Beware of criminal coin dealers (Part II) by CaptBrian1

[CSJournals-migration]

I have returned from vacation and here is where it stands.

 

I will still not mention names, as we (the dealer in question) and I had another conversation on the phone regarding the transaction in question and it is not resolved as yet. The fellow on the selling end has left it with, "I'll get back to you." again. That's fine, I have documented the situation and time is on my side. I simply told him that I want my money back or I will take steps. I outlined some of my abilities to plead my case in print before being all legal about it. To answer a question on one of the replies, the dealer in question is in Texas. I won't be more specific just yet. But I will tell you what happened. I was at the F.U.N Show in Orlando last January and met a dealer who took my name and had called me a number of times touting his wares, and none enamoured me until he held in front of me [verbally] two St. Gaudens from the Wells Fargo Hoard. Now it may appear that perhaps I should have known about this, but as I am not a professional, dealer nor expert, and quite frankly, as I just retired last October, I have not had a lot of time to transition [knowledge-wise] from my bullion hoarding for years to a numimatist. I have focused on collectibles for less than a year. (By now JUST barely a year)

The salesman wanted me to buy two coins, $20 St. Gaudens from the Well Fargo Hoard. Well, trusting me, I took his word as he was apparently from a reputable dealer, took the coins, and intended to offer them as such at the F.U.N. Show in Orlando in January of next year, (2014). In bragging to another dealer what good deal I made, he offered me a little more than I paid, and being that I am not collecting those, made a deal. I got the coins, paid by cashiers check, and shipped them on to my guy and the bird hit the windshield. They were not from the Wells Fargo Hoard, one was even holdered by PCGS, and not pedigreed as they should have been. The guy never told me that 'hoard' coins are pedigreed, and should be so marked. He just sent me two generic coins and marketed them to a fool as WF coins. Well, after all the smoke and mirrors (his rhetoric is legend) the facts are I paid about $2500 more than the generic coins would be worth. Anyway, I am trying to unwind the deal, and he is putting up quite a squawk, saying I should have known, and I have only 5 days to 'not like the coins' (not true, I have/had 30) and he knew I was heading out on vacation and would be put in a time warp. Well he also said that the coins were WF and someone cracked them out attempting to get a better grade, and so on. He also said, NGC would be willing to 'reholder them as WF hoard'. Not so, I talked over an hour with NGC about that. NO WAY. Today he is 'willing' to take them back on consignment and "see what he can do". I stuck to my guns and simply said, "Let's just unwind the deal like gentlemen, or send me a check for $2500. Well, he kept up the fancy rhetoric, covering ground again and again hoping I may get tired or brainwashed and cave in. Well, pilgrim, I ain't been known [up to now] as one who caves in. Only way to lose is to quit, especially when I know I am right. So, that's where it is at as of today. Perhaps a bit closer. I will continue to play my cards close to my chest, so if he relents, I will give him a pass on letting the public know what he is. If he fails to meet my simple 'deal', I will shout it from the rooftops AND with officials. He keeps going back to me not using my time to return coins,(not up yet) and "I should have known." And a few etc.'s.

Stay tuned, it is not over by a long ways.

Capt. Brian

 

See more journals by CaptBrian1

[Jack Robinson]

First, I want to say that I am sorry to hear that once again, a--dealer-- took advantage of a novice numismatist. With that said, and here is the rub as I read this post, you bought "raw" high valued coins, sight-unseen nor, researched?

 

Or, did the dealer tell you in advance that they were already graded by NGC and PCGS? If he (or, she) did, then research would have provided clues that something was not right, right? In this I am referring to the registry numbers of each coin.

 

Also, as I read this post I am confused about the route of the transition of the coins. Did they go from the -- dealer-- to you or, from dealer to the new buyer?

 

IMHO, we are always learning as we go in this adventure of coin collecting. So, through your hardship, that you are sharing with us, we too can learn to be more demanding and focused in our purchasing of coins.

 

Again IMHO, I would not cosign with the original dealer... this would mean he would get a cut in the sell of your over priced coins (getting even more money from you). Or, in another scenario, he could not sell your two coins for profit, since they were originally purchased over priced.

 

I wish you well in your search for justice. Please do a part III follow up.

 

Semper Fi !

 

Jack

[brg5658]

I don't follow your rambling story --not sure who bought from whom etc. -- I even read it twice. Regardless, I hope you get everything figured out. There's always someone out to make a buck, seems you got hit by one of them.

 

Best of luck!

[CaptBrian]

I don't follow your rambling story --not sure who bought from whom etc. -- I even read it twice. Regardless, I hope you get everything figured out. There's always someone out to make a buck, seems you got hit by one of them.

 

You wrote the above; Well Sorry about the gibberish, I guess I am about as good a writer as a collector, but I'm tryin'.

 

It is simple, he sold me coins saying they were from the Wells Fargo Hoard, and they are not. I want my money back, as what I paid for what I got is a difference of at least $2500.00 I am attempting to undo the deal.

 

I bought two coins which were not what the man said they were. I told someone about them, and they offered me a couple of hundred more than I paid, so I agreed. I had not gotten them yet when I sold them. Whe I got them I did not know them different from the WF Hoard, and the fellow who I sold them to knew instantly they were not pedigreed WF.

 

So I am trying to un do the deal. In Texas, I have 30 days to get my money back and that time has not passed. He is stalling. I have the coins back and am waiting to hear from the dealer.

 

Hope that clears it up for you. Sorry for the gibberish.

Capt. Brian

[CaptBrian]

Hi Jack, and thanks for the reply. I did not buy raw coins. You can see them in the picture of my recent post now. I did not research it to the fact that the coins had to be pedigreed on the label to make them Wells Fargo Hoard certified. I did research the 'story' and 'date' and it fit. Had I known that they had to be pedigreed, of course then, I would have seen through his charade.

I bought them from dealer #1, received them, and sent them on to the fellow who wanted to buy them from me. I sold them before I got them. Not unusual for me to my friend also in Texas. There is no way I will send coins to be consigned, no worries there. I am simply going to put his feet in the fire to back out the deal and call it a day. Thanks so much for your interest and advice.

Capt. Brian

[Raisethis2]

This seems pretty simple to me. If the Dealer, ANY DEALER represents a coin to a novice or a well seasoned collector to be something that it's not (or something he can't prove it to be) within a reasonable time period he should be willing to completely refund the money spent for the returned coins.

 

It's a matter of integrity and buyer beware should not apply.

 

This Dealer should unwind the deal without delay.

[wdrob]

 

Seems simple enough.

 

 

I would strongly suggest that in any written correspondence with the dealer you might have, you may want to make use of paragraphs. That initial return post was extremely hard to read and follow.

 

 

[CSdot]

Not sure I know why the "Wells Fargo" hoard should matter, but I would happily add one of those to my Saint collection. You say you over paid by $2,500, but don't mention what amount you paid him?

 

While grading site values are notoriously on the high side, PCGS values the coin at $8,250, while NGC is much prouder of its coin at $9,500.

 

Here is the provenance for the PCGS example:

 

http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=1184%20&lotNo=6106&x=0&y=0

[okbustchaser]

First, an admission...I don't collect gold. But dispite this I can't think of a reason why a "hoard" coin would bring a 2500 dollar premium. Most hoards of which I have heard if anything bring a discount as they would tend to be more common than other date/mm combinations in the series.

 

However, even if this particular hoard does bring a premium how do you know the coins in question aren't from the hoard? You state that the date/mm corresponds with the hoard.

 

Coins are cracked out of holders daily in an attempt to either upgrade or to cross to another TPG. Very seldom when this is done does a pedigree continue to be listed on the label since the TPG would have no way to know that the coin was originally listed that way.

 

 

[CaptBrian]

Well, I too believe 'a coin is a coin'. But, collectors are a breed apart. I know that a first strike, or early release will overall not be any different from any that is not labled as such. But, in the eyes of the dyed in the wool collectors specialty labels are important to a greater and lesser extent. For me as a novice, I look at the grade, rarity, and grader. I still am reticent at having any but inexpensive coins graded by others than NGC or PCGS. It has been proven to me that they are so equal, there is probably no difference. Writers say how NGC puts out more "70's" by a wide margin, but NGC grades more coins. Also, ANA choses NGC over PCGS. Why? Doesn't matter. It has been proven by me, that both graders are wonderful and trusted. Others, I am sure will come up to their level, but I think that will take time.

So,in the meantime, I will go with the flow and recognize 'labels' as a significant difference in collections. I will NOT however pay great premiums for a 'pedigreed coin'. A rose by any other name...

As far as [cracking out a coin] to attempt at a better grade, I have no problem with a gamble like that, I just wish there was a forum where the graders could/would keep track so as not to sully the actual numbers of certain grades. Perhaps in the not too distant future, there would be a way of digitally tracking each coin so the grader can tell, "HEY< this coin has been graded before!!!" I suppose that would be impossible, but I live in a perfect world where no one cheats. (which has gotten me into trouble again and again) I will never learn. Too bad, its much easier to deal with honest people.. OH well....

Bottom line is, if it is a WF coin, it must say so on the label in our imperfect world. If not, then it should not be represented as such. Using the possibility to raise a price, delude, defraud or cheat someone.

Capt. Brian

[RichH]

Capt Brian,

 

I would be very careful calling someone a "criminal" in writing. This claim can open you up to a legal charge of libel.

 

I have read your version of the facts, and not the dealers's. I am not saying who is right and who is wrong in this disputed matter, just cautioning as to what you are publishing in writing for public consumption.

 

RichH

[okbustchaser]

Bottom line is, if it is a WF coin, it must say so on the label in our imperfect world. If not, then it should not be represented as such. Using the possibility to raise a price, delude, defraud or cheat someone.

Capt. Brian

 

The label has absolutely nothing to do with whether it is a hoard coin or not. If the coin in question came from a particular hoard then it is a hoard coin regardless of what it either does or doesn't say on the lable. Same as with a variety coin. For example, this is a 1811 punctuated date. The fact that PCGS doesn't call it as such doesn't mean it isn't. It merely means that PGCS didn't lable it as such.

 

 

Back to hoard coins, though, the following coin is a Randall Hoard coin. Doesn't say anything about it on the NGC lable, but the fact remains that it came out of those particular kegs of large cents.

 

[Nutmeg Coin]

Too rich for my blood, I try to not buy or sell grade rarities. It sounds like you were hustled, someone exercising sales on steroids of which there are a few bad boys out there for sure.

 

To do your research on reasonable sell prices on these puppies, you can go through the Heritage Auctions archives on numismatics: http://www.ha.com/ You could also download Greysheet/Bluesheet which gives a grade by grade breakdown on pricespreads.

 

I was not aware that the Wells Fargo hoard really carried that sort of premium even if on the label. Most people who have been in this business/hobby for a while have seen quite a few operators who actually went to jail for real fraud such as Kearney/Romano operating a boiler room out of Long Island, more Corleone than Sainsbury.

 

It sounds like a civil complaint to me not criminal, but most people sidestep legal accusations wisely.

[RichH]

Fully agree with Nutmeg's comments.

 

Also very surprised as to the WF premium. For example, I own a couple Eliasberg Indian Cents and don't believe there is a great markup for this pedigree.

[CaptBrian]

This Reply will be posted in the comments on the article section, will not mention your name without permission.

Your reply is a great help. Obviously you have been down this road before. I am now back from vacation and other than an occaisional wxend out to a coin show or a NASCAR race, I will be here educating myself in the coin world. Hope to branch to currency.

I have done a great deal of research in the Wells Fargo incident, and have documention enough to convince anyone, even a non coin person that the coins were presented incorrectly, and being that I am not a dealer or 'professional', it behooves the selling dealer to cover all the facts. The more expensive an item is, the more of the facts should be covered. If you are buying instructions on how to push a spagetti noodle through a hot dog, then I suppose all the facts are not needed. But when $15000 is concerned, hiding details which make the value is not wise.

Thanks. I will go for it soon. Upon returning from vacation, I brought with me a nasty cold and have trouble thinking much less getting into a verbal battle.

Watch the replies here for the goings on, and I will publish a journal when enough is there to say something.

Thanks again

Capt. Brian