What do you think of KP's World catalogues??

[cladking]

Well, the catalog is on Amazon. I made the buy directly from Krause/F+W--the 5 books/$99/free shipping deal was too good to pass up.

 

I haven't done anything remotely resembling an exhaustive review of it. It certainly is better than my old one purchased in the early 2000s. However, Japan is all jacked up. Going by a review from the 2014 at least I can say Panama, China/Taiwan and Spain are back. Just not much from Japan from about 1950-1989.

 

Yes, that is my review on the book. I am not pleased. It's a book to buy, but I am not pleased, which has nothing to do with pricing/values listed and everything to do with editing and proofing.

 

I had already ordered it before ever seeing the 5 for $99 deal so missed out on this as well... ...and still don't have the book which I normally would have gotten weeks ago.

 

When they left out all those countries a few years back I had imagined they were removed for updating and then were accidently omitted but this wasn't the case. Even though Japan is sorely in need of updating (and one of my favorite countries) it will probably reappear just like it disappeared.

 

I won't pre-judge it but this is certainly a bad omen.

[World Colonial]

I was hoping to have a critique of the new Krause 1901-2000 catalog by now but Amazon dropped the ball and it may be a week or two yet. I've been consoling myself but checking prices on eBay relative to Krause.

 

For the main part it seems Krause actually reflects some of these prices reasonably well but there are a few exceptions and caveats to this. Major country's moderns seem a little more available but more esoteric coins are a little more likely to go for more. Most importantly though is that higher prices have not brought some moderns onto the market. This implies that there is more demand than I had been imagining that is driving up prices on the available coins. There are hundreds of BU modern Russia listed which is far more than I'd have expected.

 

There's also some apparent speculation in some of these coins, or it might be exuberance. Higher prices have not made better Indian coins available but there are poor specimens trading at very high prices. Coins that listed at a dime a few years ago that now list for $6 in Unc are bringing $12 for low grade culls. It is probable that Indian moderns are quite scarce in low grade compared to other moderns but these were made in huge numbers and most probably survive in very substantial numbers. Even a 1% survival rate would make them very common. I would advise against paying substantial premiums for any poor quality Indian coinage. Even nice Unc material should be treated cautiously at these new higher prices. There are a few coins on eBay that don't look overpriced but the vast majority are either uncollectible and/ or overpriced.

 

When I finally get it I'm hoping the new Krause will counter WorldColonial's argument better than anything I could come up with.

 

What exactly do you expect Krause to provide to support your claims? Most of your premises are independent of any number Krause has included. This aside from the fact that most of these numbers are just made up anyway and there is little to zero evidence that they represent real prices except in the context I have already conceded.

If you are going to once again attempt use the Krause data to support your claim for a trend, there isn't one for the reason I already gave you. Collectors do not collect moderns (or any coins) in the manner you implied in your posts. You aren't even doing it yourself, so why would you believe this applies to anyone else?

 

The only generic collecting of world moderns that occurs on any scale is exactly how you collect them which is buying them at nominal prices. It is economically irrelevant. If there is anyone who is buying the scarcer world moderns across the board for prices that are economically "material" as you have implied or think they will, I would really like to meet this person. I don't believe there are any collectors who have any interest in moderns in the manner you implied. And the reason I believe this is because it is equally true of world "classics". Except maybe in isoaltion, no one collects the latter coins like this either. They collect them by series, theme or some other common linkage which does not exist in your claims at all.

 

As I told you a few posts ago, it is unlikely that collectors outside of the United States are even aware of the terminology "modern" and "classic", regardless that they prefer the coins US collecters call "classics".

 

How this preference will impact prices is going to be country or series specific. In the New Zealand example you recently used, I don't see much evidence that collectors really have much of a preference. The KGVI base metal shillings I also believe are (generally) scarcer but they are hardly ignored and there isn't any requirement that collectors view them as equal to their silver counterparts, even if you think they should. In the SA RSA example I used, going by the NGC census, collectors have some preference for the 1961-1964 silver issues but all of them are common as dirt (as a generic date) and there isn't any reason to believe that any of them should or will sell for any price of consequence except maybe for "grade rarities".

 

During our prior post exchanges, I performed a Google search which claimed there are 196 countries today (as UN members). Likely, somewhat over 200 issue coins. Out of these, I have already conceded to you that some of these will become more popular and expensive, though nowhere near what you apparently think for the reasons I already gave. I specifically listed a few examples in my "eight points of agreement" and presumably, if we were to go over the specifics of each country or series, I expect that I would find a few others to add to my list.

 

But regardless, the reason you and I are never going to agree generically is because your premises do not reflect how collectors actually act, either today, in the past and you have provided no reason why they will in the future either.

[Star City Homer]

Back to the Krause itself (2015 1901-2000), has anyone noticed any errors other than the Japan section? I ask because I guess someone at Krause noticed my Amazon review and I got an email about it.

 

I wish they'd noticed my other review and had done an intervention (I got ANOTHER form letter yesterday...nothing more frustrating than a form letter when you just asked for a human response).

 

Anyway, I'm answering my email to the real person, and it would be nice to forward on any other comments if anyone has any.

 

Cathy

[World Colonial]

If you collect Japan, there must be a local reference that is much better than Krause. I have limited familiarity with the post 1870 issues but have never owned any of these coins or researched them.

 

Even aside from the pricing, I think it is probably unrealistic to expect few errors in a volume the size of a telephone book. Not sure what errors you are talking about but the ones I believe are in it are the listing of coins that either do not or never even existed. I mentioned several of these in my series much earlier in this thread. I own the 1998 edition of the 19th and 20th centuries and the 1997 of the 18th. I also own part of a more recent electronic version for Africa but have no intention of ever buying another one. It is a waste of money, regardless of its level of accuracy.

[gmarguli]

Back to the Krause itself (2015 1901-2000), has anyone noticed any errors other than the Japan section? I ask because I guess someone at Krause noticed my Amazon review and I got an email about it.

 

Errors? Well they went ahead and made the CD version non-searchable. Even though the cover says searchable, it is not. Sure, you can search for the country, but if you try searching by KM # or date or wording, it doesn't find it. They took the most helpful feature of the catalog and ruined it.

 

Pricing wise they appear to have made some really stupid mistakes. One coin that I own 95%+ of the existing population went from $350 to $100 in UNC. Odd since they are bringing $350-$500 in the marketplace. They also adjusted how many are out there. You'd think that they would have contacted the only person selling these to ask questions rather that just making stuff up.

 

A coin with a mintage of 5 just went up from $300 to $1000. Very odd since it is highly likely the only one that sold in the last year is one I purchased for a little over $200.

 

Another coin that is fairly popular went from $250 (39th & 40th edition) to $125 (41st edition) to $30 in this edition. These coins sell frequently for $90-$150 (I can wholesale them for $80 to multiple dealers). No idea whey they decided to yet again drop the price, especially since they have resisted dropping the prices of other coins for so many years. This includes the ridiculous pricing of modern Germany.

 

They priced numerous King's Norton specimen coins extremely oddly. I'm not sure where they came up with the numbers, but they don't come close to reality. Stuff they have priced at a little over a hundred I am routinely getting 3X-5X times that much. I highly doubt they talked to any of the three dealers who have been selling the vast majority of these coins over the last couple of years.

 

The 1924-D Germany 3M still shows as $700 in MS60 and $400 in MS63.

 

It's hard to believe you can continue to become more disappointed in Krause catalogs, but they keep finding a way.

[World Colonial]

I'm not sure where they came up with the numbers, but they don't come close to reality.

 

As your examples and those I have used throughout this thread indicate, there is isn't a reason to believe any of them. They just make them up. It isn't any different than those in a local catalog such as Hern for South Africa Union and ZAR.

[Star City Homer]

Well, I look at Krause as a starting point when it comes to values. A medical text won't have the most up to date info either...and I wouldn't expect that with a printed catalog either. If I want values for Japanese coins I'll look in my JNDA (much smaller and updated annually), and still expect to be surprised sometimes. I don't expect missing countries or sections of countries.

 

I have never tried the CD version and it does seem ludicrous that it is not searchable. Heck, it seems like Krause should be an app by now and all you have to do is take a picture with your phone's camera and the catalog should match it to the coin (or group of similar coins) immediately. Hmm, maybe there is a business opportunity in that idea for someone with the skills.

 

Anyway, I did get a pretty nice response in my email that included a PDF with the missing coins from Japan. Not only that, the pages were posted onto Amazon's 'customer photo' section by the publisher so anyone can read them.

 

They also offered me a coupon or discount on a future buy--nice customer service, but I did change my review rating and didn't want there to be any feeling of being bought. If I want something else I'll just buy it like I normally do.

 

I probably could have kept a star off the review because no catalog is perfect...and I didn't have the CD version. Non-searchable would be a big NO. The paper catalog was perfect the other day--my DH's BFF (if guys have BFFs) handed me a pile of coins to sort through and one had me stumped. It was only by flipping pages that I found it (in all it's 25 cent value glory).

 

Oh well, if anyone else has any specific issues I now have the name and email of a live human who actually accomplished something good there. I can pass the email on if anyone wants/needs it.

[Gallienus]

A very interesting and enlightening post. I collect ancient coins and also the coins of Latin America. I go to great lengths to collect Dictators on coins. During the circulating gold & silver coin days, these can be difficult to obtain & I've obtained some of the rarest & nicest ones.

 

I was the immediate underbidder on the Lissner Auction, Mexican 8 escudos (1822) of Augustin Iturbide (MS-62), who seized power during the Revolution and installed himself as Dictator. I did buy the very rare 8 reales (silver crown) with the portrait of the Argentine dictator Mario Rosas struck in 1836 from Stack's. I've portrait coins of Julius Caesar, Nero, Oliver Cromwell (not ancient) and will be bidding on a high grade Cleopatra tetradrachm.

 

However I've noticed a lot of interesting pieces struck after the demise of silver and the issuance of clad or base metal coinage. In change I picked up a Panamanian nickel with the portrait of their 1st woman President: disliked by many for her socialist policies and probably not struck for long. Since it was not mint state I probably spent it. A lot of very interesting non-precious metal coinage is being discarded by many.

 

I used to delight in getting USA 40% (and 90% !!!) silver halves out of banks in the US. In mid-2013, I spent $11 on halves at a bank and, out of that, got only one non-silver coin in the whole bunch ! I probably bypassed many clad coins, although, to be honest for the past 10 years whenever I came across a particularly nice clad 50 cents or Ike dollar, I'd put it in a p-e coin sleeve & a paper coin pocket (NOT pvc nor bare paper) and toss it in a junk box in the closet.

 

However one should make a point of saving perhaps some of these interesting pieces in Latin America. Probably the interesting coins with portraits will be worth the least as some people will save those in ms.

 

Also I should mention the difficulty of obtaining coinage. I now live in Sao Paulo, Brazil. We have a bank account with the equivalent of several thousand USD at that bank. This is supposedly the "better" bank, with improved customer service for higher value account holders. I withdrew a couple hundred reales (1 Br real = 50 cents US). I asked for a few of their coins in the teller's tray. They refused to sell me a single coin, even though I had an account there. Possibly they're reserved just for businesses to make change with? Anyhow getting these coins, other than worn specimens from change is not easy.

 

Of course once the money in some LA countries devalues to being worth 1x 10-15th of a cent (one quadrillionth of a cent), all those copper and nickel coins have to be melted down.

 

 

[BillJones]

I don't like them at all.

 

Years ago they used cover a few centuries from so 1700 or 1800 to the present. Then, like The United States, countries started to issue a bunch of boring commemorative coins that filled pages with information that did not interest me at all. KP then split up the catalogs to the point where they covered maybe a century if you were lucky and the prices for the catalogs were through the roof. They also seemed to issue updates constantly which made the expensive catalog you had just purchased obsolete in no time.

 

So, the bottom line is I don't like them at all.

 

Since I collect mostly U.S. and British, I buy the Red Book and Spink's guide books. KP to me is useless and expensive.

[Lucky One]

One of Krause's biggest weaknesses is coin physical properties. For very many coins, they lack them. They make sure to get all the silver, but the rest, not so much. By contrast, Numista always has those in my experience. There isn't much excuse for it, because the weight of a given past issue doesn't exactly fluctuate from year to year, and if they once get the data they can use it for the foreseeable future.

 

Why they left some countries off the print book and included them in the CD probably has to do with physical space in the enormous book, which isn't really a good excuse. I'd think it were more important to have Spain listed than some of those that made it.

 

I'm no expert in foreign but I have several Krause references from years ago and remember being frustrated with some issues being left out here and there. But if I recall, they put out a book on just Spanish didn't they? Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, it could have been another publisher or author but I remember seeing one at a coin show long ago when I bought my Krause guides.

 

And while on the subject- I wanted to look up a few of my really old foreigns for today's values since my books are over 20 years old- does anyone know if there are online price guides and mintage info that I could look up? Any help would be appreciated, and the main areas I'm looking for are S. America and Europe.

[Lucky One]

I don't like them at all.

 

Years ago they used cover a few centuries from so 1700 or 1800 to the present. Then, like The United States, countries started to issue a bunch of boring commemorative coins that filled pages with information that did not interest me at all. KP then split up the catalogs to the point where they covered maybe a century if you were lucky and the prices for the catalogs were through the roof. They also seemed to issue updates constantly which made the expensive catalog you had just purchased obsolete in no time.

 

So, the bottom line is I don't like them at all.

 

Since I collect mostly U.S. and British, I buy the Red Book and Spink's guide books. KP to me is useless and expensive.

 

I agree with every statement you made. Good thing we didn't travel the show circuit together, we'd have spent all of our time complaining about what we didn't like in the hobby. I always wondered how/why some series weren't included, or why they had to charge so much for what was basically a phone book with no more upkeep. I built personal and business computers for a living, competed with the likes of Dell, Gateway and all the big box stores, so I learned early on that selling it for less brought me more volume, which in turn made me more sales than they made. I know the two businesses are a lot different, but I used to think about how many more foreign collectors there would be and how many more sales dealers could get if only Krause made those catalogs affordable to everyone who could afford to collect them since foreign coins were so cheap back then. (I think I paid $30 to $40 for their various catalogs even back in the late 1980's or mid 1990's, a huge amount for newsprint in a paper binding!)