Near Counterfeit?

[BillJones]

A counterfeit is a copy of an existing known coin or note.

So a Henning nickel isn't a counterfeit, because the US mint never made a 1944 nickel that didn't have a mintmark.

 

Even if it isn't a counterfeit it is still in violation of the HPA because it requires a piece to be marked COPY if it PURPORTS to be a genuine item, and that piece definitely purports to be a 1975 quarter dollar even though none were made.

I don't know much about the Henning Conder. My statement just refers to the normal persons thinking.

 

Here is a Henning nickel for those who have not seen one.

 

[jayman1970]

New thread, same old Dan Carr garbage!

[bsshog40]

A counterfeit is a copy of an existing known coin or note.

So a Henning nickel isn't a counterfeit, because the US mint never made a 1944 nickel that didn't have a mintmark.

 

Even if it isn't a counterfeit it is still in violation of the HPA because it requires a piece to be marked COPY if it PURPORTS to be a genuine item, and that piece definitely purports to be a 1975 quarter dollar even though none were made.

I don't know much about the Henning Conder. My statement just refers to the normal persons thinking.

 

Here is a Henning nickel for those who have not seen one.

 

Thanks Bill!

[copper toning]

Coin world just did a good write up on collecting counterfeits

 

Some fun info on the henning

[dcarr]

I have not visited here in a while - just catching up on some older posts.

Here are my replies to some of the posts in this thread:

 

Way back 30 years ago when I was the Senior Authenticator for the ANA I would have called this a counterfeit coin, but I no longer speak for the ANA.

 

If the coin was presented as an original "1975"-dated quarter minted by the US Mint in 1975, and it was struck on a privately-fabricated (non-legally-monetized) blank, then it would probably be considered a "counterfeit".

 

But when struck over a genuine US Mint quarter dollar, and presented as a fantasy-date over-stike piece, then it is a "novelty item" since no original 1975 quarters exist.

 

Looks exactly like a US coin. Counterfeit.

 

It doesn't look exactly like any US coin because no "1975" Washington quarters were ever produced by the US Mint. And it was privately over-struck on a genuine US coin (no metal added or removed). So it is a defaced US coin, like a "hobo" nickel. There is no existing legal precent to conclude it is a "counterfeit".

 

That is an opinion, not a fact based upon any legal precedent.

Back when I was still working we had a person come into the coin shop with a 1798-CC Trade Dollar. It was a counterfeit U.S. coin, even though no genuine 1798-CC Trade Dollars exist.

 

The difference between the "1798-CC" dollar and my over-strike is, one is a counterfeit and one is a privately-defaced coin.

Any contention that a "1975" over-strike quarter is a "counterfeit" is also just an "opinion" and has no legal precedent either. Is a carved "hobo" nickel a "counterfeit" ?

 

[RWB]

Henning's nickels are counterfeit coins, as are those of every other counterfeiter regardless of their bullkrap excuses and attempts at justification of illicit and immoral actions.

[dcarr]

Henning's nickels are counterfeit coins, as are those of every other counterfeiter regardless of their bullkrap excuses and attempts at justification of illicit and immoral actions.

 

You have yet to post any evidence of legal precedent that a "1975" quarter, privately over-struck on a genuine US Mint Washington Quarter, is a "counterfeit".

 

PS:

Are you sure you want to get into each others' supposed "immoral actions" ?

 

[AHFreak]

I think everyone needs to chill out and relax... If someone is doing something that one doesn't like... then go find something that you do like, and worry about that instead.

 

There is an incredibly diverse collector base when it comes to coins... A large part of coins is and always has been some degree of ART! Going all the way back to when coins were first minted... people were using coins to express creativity and artistic ability... Many will disagree, which is fine... I couldn't care any less. I have seen hobo nickels, old ones, new ones, famous ones that are highly pursued, unknown specimans that are worthless, etc.. I have seen the "fantasy pieces" that DCarr has created, and they along with hobo nickels IMO are 100% art. Not to mention awesome. I am still relatively new to this world or I would own a couple myself... I saw some hobo nickels yesterday, and found myself simply amazed at the level of art and creativity involved... pure talent.

 

Why cant those of you who don't like that sort of stuff just leave it at that??? I don't get all the negativity.

[RWB]

If it quacks like a duck....

 

Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes. (It took decades to get fake Western and Mexican gold bars sold by John J. Ford off the market. Do we have to repeat that because the lesson of history was not learned? ANACS, NGC and PCGS all originated to authenticate coins due to the presence of newly made counterfeit coins.)

 

 

[dcarr]

If it quacks like a duck....

 

So that is your legal precedent that an over-strike novelty "1975" quarter is a "counterfeit" ? That hardly even qualifies as a sentence, let alone a legal precedent.

 

Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes. (It took decades to get fake Western and Mexican gold bars sold by John J. Ford off the market. Do we have to repeat that because the lesson of history was not learned? ANACS, NGC and PCGS all originated to authenticate coins due to the presence of newly made counterfeit coins.)

 

The items you mention here were clandestinely made for the purpose of defraudung someone. They were presented to the market by the originator as genuine originals. Anybody wondering about a "1975" Washington Quarter need only search the internet and they will easily find information such as this thread.

 

[RWB]

Ducks have no pinnae, but they do quack:

 

"If it quacks like a duck....

 

"Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes.

"(It took decades to get fake Western and Mexican gold bars sold by John J. Ford off the market. Do we have to repeat that because the lesson of history was not learned? ANACS, NGC and PCGS all originated to authenticate coins due to the presence of newly made counterfeit coins.)"

 

Reproductions are specifically permitted IF they comply with the Hobby Protection Act. Almost all of the domestic makers of reproductions comply.

[dcarr]

Ducks have no pinnae, but they do quack:

 

"If it quacks like a duck....

 

...

 

Reproductions are specifically permitted IF they comply with the Hobby Protection Act. Almost all of the domestic makers of reproductions comply.

 

So now you are saying that a novelty over-strike "1975" quarter is a "reproduction" ?

 

[RWB]

Greed, ego, and self-deception are powerful talismans.

 

Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes.

 

[dcarr]

Greed, ego, and self-deception are powerful talismans.

 

Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes.

 

You've repeated that already. What about the legal precedent ?

 

Does it bother you that there are collectors for what I make, and every type of over-strike I've done has been selling in internet auctions for more that my issue price ?

 

[RWB]

Fakes and modern counterfeits are not only an abomination in the present; they are a conscious and perverted distortion of history.

 

Comments about false and counterfeit western gold bars and coins are equally applicable to ALL modern counterfeits without limit or delusionary excuses by the perpetrators. “If U.S. history is important to us – if the integrity of collecting Americana is important to us – then these fakes must be identified as such.” [Kleeberg, “How the West was Faked: False Western Gold Bars and other Forgeries,” p.57.]

 

[dcarr]

Fakes and modern counterfeits are not only an abomination in the present; they are a conscious and perverted distortion of history.

 

Comments about false and counterfeit western gold bars and coins are equally applicable to ALL modern counterfeits without limit or delusionary excuses by the perpetrators. “If U.S. history is important to us – if the integrity of collecting Americana is important to us – then these fakes must be identified as such.” [Kleeberg, “How the West was Faked: False Western Gold Bars and other Forgeries,” p.57.]

 

So, due to your evasion of the question, I take it that you can not point to any legal precedent that a novelty "1975" over-strike quarter is a "counterfeit".

 

Without a proper legal basis, you should not be making felony accusations. But this is not surprising since legal matters and choosing words carefully are not your forte (as demonstrated by the Langboard case and your previous posts at the forum across the street).

 

[AHFreak]

This is no longer a debate.... you just keep repeating yourself RWB without really saying anything other than stating your "derogatory opinion" of Mr. Carr on a very personal level. (I too wonder what it is about him that really bothers you? is it about the money, that his work is so popular, is it that he "defaces" common date coins in which there will never be a shortage of anyhow? I am curious why you attack him personally just because he has a different view/opinion/belief system than you?)

I mean, while you get all worked up about this, he goes out and creates something... something that hundreds/thousands/countless collectors pursue, appreciate and value. People want his work period end, people who know exactly what it is, where its from, and how it was made.... He is not breaking any laws, he is not lying, cheating, manipulating, scamming, or taking advantage of anybody...

 

Let's face it, there is a market for what DCarr does... IMO-his work is comparable to any modern works of art. I think it is awesome that he has built a loyal following of collectors who pay relatively high premiums for what he does/creates. (IMO, its "relatively" high now, but only going to go higher... As I don't see his work depreciating). He is an artist... his canvas is a coin. To sit behind a computer screen and repeatedly attack his character, morals, ethics, etc, in a public setting such as this seems quite childish and immature IMO.

 

 

To continue to bash him for "breaking the law" certainly doesn't do anything for your point, you haven't produced anything credible that points or suggests "unlawful activity". I for one am confident that if his work was against the law, or in any way, "NOT OK" with the secret service/gov/etc, that he would know.. Wouldn't we all know it by now if that was the case? I think so... I don't see the secretservice being the type of organization that sits back and watches quietly while Joe Citizen breaks the law, especially if that unlawfulness were in regards to U.S. currency/counterfeiting/etc last I heard they were especially sensitive to counterfeiters, counterfeiting, or anything that can be construed as such..... If there were anything illegal about what he is doing, this conversation would look much different, if it were even being had at all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[disme]

Let's face it, there is a market for what DCarr does... IMO-his work is comparable to any modern works of art. I think it is awesome that he has built a loyal following of collectors who pay relatively high premiums for what he does/creates. (IMO, its "relatively" high now, but only going to go higher... As I don't see his work depreciating). He is an artist... his canvas is a coin. To sit behind a computer screen and repeatedly attack his character, morals, ethics, etc, in a public setting such as this seems quite childish and immature IMO.

 

There is a market for virtually anything, regardless of the ethics involved,

a point apparently lost in the minds of some posters. Is it ethical to strike

pieces such as the 1964 Peace dollar and the 1975 quarter without proper

identification? I think not.

 

In the 19th century the St. Petersburg Mint struck copies of older Russian

coins, sometimes with dates that had not existed until then. These were

called novodels and widely collected because of their official nature.

 

On the other hand there were those who privately struck Russian coins of

a given series with dates and/or mintmaster initials that had never been

used. These were called counterfeits and properly so.

 

 

 

[RWB]

AHF: This is no longer a debate.... you just keep repeating yourself RWB without really saying anything other than stating your "derogatory opinion" of Mr. Carr on a very personal level.

 

1. There is no debate. I have no personal opinion about Mr. Carr. I've never met him. You have assumed something to support your argument - it is fallacious. He can make and sell his medals and tokens to anyone who will buy. He has posted nothing above which merits a specific reply from me.

 

2. I have clear opinions about modern counterfeits, fakes and those who make them. You may make whatever connection you wish. Read the words carefully:

Fakes and modern counterfeits are not only an abomination in the present; they are a conscious and perverted distortion of history.

 

3. The U.S. Code is clear. Find a copy and read it for yourself -- if you learned anything from an earlier post it is that you have to do your own research.

 

[AHFreak]

3. The U.S. Code is clear. Find a copy and read it for yourself -- if you learned anything from an earlier post it is that you have to do your own research.

 

I will keep doing what Im doing on this side, As I feel like I have done OK in the 3 years since I decided I was going to get involved in the coin business... You can keep doing what you do on your side, as clearly "the research" is something you are "extremely passionate" about!

 

Sure, I could do a little more research here and there, as you have been so kind to point out on multiple occasions now... but why?

for what? I also think its probably fair to say that you could use a break here and there from your research for a little sharpening up on your "social skills". I mean, with such a disconnect when it comes to interpersonal communication skills, what good does all this incredible knowledge you have acquired via "research" do you? What purpose does it serve you? Are you still able to find people who can put up with your "elitism" long enough to even get into any sort of meaningful conversation about all that great wisdom you have?

 

Here's an idea, you share some of your knowledge that can only be found with this very deep "out of the box" digging and searching you speak of...(research that I have no interest in ever doing because it does not/will not apply to my current reality) and in return I will help you with your extremely poor communication skills??? If we have a deal, the first thing we need to do is begin working on your EGO/ narcissism, and the affect it has on how you communicate with people. With two hard-headed guys like us, it will be a tough egg to crack, but Im confident that we can at least help each other out a bit.

 

 

If you were a little more open minded, you would realize that everyone has opinions, and opinions are OK, and should be respected. There are people who think DCarr fantasy pieces are GREAT-(like me), and others who think they are TERRIBLE-(like you)... everyone who forms an opinion on this is right in their own mind for their own reasons... Here's I guess where I am missing something... you take it beyond an opinion and start throwing accusations out there. not only by attacking his personal character but also by declaring his work illegal with references to "back it up"... This is where you lose me... Is it illegal because it really is based on law? Or is it illegal because when YOU read that particular section on this matter, YOU form the conclusion that it is illegal? Here, tell me this: If his work is illegal in any way shape or form, why hasn't the authorities intervened? Why havent the feds knocked down his door? Your strong belief that he is a counterfeiter is based only on your OPINION that you drew based on all your strenuous research, regardless of whether or not you can see it that way... that's all it is, your opinion.

 

Regardless of whether or not its right or wrong, If it was truly illegal, the authorities would have done something about it.

[disme]

Regardless of whether or not its right or wrong, If it was truly illegal, the authorities would have done something about it.

 

Anyone who thinks that the Federal Government does something about

everything that is illegal does not understand the real world.

[AHFreak]

Regardless of whether or not its right or wrong, If it was truly illegal, the authorities would have done something about it.

 

Anyone who thinks that the Federal Government does something about

everything that is illegal does not understand the real world.

 

I completely agree! Now is that just a point you felt like making, regardless of how off topic it was? Or did you really misconstrue what I said, so you could come to the conclusion that I really feel that way??? Why don't you read it again...

[RWB]

Modern fake and counterfeit coins, and other numismatic items, are important to collectors, historians and others for reasons clearly stated earlier and in the legal codes.

 

However, by volume of material and value of the fraud perpetrated, they are miniscule when compared to consumer goods, mechanical parts and other merchandise. It is unlikely that anyone will lose their life because of a counterfeit Peace dollar; but many could die if a counterfeit aircraft part is used.

 

Government should not do what people can do for themselves. The hobby – the “we” of collectors, dealers and publishers – should condemn ALL modern counterfeit and fake numismatic items from ALL sources, and reject the delusional excuses of perpetrators.

 

[disme]

Regardless of whether or not its right or wrong, If it was truly illegal, the authorities would have done something about it.

 

Anyone who thinks that the Federal Government does something about

everything that is illegal does not understand the real world.

 

I completely agree! Now is that just a point you felt like making, regardless of how off topic it was? Or did you really misconstrue what I said, so you could come to the conclusion that I really feel that way??? Why don't you read it again...

 

Your statement is easily understood and I commented appropriately.

[MJ]

The hobby – the “we” of collectors, dealers and publishers – should condemn ALL modern counterfeit and fake numismatic items from ALL sources, and reject the delusional excuses of perpetrators.

 

I would never speak for "we" what I will speak for myself

 

a) You will never get "we" to agree on what "ALL" modern counterfeit and fake numismatic items are.

 

b) Clearly Dan Carr's work is neither counterfeit nor fake. That is 100% factual to me. Clearly some of you feel otherwise. How can that be? Oh, we have differences of opinions. I can live with that. Telling me right from wrong is not going to cut it.

 

MJ

 

[braddick]

I wish I'd have kept the 1964 Peace dollar I purchased back at issue, before they sold out.

 

I am looking forward to owning the 1965 issue.

They're attractive coins, no doubt- and a pleasure to collect.

 

If the Government had an issue with any of this they certainly would have responded by now- yet they have not.

 

My favorite response to those who would like to see the MoonLight Mint shut down came from another collector, on another forum, on another thread when he simply stated, "You know what I do when I don't like a television program? I turn the channel".

 

Collect what you like and simply don't collect that which you don't.

Seems simple enough.

[MarkFeld]

I wish I'd have kept the 1964 Peace dollar I purchased back at issue, before they sold out.

 

I am looking forward to owning the 1965 issue.

They're attractive coins, no doubt- and a pleasure to collect.

 

If the Government had an issue with any of this they certainly would have responded by now- yet they have not.

 

My favorite response to those who would like to see the MoonLight Mint shut down came from another collector, on another forum, on another thread when he simply stated, "You know what I do when I don't like a television program? I turn the channel".

 

Collect what you like and simply don't collect that which you don't.

Seems simple enough.

 

Pat, I think a number of hobbyists have a legitimate concern that coins of the type being discussed (along with others that are unquestionably counterfeit) harm the hobby. And that is quite different from not liking certain TV shows and simply turning the channel.

[braddick]

"...harm the hobby."

 

Who? How? Why?

 

Could be argued some gratuitously violent shows, "harm society", yet if they're legal to produce and then distribute, I simply change the channel.

 

No one has specifically stated how collecting overstruck minted coins is a danger to anyone and no one has pointed out where these are illegal to mint and sell and collect.

 

Boils down to personal taste, followed up with then attempting to dictate to others based on that opinion.

[MarkFeld]

"...harm the hobby."

 

Who? How? Why?

 

Could be argued some gratuitously violent shows, "harm society", yet if they're legal to produce and then distribute, I simply change the channel.

 

No one has specifically stated how collecting overstruck minted coins is a danger to anyone and no one has pointed out where these are illegal to mint and sell and collect.

 

Boils down to personal taste, followed up with then attempting to dictate to others based on that opinion.

 

Counterfeits usually end up in the hands of unknowing buyers. Once or if they find out what they really have, they might stop buying/enjoying coins and/or exit the hobby. And some of those who are aware of the vast number of counterfeits making the rounds are negatively impacted as well - at a minimum, with respect to their enjoyment of the hobby.

 

I am opposed to the Carr coins BUT, I am not convinced that they should be deemed counterfeits. And I sure wouldn't tell collectors they shouldn't buy them - that's their choice.

 

I agree with you that it could be argued some TV shows "harm" society.

[RWB]

MJ - As noted earlier:

 

"Greed, ego, and self-deception are powerful talismans.

 

"Modern fake and counterfeit coins are an abomination, illegal and immoral - just as are their makers. Henning was a crook just as was, and is, every importer or maker of fakes."