that company."

 

Got it?

 

A coin with scratches right in front of the face is not very difficult to later identify in an online auction just as it is not very difficult to see a coin that was clearly auctioned at another date and time being offered as a raw coin as routinely happens in the market place by shysters. But you know this ... You just were reaching....I know.

 

Mark Feld. A grader? No. Tell me it is not so!

 

Once again reaching I guess, however maybe there are folks that have posted on this board more than a week that are not familiar with that. It is doubtful someone could post here for a month and not be aware of that. Regardless I never stated Mark Feld did not see a rub on the knee. I stated that I DID NOT SEE the rub on the knee. Get your facts straight Mark.

 

 

 

 

[Nokesville-migration]

Im going to take the simple explanation and assume you mean the left side of the S when looking down at it and not "stage left." I don't see anything other than some toning/brown splotches. It doesn't seem to have much luster but some of the NGC auction examples weren't very lustrous (see MS-61 Jan 14, 2013 Auction Example or even the MS-63 Sept 2004 Example) and they were graded MS-60 to MS-63; once it hit MS-64 they got noticably better. At least looking at the pictures, the luster seems like it would garner something greater than AU quality, if that were the lone factor for its grade. I am concerned that their is rim wear, the "denticles" don't appear as rounded as they do in the MS-63 example above but that may be an artifact of how the picture was taken.

[Mark T]

I thought you never purchased anything from GSC , and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

Mark has great eyes – he was a NGC grader for many years so I think he would know how to spot rub even from a photo.

 

You might have some failing eyesight as well. Go back and read what I said. "I do not even buy coins from that company."

 

Present tense versus past tense. Present tense means that I do not currently buy coins from that company.

 

Past tense; this would mean that I have NEVER bought a coin from that company. example: "I have NEVER bought a coin from that company."

 

Got it?

 

 

 

 

A coin with scratches right in front of the face is not very difficult to later identify in an online auction just as it is not very difficult to see a coin that was clearly auctioned at another date and time being offered as a raw coin as routinely happens in the market place by shysters. But you know this ... You just were reaching....I know.

 

Mark Feld. A grader? No. Tell me it is not so!

 

Once again reaching I guess, however maybe there are folks that have posted on this board more than a week that are not familiar with that. It is doubtful someone could post here for a month and not be aware of that. Regardless I never stated Mark Feld did not see a rub on the knee. I stated that I DID NOT SEE the rub on the knee. Get your facts straight Mark.

 

 

 

Are you serious ?? You said “ I do not even buy coins from that company “ To me and anyone else that would mean you never purchased coins from them . Don’t give us that Past – Present tense nonsence.

You have no proof that the coin you sent back from GCS wound up in a PR 64 holder.

I have had enough of your BS – I am done with you .

 

 

 

 

[Nokesville-migration]

Which I would imagine has the potential to make it an AU coin? I honestly see no other evidence of wear other than some contact marks here and there but they are quite few in number. The worst example(s) are on the reverse rim above the first and second "T" in States. There also seem to be some other artifacts below the vertical lines on the rightside of the shield on the reverse. As for the halo's around the stars, I have seen that on other graded non-details coins so it seems that is a natural effect and not the result of cleaning. As for the cleaning, there does appear to be some accumulated dirt above the eagle's left wing, maybe that is residue that couldn't be easily removed, if it was in fact cleaned? I also read that the San Francisco Mint's of this series had weakly struck talons so that seems to make sense as some of the knuckles seem poorly defined after further inspection.

[Mark T]

Im going to take the simple explanation and assume you mean the left side of the S when looking down at it and not "stage left." I don't see anything other than some toning/brown splotches. It doesn't seem to have much luster but some of the NGC auction examples weren't very lustrous (see MS-61 Jan 14, 2013 Auction Example or even the MS-63 Sept 2004 Example) and they were graded MS-60 to MS-63; once it hit MS-64 they got noticably better. At least looking at the pictures, the luster seems like it would garner something greater than AU quality, if that were the lone factor for its grade. I am concerned that their is rim wear, the "denticles" don't appear as rounded as they do in the MS-63 example above but that may be an artifact of how the picture was taken.

 

You said you were going to send the coin in for grading. Considering that you don’t mind spending a few bucks I see no reason why you should not send it in .

This will be a good lesson for you, please post the grade when you have it back

 

[Nokesville-migration]

Yep, OK, thanks I really appreciate everyone's input! I will reveal the grade in about 2 weeks times, I think the early bird is 12 days or so. Thanks, again.

[FishyOne]

Your coin is Improperly Cleaned but could grade UNC Details. Worst case it's an AU Details - Tooled/Improperly Cleaned piece. This coin sold last spring for $329, I'd put yours in this value range ~$300.

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=1184%20&lotNo=8387&x=0&y=0#97029702762

 

SEE MY POST BELOW. COMPARE LINK TO OP'S PICS!

 

 

[FishyOne]

It's the same coin guys! Look! GSC bought the Heritage piece, cracked it and sold it as a raw BU+! Holy cow!

[dadams]

It's the same coin guys! Look! GSC bought the Heritage piece, cracked it and sold it as a raw BU+! Holy cow!

Looks like the same coin to me as well

[wdrob]

and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

 

Uh ... maybe the same way that they determined this piece to be the one in the Heritage auction and cracked out ...

 

Fishy I think you hit this one dead on. Good find.

 

 

[SuperDave]

I'm delurking long enough to offer a caution: Although these are clearly the same coin, there is no evidence whatsoever that GSC was the buyer of the Heritage coin. So be careful regarding what unsubstantiated claims you might throw around....the "obvious" conclusion doesn't matter in the absence of any proof.

[physics-fan3.14]

I'm delurking long enough to offer a caution: Although these are clearly the same coin, there is no evidence whatsoever that GSC was the buyer of the Heritage coin. So be careful regarding what unsubstantiated claims you might throw around....the "obvious" conclusion doesn't matter in the absence of any proof.

 

It's the same coin guys! Look! GSC bought the Heritage piece, cracked it and sold it as a raw BU+! Holy cow!

 

A lot of cleaned, damaged, low grade junk from Heritage and other sites show up in GSC's inventory, cracked, dipped, and marketed as high grade gems. This is a recurring pattern with them.

[wdrob]

Although these are clearly the same coin, there is no evidence whatsoever that GSC was the buyer of the Heritage coin.

 

I thought that same thing but at least the OP knows now the history of the coin and can save himself some grading fees - unless of course he wants to gamble there too.

 

 

[Tradedollarnut]

Waiting for wdrob to show up and take a bow.

[Mark T]

Good catch there Fishy !!

 

 

[wdrob]

Waiting for wdrob to show up and take a bow.

 

I is here sir. Right here. Shaking the bush boss! Shaking the bush!

 

 

 

 

[Mark T]

I'm delurking long enough to offer a caution: Although these are clearly the same coin, there is no evidence whatsoever that GSC was the buyer of the Heritage coin. So be careful regarding what unsubstantiated claims you might throw around....the "obvious" conclusion doesn't matter in the absence of any proof.

 

It's the same coin guys! Look! GSC bought the Heritage piece, cracked it and sold it as a raw BU+! Holy cow!

 

A lot of cleaned, damaged, low grade junk from Heritage and other sites show up in GSC's inventory, cracked, dipped, and marketed as high grade gems. This is a recurring pattern with them.

 

Jason as you know it’s a recurring pattern with a lot of EBAY sellers.

Well at least we know what the coin was Graded before it was cracked out !!

 

[Mark T]

and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

 

Uh ... maybe the same way that they determined this piece to be the one in the Heritage auction and cracked out ...

 

Fishy I think you hit this one dead on. Good find.

 

 

Rob would you like to retract what you said about GSC in your first post ?

[wdrob]

and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

 

Uh ... maybe the same way that they determined this piece to be the one in the Heritage auction and cracked out ...

 

Fishy I think you hit this one dead on. Good find.

 

 

Rob would you like to retract what you said about GSC in your first post ?

 

Why on earth would I want to do that.

 

Mark ... Are you (edited to add Half Illiterate) illiterate?

 

 

[Mark T]

and how would you know that GSC coin was the same coin in the PR 64 holder ??

 

Uh ... maybe the same way that they determined this piece to be the one in the Heritage auction and cracked out ...

 

Fishy I think you hit this one dead on. Good find.

 

 

Rob would you like to retract what you said about GSC in your first post ?

 

Why on earth would I want to do that.

 

Mark ... Are you (edited to add Half Illiterate) illiterate?

 

 

 

No maybe 1/4 illiterate but only when I first wake up in the Am .

 

[BillJones]

At least we now know that NGC has seen this coin, and they didn't like it the first time. I have seen things could change on a resubmission from personal experience, but I had the coins in hand at the time and knew I'd been hosed the first time. Short of any evidence to the contrary, I don't think that will happen in this case.

[physics-fan3.14]

Will you please elaborate on why you think it is an AU Details coin, based on the pictures provided? The ANA book that I have says that I need to look for wear on her head above the eye, on her right breast, and on her right knee. As for the reverse, I need to look at the eagle's neck. Based on the picture, both of these areas show no wear or at least I don't think they show any wear. The book doesn't make any mention about wear on the rim of the coin, which is somewhat evident on the reverse. I would be very interested in the specific details of why anyone thinks it would grade AU details; other than just making the statement. Also, it seems that the patina pattern/toning looks similar to legit uncleaned coin pictures that are in the ANA book and on the NGC auction website/database (whatever you call it). Can anyone provide more information about why they think it is cleaned? Thanks in advance.

 

In the picture, notice the slight discoloration on her breast and thigh, and on the eagle's neck and left (viewer's left, eagle's right) leg. This discoloration is a key sign that the coin has seen wear, even in deceptive pictures (although, not infallible).

 

I am glad to see that I graded it perfectly, even before seeing the HA/NGC pics and grade

[Nokesville-migration]

Unbelievable! I really didn't want to believe the conspiracy theory but here it is... If that isn't the same coin then at least it is similar enough for me not to spend the money on getting it graded. I took several minutes and compared the toning and even the little nick above the second T in "STATES" on the reverse. I am floored that you found this example, and not only that but you found it in time and posted it so that I didn't waste any money, I am very grateful. I am far too trusting when it comes to things like this, its not that I don't think it happens, its just that I don't think it will happen to me. Really unbelieveable... wow what a crooked company... well, I will not leave postive feedback and explain everything that transpired (as character limit will allow).

 

So here is a general question. If no one sells coins for less than they are worth, how does anyone make any money? Do you make up for it with "volume"?

[SuperDave]

I'm delurking long enough to offer a caution: Although these are clearly the same coin, there is no evidence whatsoever that GSC was the buyer of the Heritage coin. So be careful regarding what unsubstantiated claims you might throw around....the "obvious" conclusion doesn't matter in the absence of any proof.

 

It's the same coin guys! Look! GSC bought the Heritage piece, cracked it and sold it as a raw BU+! Holy cow!

 

A lot of cleaned, damaged, low grade junk from Heritage and other sites show up in GSC's inventory, cracked, dipped, and marketed as high grade gems. This is a recurring pattern with them.

 

This much is known, and deserves publicity. What isn't known, however, is the process of transition in between, and it's in that unsubstantiated transition being treated as fact where the seller in question can force the Admins here to poof the thread for reasons of prudence in the face of potential litigation.

 

And then there's no publicity.

 

This is an issue I face regularly as a Moderator at a forum similar to this, while at the same time being a fan of exposing crackout artists. Just trying to help the thread stay in a mode that allows it to keep its' legs.

[Mark T]

Be careful how you word the negative feedback in reference to the Heritage coin. The Heritage coin is obviously the same coin you purchased from GSC but as Super Dave posted you don’t have proof that they purchased it and cracked it out. Regardless I think most people here would believe that was exactly what they did. You can make reference to the Heritage coin, however I would keep it simple and just say the coin was a cleaned Au .

[Nokesville-migration]

That makes sense to me. And I didn't go into everything with GSC, I only said I wanted a refund and that I had been made aware that this very same coin had sold at a HA in April 2013 as an NGC Au Details Improperly Cleaned coin. I also provided them with the link to the webpage. They offered me free return shipping so this has been a great learning experience, invaluable really... my next purchase will be better informed. But really, where and how do you buy coins (or can you) without paying what they are worth plus a fee?