Working on my CLAD DIMES and Mint Sets posted by Six Mile Rick
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Hi MW,

I'm glad that you found my response to be well thought out, and yes, I have been on both sides of numismatics. I worked at a coin shop for a while, and I'm still a limited vest pocket dealer myself but I really only do this to fund my own collection at this point. And I completely understand your frustrations with the "70 Seekers" as you so wonderfully put it.....I really like that description. I had my troubles with them as well in my experiences on the dealer side of numismatics. And I think that you made the right decision for yourself and your business by not submitting coins for clients any longer.......sometimes it's just not worth it, and if they want to chase those 70's they can join NGC themselves......it's easy enough to do. So I completely understand where you're coming from on many things. I think we've had some very similar experiences.

 

I also see that the money/investment part of numismatics is important to you, and I get that as well. You just approach things a little differently than I and some others here do. And that's great. It's good to have the thoughts and experiences from numismatists from all areas and philosophies of this great hobby/occupation of ours. I'm glad that you've found the answers you were seeking and that I was a part of providing that for you. As someone who aspires to be an educator such as myself, that makes me feel really good when I can help do that for people. And as far as not being popular.....I don't think that's entirely true. Sure, there are some people with thin skin here, and those who cannot or will not understand a point of view that is not their own but I like to think that they are in the minority here and people like that are everywhere in life. But I for one would be happy to see you stick around in whatever capacity suits you. I think you have some valuable perspectives and experiences to share, and I've found this interchange to be thought-provoking and it gave me a reason to reflect on some of my own experiences and thoughts as both a collector and dealer. So I thank you for that.

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..MW....It is about time I chimed on this subject, being the one of a few high grade collectors of these modern dimes. I know you say there are worthless and in your world, they are.. I will give you a challenge.. Go to my collection of these modern worthless dimes.. Find what year I am missing a ms69 FT.. (FT means Full torch ) Besides a SMS coin.. For every ms69 FT dime you get back from NGC after sending them in. I will give you 800.00 !!!!!!!!!! Since there in no profit in these coins, here is you challenge... Start buying mint sets and make sure you bring your loop.... Good luck and I hope to be hearing from you..

P.S. If you thing I am lying about the payment .. Ask any collector in here that knows me. My word is better than gold !

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Perhaps MW is right about the tpg's ruining the hobby. It is probably much harder to shaft collectors when they walk through the door with their certified coins.

 

I would imagine he will find a way though.

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..MW....It is about time I chimed on this subject, being the one of a few high grade collectors of these modern dimes. I know you say there are worthless and in your world, they are.. I will give you a challenge.. Go to my collection of these modern worthless dimes.. Find what year I am missing a ms69 FT.. (FT means Full torch ) Besides a SMS coin.. For every ms69 FT dime you get back from NGC after sending them in. I will give you 800.00 !!!!!!!!!! Since there in no profit in these coins, here is you challenge... Start buying mint sets and make sure you bring your loop.... Good luck and I hope to be hearing from you..

P.S. If you thing I am lying about the payment .. Ask any collector in here that knows me. My word is better than gold !

 

I do believe your challenge is legitimate, but if you have read this entire thread then you know why I must obviously decline. If you would like I can write MS69FT on a bunch of dimes with a sharpie and send them to you... They will be as valuable as anything NGC threw it's ink on... Good luck though, and when your great, great, great grand-son/daughter comes into the shop with his/her $800 dime, perhaps my great, great, great grand-son/daughter will shed a tear later that evening when he/she gets home from the shop b/c they had to see the look on their face after we could only offer him/her 8 Cents for it (no, we would trade him/her fair and even - a dime for a dime). Seriously??? $800.00?? I didn't check to see what year you needed, was it a 1796? (Obviously joking to make a point). Aaargh... I am still not getting through it seems. You should have read the very first line of your own response before you continued writing b/c you pointed out my main point in doing so... You are 1 of only a very few. Coins are great when they are as such. Collectors are not. If you are the only one dong what you are doing in this country populated by over 314 million people... well... just think about that statement for a minute or 2 and see if your opinions change any...

 

I am going to "publish" my findings of this experiment in my next post in just a few minutes then I really must stop coming back to this page... my work here (as far as I needed it to be) is done...

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It appears that over 1/2 (approx. 60-70%) of the people who responded think that their "MS68-69" 21st century dimes are an investment for the distant future, probably not even their own future but that of their heirs. The other 30% do it for sheer enjoyment, and to heck with the expense. For the latter group, I say: have at it, just make sure you can afford it and that your children/spouses don't grow to resent you for spending more time looking at stupid little metal circles all day than with their families. As someone who has seen the devastation that coin collecting (usually by Dad) can do to a family, I sincerely hope none of you fit this description. My own parents are divorced, and each list my father's OCD coin collecting as the MAIN CULPRIT! I have seen dozens of families go down this tragic road, not just my own.

 

That said, I actually believe that the first, and largest, group, is actually in just as much, if not potentially more, trouble than the second. I cannot emphasize enough how mass production and the inconsistencies of TPGing are creating a 100% artificial market when it come to modern circulation, and especially bullion, issues. Here is some invaluable advice from someone who has a cumulative 3 generations (115 years) of knowledge and experiences in professional numismatics: the chances of your direct heir(s) actually being the one to profit off such a venture are slim to none. First, it would require that these coins actually do become valuable, which numismatic history teaches us that they will not. Have any of you U.S. collectors heard of the "City Commemoratives" issued by Constantine the Great in the 4th century A.D. when he split the Empire between Rome and Constantinople? He ordered millions to be struck, and possibly billions actual were made. You can get a super high grade MS for about $25-40 in 2013. That coin has matured for almost 2 thousand years and is not worth more hardly then the slab fee for any coin today. Secondly, it is rare for a family member to pass down an item, any item, for more than 1 or 2 generations. You would have to somehow guarantee, possibly through some kind of Trust that would survive the eventual collapse of the United States as we know it today (yes we are actually past-due for a civilizational collapse, which many think is already in progress). This is not possible. I cannot tell you how many times one of our older customers passes away, and within a few weeks some kid brings in their fathers/grandfathers collection before it has properly matured demanding whatever he/she can get for it, usually to get money to go to the beach, or worse, drugs. It is so, so sad. We watch a man spend all his money and free time building a collection for his distant heirs, only to have it dumped off for pennies on the dollar by a non-collecting child.

 

So how does this all tie into my dislike of TPG's? I did already answer that but I will address it again b/c a few of you either missed it or chose to miss it. PCGS/NGC, as far as numismatic companies/corporations go, are infants. It is yet to be seen if this slab craze will even survive this decade, let alone become a long-standing institution in our field for centuries to come. Please consider this information seriously even if you don't like my tone or attitude...

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Perhaps MW is right about the tpg's ruining the hobby. It is probably much harder to shaft collectors when they walk through the door with their certified coins.

 

I would imagine he will find a way though.

 

 

"copper toning" is exactly the type of person I have been talking about by the way, please just don't even bring your junk into my shop and I won't have to turn you away... We don't buy that stuff for any price so the uneducated/uninformed insinuation that we would try to rip someone off just shows how little he knows about the hobby he is engaged in... Boooo

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Hi MW,

I'm glad that you found my response to be well thought out, and yes, I have been on both sides of numismatics. I worked at a coin shop for a while, and I'm still a limited vest pocket dealer myself but I really only do this to fund my own collection at this point. And I completely understand your frustrations with the "70 Seekers" as you so wonderfully put it.....I really like that description. I had my troubles with them as well in my experiences on the dealer side of numismatics. And I think that you made the right decision for yourself and your business by not submitting coins for clients any longer.......sometimes it's just not worth it, and if they want to chase those 70's they can join NGC themselves......it's easy enough to do. So I completely understand where you're coming from on many things. I think we've had some very similar experiences.

 

I also see that the money/investment part of numismatics is important to you, and I get that as well. You just approach things a little differently than I and some others here do. And that's great. It's good to have the thoughts and experiences from numismatists from all areas and philosophies of this great hobby/occupation of ours. I'm glad that you've found the answers you were seeking and that I was a part of providing that for you. As someone who aspires to be an educator such as myself, that makes me feel really good when I can help do that for people. And as far as not being popular.....I don't think that's entirely true. Sure, there are some people with thin skin here, and those who cannot or will not understand a point of view that is not their own but I like to think that they are in the minority here and people like that are everywhere in life. But I for one would be happy to see you stick around in whatever capacity suits you. I think you have some valuable perspectives and experiences to share, and I've found this interchange to be thought-provoking and it gave me a reason to reflect on some of my own experiences and thoughts as both a collector and dealer. So I thank you for that.

 

 

"Mohawk" is 2/2 on hitting the nail square on its' head! Brilliant conclusions my friend. I am not being sarcastic, I would love to talk to you about numismatics for hours and hours as we would both

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Why do certain coin collectors think that ALL dealers are out to screw them over? Yes, we are in it to make money, but most of us do so honestly and with integrity. When you go to the grocery market do you think you that the farmers and ranchers are trying to rip you off? Or do you bring in spoiled food and try to sell it to them at retail and then call them crooks b/c they won't buy it from you? I wish pharmacist could prescribe "reality" to such individuals to cure your mental and psychological problems...

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MW

While I have not necessarily appreciated the tone of this thread, I have found it quite interesting to get a dealers perspective on the market today not filtered by the politics you need to practice to buy and sell coins at the point of sale. I also understand that your profit margins are very thin especially on the buy side where a customer expects more than you are willing to pay. Many are the times I have tried to sell a coin to a dealer at a major show, to be told he's not interested. This has always resulted in me selling my coin on E-bay, which more often than not, has resulted in a loss.

 

That said I have learned some important lessons in my many years as a collector. One is what your are alluding to in your comments and which is that all third party graded MS-64's are not created equally. I collect Morgan dollars and among them are many MS-64's. As to eye appeal and the location of contact marks, some look lousy while others look better than some MS-65's. Why the disparity? For one, subjective grading standards have evolved. Secondly, I am also making a judgment based on what appeals to me. Nevertheless, I am buying coins in the market that is and not the one that I might think is ideal. Therefore, the lesson I have learned is to not buy a coin based on the label, but that if my budget is for a 64, to be more discriminate in the coin I choose. This has resulted in me acquiring the coin I wanted that will not need to be sold anytime in the near future.

 

On your point about moderns, we will have to agree to disagree. There is a vast difference between a modern dime graded MS-65 and one graded MS-68. A MS-68 then is a condition rarity that commands a premium based on what the "current" market will bear. While I don't collect moderns myself, I wholeheartedly endorse people like Rick who rather than pay for the already graded coin, saves money by combing through mint sets for those scarce treasures. With him its about the fun in the hunt and the reward of a high graded coin at a cheaper cost.

 

Coins as an investment are a crapshoot that is anyones guess. For instance my reason for collecting is for the joy of it. While I do not want my coins to decrease in value, I don't expect them rise within a short turn around time. This is why it is important that the coin I buy is the one I hold. Likewise, none of us knows whether PCGS or NGC will be in existence at the turn of the decade or if we will even like what is left to us should they come to their demise. What I do know is that the coins will always there when the dust settles. In the end, we all have to buy and sell in the market that is, rather than the market we hope for in an uncertain future.

 

As to family life, which is much more important than all the "stuff" we own, you are correct and I wholeheartedly agree with you. Tomorrow I will celebrate my 31st anniversary with my wife. Furthermore, I have a great relationship with both my adult kids who themselves do not collect coins. Finally, I attribute all this to my Christian faith which puts all this into perspective and gives my life real purpose!

Gary

 

 

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Why do certain coin collectors think that ALL dealers are out to screw them over? Yes, we are in it to make money, but most of us do so honestly and with integrity. When you go to the grocery market do you think you that the farmers and ranchers are trying to rip you off? Or do you bring in spoiled food and try to sell it to them at retail and then call them crooks b/c they won't buy it from you? I wish pharmacist could prescribe "reality" to such individuals to cure your mental and psychological problems...

 

MW,

 

I don't believe that ALL dealers are trying to screw me over. But, if I ever run across one as crass, rude, and obstinately against TPGs as you are it would sure make me wonder why. It is simply not natural for a grown man to come to a message board organized and run by a third party grading company and berate the regular posters and members. Something about that is simply amiss.

 

I think the piece that you don't get is that coins for us collectors are a hobby and a way of enjoying history and art. Yes, for some (or most) of us, the coins also have some investment potential or value -- but at least for me, I collect what I want to collect. It is a hobby first, not a way of life or source of income.

 

A look in the mirror and assessment of your own psychological problems may be in order. To call yourself an "academic" (as you did) is also an insult to all sane and even keeled persons who work in academia. Take a chill-pill, and try to separate yourself from the obvious emotional involvement. If you can't do that, then I dare say you are not going to get very far on these boards. The "ignore" button exists for a reason. ;)

 

Cheers,

-Brandon

 

 

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