Working on my CLAD DIMES and Mint Sets posted by Six Mile Rick
0

42 posts in this topic

3,247 posts

Slowly adding and raising the rank.

 

Friends,

As you know I send in submissions to add to my mint sets for 1970 to date. The dimes have been a challenge as it is sometimes very hard to tell that a Roosevelt is borderline FT and won't make the label. Another tough one is the nickel that looks to be full steps but also falls short of it's label. I will be sending in a group of both next month for dates 1980 to date and have high hopes for those. As I get better I send in less coins and have better grades overall at less of a cost.

My latest venture this month was a hook-up with a friend that does the same and he is much better than I am at finding the best overall pieces. I will be adding his coins to my sets and offering him some of mine as I get better grades. I will be getting 30 or so MS67FT's and a couple MS68FT's today or tomorrow to add to the sets and very happy that we are going to be working together in the distribution of each others extras. This should prove to be a fun and challenging new partnership.

 

Rick

14093.jpg

 

See more journals by Six Mile Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

I had no idea people submitted modern clad dimes for third-party grading... What is the purpose? Encapsulation does not make these coins worth any more than face value, so why spend all that money...?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,870 posts

That is a really good picture of that dime. I have just no choice but to get some good photo equipment here. No question about it.

 

Congrats on your pursuit!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,425 posts
I had no idea people submitted modern clad dimes for third-party grading... What is the purpose? Encapsulation does not make these coins worth any more than face value, so why spend all that money...?

 

Rick submits these for the same reason I do, and that he desires a best of the best set with the highest graded coins available. I have in times past submitted coins worth less than the cost of the submission because they fit a theme or some other purpose in my collection. Besides, have you checked what high grade moderns can go for on E-Bay?

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

...that seems unusual to me, but I am not judging, just curious. I have of course checked Ebay, and I think the operative word in your post is "can." Ebay is also not a realistic market indicator by any means. I figured the huge inconsistencies in prices realized was due to shill bidding or other such nonsense or attempts at "advertising" or trying to lure suckers. Didn't think anyone actually paid those prices for real... you would never see something like a 1970 dime, regardless of grade, even changing hands at a small club show, nevermind a major convention (except for in change at the vending machine I suppose). I guess what I am asking is still "why?" I guess I can understand collecting such coins as raw coins for low-budget collectors, but if split-hair grades (meaning the mostly-artificial differences between lets say a "68" and a "69", or worse the pursuit of the "70," which is a theoretical grade anyway and hence impossible tangibly speaking) are that important to a collector, then I would assume that said collector would not only be able to make such a distinguishment on their own without paying NGC to do so, but that would be the whole point... That could be the only "fun" or "challenge" to collecting modern pocket change as far as I can tell (b/c there is certainly no money to be made in it). In essence, you are paying NGC to collect coins for you, which is... well... I know earlier I said I wouldn't judge, but... odd, if not pointless (to put it kindly). Then, in addition, if one is on a very restricted budget but wants to collect anyway (which I can understand fully), why waste money on plastic and ink when you could be buying better coins with that money. I appreciate your response but I am still having trouble understanding such a mentality. Please keep in mind that I think slabs/TPG are ruining the hobby and I use this service as a dealer only as a sad, but necessary evil in today's market...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
422 posts

I want to chime in. So I will. People collect things for all different reasons. Some like a certain series, some for a quick buck or long term investment. Others just for the challenge. Anyone who says moderns in high grade are not a challenge, they really have not done their research.

 

Whatever MW collects I'm sure at one point they also were considered "Modern". And the guy who put back an extremely high grade coin in 1890 and kept it nice and clean, which is essentially what NGC does for a coin, his family now has something extremely special.

 

I love how some people say I am not judging and then they judge you to death. I judge and I never say that I don't.

 

I can name a few people that have made a great business of submitting high grade coins and selling them at 99 cent starting bids and are having no problems. Shill bidding is possible some times but with serial numbers on every slab, what are the chances that a seller would be able to sell and resell the very same coin again and again if their friend were bidding for them and winning occasionally. There are some dirty guys out there to be sure but they are not the ones in business for years and years.

 

NGC/PCGS are doing the exact opposite of ruining the hobby. They are standardizing the hobby and revealing how many coins everyone thought were perfect are actually flawed or have minute hairlines or a weak strike.

 

I find posts like that to be offensive but unfortunately we all have the right to speak, well type in this instance.

 

I for one am inspired by Rick and his pursuit of greatness.

 

To steal a quote, "Haters gonna Hate". It seems appropriate for this.

 

:banana:

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,737 posts
I had no idea people submitted modern clad dimes for third-party grading... What is the purpose? Encapsulation does not make these coins worth any more than face value, so why spend all that money...?

 

MW, I enjoy the modern mint sets as it shows. Some coins are in such demand and not available!! The dimes for instance --- 2005 to 2010 in MS68FT are like a average of 1 to 3 available (if any). So to complete your set for the clads you will have to get them graded yourself as the owners are not going to give you theirs!! Try getting some graded and if you get any of the years I just mentioned in business strike (or any mint set coin for these 6 years in MS68)--- Not SMS--- I'll buy them from you!! :)

 

Thanks for all the messages guys!!!

Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

Well, I am glad that at least a few out there got some of my subtle (and obviously not so subtle) hints about the current state of affairs in our "hobby." I am an academic, not a OCD-guy, and my "collecting" habits reflect this. I could care less about modern coinage unless it has SOME significance beyond mintage figures or supposed grade rarity. If a coin is designed by the U.S. Mint to be rare (i.e. the 1994 & 1997 Nickels or modern commems), it more akin to a Franklin Mint Elvis Collector's Plate than a numismatic item in my book. And you are really going to have to make a hard sell if you think you can convince me that submitting a item worth 10 cents at a cost of $25-35 is anything but lunacy. It is just a marketing scam, can't you see?

 

Most of what I deal in (I do not collect personally) NGC graders have never even heard of, let alone would they know how to grade such coins. I am sorry for criticizing the collecting habits of others, but I am just frustrated, as are all non-U.S. coin collectors and dealers with NGC/PCGS (as well as hundreds, if not thousands of U.S. collectors/dealers) with the inaccuracies and inconsistencies of TPG's and the willingness of "collectors" who cannot grade/authenticate for themselves to follow so blindly. 5 Steps... 6 Steps... Full Bands... here's my question: if you can see it for yourself, why do you have to pay someone else to say, "Oh yeah, I see it too..."?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

Have any of you considered that the only reason there are only 1-3 slabbed 2010 Dimes out there is because out of the almost 314 million people in the U.S., only 1-3 would consider spending $35 slabbing a dime to be a worth-while venture? Ok, I'm done... I should never have wasted my time with this but I was stuck inside all day b/c I hurt my back, and in a rather foul mood, otherwise I'd be out living my life...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

Yeah, I guess I was "hating" as you call it... Do you think an Alex Rodriguez Rookie card in Mint state will be worth the same as a Babe Ruth or Jackie Robinson Rookie card in the same grade in 200 years? How about 400? No, simple answer to the question, "why?" Mass production, my friend. A 2013 NGC MS69FT clad dime will not be an investment even for "Rick's" great, great, great, great grandchildren. As he himself says and hopefully understands, it is what he collects and likes personally, which is great, I just still don't understand the fascination with paying all that money for slabbing, which despite all of your opinions, no one has actually addressed. Collecting modern is great... keep the hobby going... just save your slabbing money for better coins. NGC doesn't deserve the credit they are taking from you...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
308 posts

Rick,

 

I, like Gary, say GO FOR IT! Don't let the comments of one individual change your interests or slow you down. MANY people still collect the modern coins of all denominations. You are not wasting your time or money. Some of these coins fetch premium pricing especially where the mintage/populations are very low. Some of our collectors on this site just like older or "never heard of" coins. If people didn't collect those years before our "modern" coinage, they wouldn't be as popular now. Like I always try to tell myself, the coins we call old today were modern coins at one time. Today's modern coins will be "OLD" one day themselves and we will have new modern coins.

 

Good luck in all your pursuits!!!

 

Michael

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,737 posts
Have any of you considered that the only reason there are only 1-3 slabbed 2010 Dimes out there is because out of the almost 314 million people in the U.S., only 1-3 would consider spending $35 slabbing a dime to be a worth-while venture? Ok, I'm done... I should never have wasted my time with this but I was stuck inside all day b/c I hurt my back, and in a rather foul mood, otherwise I'd be out living my life...

 

HMMM--- How many people do you think actually saved U S mint rolls for the 2010 dimes ???

That is the only place you are going to find a business strike MS68FT as there are no business strike mint sets 2005 to 2010.

That is a rarity in the future as I see it and if you don't grasp this rarity well.... ???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
417 posts
Well, I am glad that at least a few out there got some of my subtle (and obviously not so subtle) hints about the current state of affairs in our "hobby." I am an academic, not a OCD-guy, and my "collecting" habits reflect this. I could care less about modern coinage unless it has SOME significance beyond mintage figures or supposed grade rarity. If a coin is designed by the U.S. Mint to be rare (i.e. the 1994 & 1997 Nickels or modern commems), it more akin to a Franklin Mint Elvis Collector's Plate than a numismatic item in my book. And you are really going to have to make a hard sell if you think you can convince me that submitting a item worth 10 cents at a cost of $25-35 is anything but lunacy. It is just a marketing scam, can't you see?

 

Most of what I deal in (I do not collect personally) NGC graders have never even heard of, let alone would they know how to grade such coins. I am sorry for criticizing the collecting habits of others, but I am just frustrated, as are all non-U.S. coin collectors and dealers with NGC/PCGS (as well as hundreds, if not thousands of U.S. collectors/dealers) with the inaccuracies and inconsistencies of TPG's and the willingness of "collectors" who cannot grade/authenticate for themselves to follow so blindly. 5 Steps... 6 Steps... Full Bands... here's my question: if you can see it for yourself, why do you have to pay someone else to say, "Oh yeah, I see it too..."?

 

I'll have to comment on this one - as you say you are a dealer. If you are, then you would be aware that the Sheldon Scale and interpretation imparted by the TPG's has seriously changed the hobby. I'm much better educated by validating my skill set as a non-professional grader, which makes me and everyone else that does this much better educated. I can tell you since I've been submitting coins to TPG's it has seriously changed my outlook on coins to buy. I don't follow anyone blindly and review every coin I buy meticulously. I can tell you I won't buy about 10-15% of PCGS or NGC coins, 30%+ of ANACS coins and 50% of ICG coins and almost none of any other graders. Subsequently, I won't buy probably 90% of the raw coins in the marketplace for my personal collection.

 

So, my question is why you wouldn't use this as the tool that it is to improve a skill set and better educate yourself? As you stated in a post - the 70 grade is theoretical and so is a "perfect" grading company. It doesn't exist. No one posting in this chain is perfect and therefore there would be anomalies between us all. What the TPG's have done is lessen the overall impact of the anomalies.

 

Assume that an MS 67 FT business strike dime is 1 in 1,000 - not super rare, to your point, but I can slab for $20 or less - sell it for $25. Assume I miss 50% of the coins I grade and sell them at cost or less I'll still make money. I can tell you that on average I make 12% on the coins I sell, which includes taking a loss on some and making a better margin on others. Where else can I put my money, make 12% and have hours of fun "working" in the hobby I love.

 

Todd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,737 posts

Hey Todd ------ Ahh The Plot Thickens. :)

 

You only average out at 12% ---- Gees I got you beat there --- I'd say 15%+/- :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

Talk about a thickening plot... Have any of you ever owned or worked in a coin shop? I would pay you good money to deal with all the people who come into the shop with boxes full of U.S. Mint/Proof sets they inherited (or stole) from their parents/grandparents, thinking it was going to fund their trip to Tahiti or pay off their mortgage. We pay a tiny % over face value for them b/c that is all we can sell them for because that is all they are "worth." Then we get called crooks. We did not charge exuberant prices for these pieces of junk when they came out, nor did we "guarantee" they would increase in value exponentially. The U.S. government did that via its' outlet the U.S. Mint. Now PCGS/NGC are doing the same thing... Making guarantees they couldn't possibly back up. Even the oldest TPG company has only been around for 3-4 decades and they have since been discredited. When PCGS first came out they nearly folded that same year b/c of horrendous errors in judgement and conflict of interest issues. Now they are on top... why? Because uneducated collectors pay them so much money they can afford to market themselves so well and trick the masses. For those of you limited to U.S. collecting, do you know what PCGS did about a year ago with world coin submissions? If you did, and also knew the reason why they did, you would never trust them again. I will never submit to PCGS again, so I switched over to NGC, which is actually much better, but still not so great. I will probably cancel my membership when it expires this year. The point I am getting to is this: please don't submit coins that are worthless. Save your money, your grandchildren will thank you. ...And just in case you are wondering I am a third-generation numismatist and the shop I own now has been in business for 50 years this year! We are not crooks, but honest, hard-working people. Be grateful for the advice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

Sorry Todd, but I just couldn't disagree with you more, on just about all of your talking points. I am obviously aware of the Sheldon scale(I did directly reference it...) and how it has changed the hobby, it is NGC's interpretation of it that I am criticizing. How can you not understand that? And I never said I don't use "this" as an educational tool. I obviously do, or else I wouldn't be typing and you wouldn't be responding

Anyway, if it works for you, then I guess you should be proud of your 12% profit margin, I cannot afford to operate on anything less than 35%, I average 45-50% (minus overhead, which is actually minimal at this point)... Thank you all for validating my point... Good night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,737 posts

MW,

When you get a boatload of mint sets you want to sell at 10% under dealers buy price I will be happy to accommodate you with an offer!!!

Shoot me a message anytime. :)

 

 

Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
422 posts

This board is clearly marked "Collectors Society". As you clearly have declared yourself not a collector, then I am curious why you are on these boards raining on people's parades. Your posts are mean spirited and just plain not helpful. You meant to go to the "Dealers Society" website. :banana:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts
This board is clearly marked "Collectors Society". As you clearly have declared yourself not a collector, then I am curious why you are on these boards raining on people's parades. Your posts are mean spirited and just plain not helpful. You meant to go to the "Dealers Society" website. :banana:

 

 

Correct, I will not be returning to this message board... not very interesting anyway...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts
MW,

When you get a boatload of mint sets you want to sell at 10% under dealers buy price I will be happy to accommodate you with an offer!!!

Shoot me a message anytime. :)

 

 

Rick

 

 

 

Ok Rick, just for you...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts
This board is clearly marked "Collectors Society". As you clearly have declared yourself not a collector, then I am curious why you are on these boards raining on people's parades. Your posts are mean spirited and just plain not helpful. You meant to go to the "Dealers Society" website. :banana:

 

 

 

 

To be honest Wells, and if you read thoroughly, I actually am trying to help people... in the long run, and for their children and their children's childrens' sake. People will collect what they want, I can't stop that, nor do I want to or care to. JUST DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY ON PLASTIC AND INK IF WHAT YOU COLLECT IS COINS!!!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5,211 posts
I had no idea people submitted modern clad dimes for third-party grading... What is the purpose? Encapsulation does not make these coins worth any more than face value, so why spend all that money...?

 

Rick submits these for the same reason I do, and that he desires a best of the best set with the highest graded coins available. I have in times past submitted coins worth less than the cost of the submission because they fit a theme or some other purpose in my collection. Besides, have you checked what high grade moderns can go for on E-Bay?

Gary

well put theres nothing wrong with that either. its nice to see some nice stuff like that once and a while as well :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,425 posts

The following is only my opinion to two points MV has made. One, that third party graders have done harm to the hobby, and two that he enters this discussion as a dealer making his living through a brick and mortar coin shop. First, I do not begrudge a person who makes a living by selling coins to profit from them. Second, I have been a collector for more than 40 years and have witnessed the evolution of the market. Change and progress, although at times less personal, will occur, and if we don't adapt, we will be left behind.

 

In the past I submitted my want list to my local dealer and he located the coins for me. Now I can dial up an 1893-S Morgan Dollar at any time on E-Bay without waiting for a dealer to locate one. Additionally, the dealer to keep your business educated you at the point of sale. I had a friend who bought a 1909-S VDB Lincoln Cent from a coin shop. At the point of sale the dealer showed him the diagnostics on his coin to determine that it was genuine. As a collector who has witnessed change, face to face interaction is what I miss the most. In its place these very boards and blogs have helped to fill that void. It was through these boards I have learned the diagnostics of the 93-S Morgan to determine that my NGC graded VG-10 93-S which I purchased on E-Bay from a dealers web site is genuine .

 

As to third-party graders, Chinese counterfeits are by far much more harmful to the hobby than either NGC and PCGS combined. In fact these two company which are also in business to make a profit are through the certification process protecting the hobby from these harmful fakes. Anything they certify as genuine is protecting the collector from financial loss by their guarantee. This brings security and confidence to the market place that is worth a premium to the submitter.

 

When it comes to moderns MV is correct in that the mintages will prohibit the value of the coin to increases significantly UNLESS that coin is a condition rarity. For instance, if Rick was to crack out his dime, MV is correct in that it is only worth 10 cents. However, lets say out of 140 million dimes there are only 100 graded as high as MS-67 you have something not every dime collector could have driving the price higher. This is possible only because PCGS and NGC are respected in the market place having their grades assigned by professional numismatists with their guarantee to the collecting community of grade.

 

Finally, from the perspective of a collector of both US and world coins the NGC Registry brought about by technology and change, has SIGNIFICANTLY increased my knowledge and enjoyment of the hobby. In fact were it not for the registry I may not be a collector of world coins today. The competitive nature of the registry is a factor in the drive for high grade moderns. In fact MV might see it as a means to extract more money from the collector. I choose to see it as a means to preserve a numismatic legacy

Gary

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

I promised myself I wouldn't look back at this link after yesterday's experiment but I couldn't resist! One cannot simply create a monster and then turn one's back on it letting it tromp through the city... Gary has made an excellent point about Chinese counterfeits... This, unfortunately, is exactly what I was hinting about earlier... PCGS/NGC are not the experts they claim to be when it comes to counterfeit detection, and PCGS stands by that.... GO SECURE PLUS!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,866 posts

MW,

First off, like you, I have a big interest in non-US coins......my sets on here will show that. I'd say I'm 70% non-US and 30% US with what I do. And I understand where you're coming from on some of what you wrote, particularly about the financial aspects of collecting and sending coins off to be graded. Many people in this hobby are into it for financial reasons, and I understand that as well and as someone who has worked in a coin shop and has experience in dealing as you do, I can also understand how you've formed these thoughts over the years. It is tough to tell people day in and day out that their boxes of 1970's and 1980's US Proof Sets aren't worth much over the face value of the coins contained within, and it does wear on you.

 

But........have you ever thought about the people who are into numismatics for non-financial reasons? I fall into that category a lot of the time. I've sent everything from Ottoman Empire gold, key dates and mint visit issues and Third Reich Reichskreditkassen coins to 1970's and 1980's Chilean Libertad 5 and 10 Pesos off to be graded and everything in-between on the value scale, all for one main reason: I want to include them in my sets and share them on here. I know that I'll never get my money back out of the Chilean Libertad coins, but that doesn't matter to me that much. I know that going into the transaction to grade them. But they're a set that I enjoy and it makes me happy to collect them. And ultimately, in my humble opinion, that's the most important thing to factor in for the collector. If it makes Rick happy to grade his US Modern issues, who are we to tell him that it's wrong or that he shouldn't do it? From what I've read from Rick, collecting and grading those issues DOES make him happy. So I say keep going Rick, keep going as long as its fun and enjoyable for you to do so. And I also say that to everyone on here. We all collect different things, and some of what each of us does on here may not make sense to everyone. I personally don't get the Silver Eagle craze that seems to be going on over the last few years. But I can understand that they make the people who collect them happy, and they have fun doing it. It's their money and time, and they can spend it how they wish. But, MW, you said you're not a collector yourself, only a dealer. So maybe the mindset of collectors on some of this may not make sense to you sometimes. As a dealer only, money would be what is important to you and I completely get that. But please try to understand that there are many of us in the collecting side of numismatics that don't place the money aspect of it on the same level of priority as you do. We may not always understand one another on here, but we should respect one another regardless. There is no bad way to participate in numismatics, only what works for the individual participant. I think if we all kept this in mind when interacting with one another, things like this thread could be avoided. To Rick and everyone else, keep on keeping on as long as what you're doing makes you happy. You should only stop if its not fun anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,737 posts

WM,

Thanks for sitting in for the full set of replies. There has been much expertise reading in all the posts and a fun read to boot. I got a few "NEW MODERNS" this morning and added them to my sets in member -- Six Mile Rick's Keepers. All the coins that were upgraded went to my sales page -- Six Mile Rick. You can view all I have with a simple click below on the two banners!! :)

BTW---- Yes Sir, I do truly enjoy the moderns!!!

 

Rick

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts
WM,

Thanks for sitting in for the full set of replies. There has been much expertise reading in all the posts and a fun read to boot. I got a few "NEW MODERNS" this morning and added them to my sets in member -- Six Mile Rick's Keepers. All the coins that were upgraded went to my sales page -- Six Mile Rick. You can view all I have with a simple click below on the two banners!! :)

BTW---- Yes Sir, I do truly enjoy the moderns!!!

 

Rick

 

No problem Rick, and I am sincerely glad you are happy with your collecting... I'll be totally honest: I still don't get it but that is understandable as I don't even really like older U.S. coinage (coppers not included)... just not my thing. But, if everyone collected the same thing, how boring would that be, right? I hope you understand I never meant to single you out or criticize you directly. I am glad that you are intelligent enough to see what I was up too, I wanted this to be a learning experience not only for myself, but others as well. My tactics obviously were bound to a few people off, but quite frankly, I was looking for an emotional response, not just people rattling offf numbers and statistics... I also chose this forum b/c I was hoping to hear responses from more informed collectors. I have started similar threads on sites like Ebay for the same purpose, but most of the responses I got were sad or didn't even make many sense. This experience was certainly significantly more intellectual. Good night!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 posts

"Mohawk" gets the award for most well-thought-out response. Well done... you must have been on both sides of numismatics (collector vs. dealer) at some point in your life. So, honest answer to your rhetorical question: No. Even way back when I collected coins for "fun" as a kid it was still about money... that is after all what I was literally collecting in my mind. Never got into Beanie Babies or Pogs or Baseball cards b/c there is/was clearly no money in it. I can obviously appreciate that many collectors could care less about the money side of it (many of these people are my clientele after all...), but you are again correct: I have had enough with the "70 seekers" as I have dubbed them, who make going to work every day a living h-e-double hockey sticks. They complain for hours to me as if I was the NGC grader who didn't give them what they wanted when they asked me to submit for them (even when I implore them not to do so). I no longer even am willing to provide this service to my customers across the board any more b/c the ones I am talking about are so irrational I can't even get through to them and I am not making any money, just ulcers and headaches... That stinks for my serious collector clients who request this service but I cannot discriminate so I just won't do it for anyone anymore. Now, that said, I know now that "Rick" is not one of these nuts, but I was just trying to get inside the head of someone who collects in a similar, yet more refined, manner... I think I have finally found my answers and I thank you all, even though I know I am not going to be very popular around here should I choose to remain...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
0