Shutter causing a slight shake when it's released.

[morganguru]

I just picked up a D3100 on the cheap from a pawnshop. I'm using the supplied 18-55 that cam with the kit and noticed that when using the timer, at the moment the shutter is released there's a bit a shake caused by the shutter. I'm using a pretty sturdy tripod and have determined that this is causing a bit of blur in the final results. Would a heavy copy stand eliminate this? Tried some pics with the VR on and doesn't seem to make much difference. Actually hitting the shutter with my finger works better. Do the 3100's have clunky shutters? The shutter count was at 3899 when purchased and the cam looks barely used going by the cosmetics. Thanks

[Deerefan8420]

I have a D3100 and had the same troubles that you are having. From what I understand, the vibration is caused by the mirror flipping up in order to take the picture. To cut that vibration down, try using the mirror lock-up feature. I found that it helped out quite a bit when shooting through the Live View feature. If you can, it's best to shoot through the normal viewfinder and you shouldn't have that vibration.

 

Another option is for a remote shutter release. That's what I have on my setup now. I also have my camera tethered to my TV through an HDMI cable so I can see a larger image while focusing. Once I get everything set, I let the 30 second timer run out for the live view and then I shoot my picture.

 

Your users manual should have the information needed to set the mirror lock. That should help quite a bit.

[morganguru]

Awesome, I read about this but really didn't understand what the advantage was in locking it up. I was under the impression it was for cleaning? At least I know the camera is functioning normally. I don't use the live view just set my parameters and shoot. Thanks for the info. One more thing do I have to lock it up every time I shoot? I'm thinking yes. Thanks,

Scott

[Deerefan8420]

According to the way I read the manual, you should only have to do the mirror lock-up when you forst turn the camera on. From then on, it should be locked-up. But I'm not sure since I've never really used that feature all that much. Are you using a 2 second delay or a 10 second delay for your shutter?

[morganguru]

1/320, f5.3, ISO 100, 46MM

 

 

1/250, f8.0, ISO 100, 46MM

 

 

I'm having better luck hitting the shutter with my finger, I know that sounds crazy, but it seems there's less shake. Also don't forget I'm using the bottom of the line 18-55 that came with the kit. I think the second pic came out sharper.

 

EDIT: I'm not happy with either image, your talking ASE's the easiest to shoot. They have the amateur look. Right now my cheapo FUJI P&S takes much better images. I'm hoping better glass will do the trick.

[Deerefan8420]

You are definitely on the right track! The second picture is a little sharper than the first, but still not quite there. A good macro lens will help improve your images greatly. You may also look into getting a remote shutter release. You can find them on Amazon all day long. I got a wireless remote and it was $15-$20 I believe. I did not buy a Nikon Macro lens but instead, I picked up a 90mm Tamron f2.8 1:1 macro lens. For $400 shipped, it wasn't a bad deal. I do intend on upgrading very soon though.

[morganguru]

I've already considered a remote shutter, and I know there's no replacement for good glass. The 90mm Tamron f2.8 will work great for Morgans and halves right?

[PennyGuy]

You're on the right track. Look for a used Nikkor AF Micro, 60mm F 2.8 lense. I can't remember what I paid used but they are available. You might want to experiment with F11 and F16 settings as well, the extra depth of field should help some. That with mirror lockup and a remote RF shutter trip you should see improvement.

[RWB]

Photographers used to call your problem “mirror slap.” With shutter speeds greater than 1/30 sec, it can become a problem. Mirror lock-up is good. The actual shutter/diaphragm mechanism has a certain amount of vibration, also. This comes from mechanical linkages in the shutter and in the lens that have to time correctly to make the exposure. One way to further reduce vibration is to use the lens on manual and stop down to the desired f-number before tripping the shutter. Another way to reduce vibration is to drape the camera body with a bag of lead shot – the extra mass will absorb some of the mechanical energy. (OK---not really “absorb,” but let’s not get too technical.)

[morganguru]

I think I'm seeing some improvement. This one shot at 1/25, f18, ISO 100, 45mm. I used the sharpen horizontally and vertically feature and a tad of contrast.

 

[RWB]

Software "sharpening" alters the image data but does not increase optical sharpness or resolution.

[morganguru]

<<Software "sharpening" alters the image data but does not increase optical sharpness or resolution. >>

 

I see, sorta like horsepower. You can add exhaust, high flow air filter and advance the timing, but you won't realize real gain, until you increase fuel and air, i.e heads, larger injectors, larger fuel pump, cam etc. I'm determined to get the most out of my low quality kit 18-55 lens I'll be getting a lens soon, hopefully within the next two weeks. For the mean time it will have to do.

 

Both images shot at 1/60, f16, ISO 100, 48mm, center weighted, exposure compensation 0.0, 2 CFL's at 10 n 2 close to the lens, about 16" above the coin.

 

[RWB]

However, many digital images benefit from careful use of unsharp mask and other methods of increasing apparent sharpness.

[jom]

Use the time delay to avoid jitter. If it's the shutter itself I've never had a problem.

 

jom

[rmpsrpms]

You don't need or generally want to use mirror lock. Use Live View instead. It works the same to reduce mirror slap, ie it holds the mirror up during exposure. Plus, you can view the image live on your PC using ControlMyNikon software (I think it's $20 now) and then remote trigger your shutter using your mouse after you zoom in and get the focus just right.

 

Your Nikon also will have a little bit of "shutter shake" due to the action of the shutter first curtain, but that shake is far less than the "mirror slap", so get rid of the mirror slap first. Neither of these can be helped very much by rigid mounting or other methods since the vibration is caused by the camera itself and is generally contained within the camera body.

 

The sequence for Nikons in Live View is:

Trigger Shutter

Shutter second curtain closes (causes a little vibration)

Shutter first curtain opens (causes a little vibration, starts exposure)

Shutter second curtain closes (ends exposure)

Mirror drops

Mirror raises

Shutter first curtain opens

Live View Screen updates

 

In normal mode, viewing through viewfinder:

Trigger Shutter

Mirror raises (causing a fair amount of vibration)

Shutter first curtain opens (causes a little more vibration, exposure begins)

Shutter second curtain closes (ends exposure)

Mirror drops

 

Ray

[morganguru]

Thanks Ray and everyone for the info. Does this shutter shake occur with higher end Nikons? Cannons? Is there hope for my 3100 with a good macro lens or belows setup?

[mikew148]

Thanks Ray and everyone for the info. Does this shutter shake occur with higher end Nikons? Cannons? Is there hope for my 3100 with a good macro lens or belows setup?

 

I have a D3100 and a really solid bellows system and I have to work pretty hard to get clear images. I'm in the process of buying a Canon as, in a thread that's running parallel to this one, Ray mentioned Canon addressing shutter shake with something called EFSC.

 

I'll be posting some comparison images within a week or so and will be looking forward to getting some feedback on them.

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

Here is a comparison montage I did about 18mos ago comparing my D7000 vs T2i in both normal and Live View mode. This is pixel-level detail of the "8" in the date of an 1883-CC Morgan Dollar...Ray

 

[rmpsrpms]

Thanks Ray and everyone for the info. Does this shutter shake occur with higher end Nikons? Cannons? Is there hope for my 3100 with a good macro lens or belows setup?

 

I have a D3100 and a really solid bellows system and I have to work pretty hard to get clear images. I'm in the process of buying a Canon as, in a thread that's running parallel to this one, Ray mentioned Canon addressing shutter shake with something called EFSC.

 

I'll be posting some comparison images within a week or so and will be looking forward to getting some feedback on them.

 

 

The Canon system is called their "quiet mode" and can be invoked in normal shooting and is always active in live view mode. The shots I posted above are with quiet mode on. In quiet mode, the camera uses EFSC (Electronic First Shutter Curtain) as apparently the physical action of the first shutter curtain is very noisy! The sequence in live view mode for canons goes like this...

 

Trigger shutter release

Electronically-extinguish pixel sites sequentially across the sensor

Start exposure on each site after it is extinguished

Second shutter curtain closes (end of exposure)

Mirror down

Mirror up

open first shutter curtain

refresh live view screen

 

The electronic extinguishing of the sensors, rather than physically blocking them with the first shutter curtain, eliminates the physical action of the shutter at the beginning of the exposure, and thus eliminates the vibration the shutter causes when it is cycled.

 

Ray

 

[Coindude]

Ray, I have to say I personally like the T2i better on both accounts. I've never seen this comparison before so thanks for posting.

[RWB]

Nice comparison photos! Is that an omega on the far right?

[morganguru]

Thanks again for all the info Ray. I'm still not giving up on my D3100. When I press the shutter button with my finger the shake is very minimal, if anything. It's only when I use the timer, it shakes a bit, then a half a second later the image is taken. Looking at you bellows setup on Ebay, it appears I would be better off with that versus a macro lens.

[morganguru]

1/40, f13, iso100, exposure comp +0.3, 52mm using live view and 2 second timer. I watched the cam and there was no movement using live view. So maybe there's hope for my 3100. I also added a bit of contrast and sharpening. Overall not bad for the kit lens.

 

 

 

[rmpsrpms]

Those look really good.

 

Note that the pics I showed were 100% crops. When you downsize the image for web presentation, you are reducing the effect by whatever amount you downsize. Let's say you start with a 5000 pixel wide image, and dowsize to a 500 pixel wide image. This is a 10x downsize, and that will virtually eliminate most if not all the slapping or shaking problems. At that point, if you are still blurry, it's because you are not focused, or you have a tremendous problem with vibration. Your shots above show that this is not the case! By the way, it looks like you changed over to a ringlight, is that right?

[rmpsrpms]

Nice comparison photos! Is that an omega on the far right?

 

Sure looks like one, doesn't it? Maybe there are lots more omega counterfeits out there than have been identified! I have never personally examined one of those but it is certainly feasible that he did more than gold...

[morganguru]

<<Your shots above show that this is not the case! By the way, it looks like you changed over to a ringlight, is that right? >>

 

Same lighting, two lights at 10 n 2 and one at 12 o'clock. The live view eliminated all the shaking. Keep in mind these were taken with the kit lens 18-55. Ray do you have any lenses for sale? I shoot mostly Morgans and halves, I'm thinking a 80mm macro 1:1 should be sufficient. I think this cam with the right glass will produce professional images like yours or Robec's (Bob).

[rmpsrpms]

The live view eliminated all the shaking. Keep in mind these were taken with the kit lens 18-55. Ray do you have any lenses for sale? I shoot mostly Morgans and halves, I'm thinking a 80mm macro 1:1 should be sufficient. I think this cam with the right glass will produce professional images like yours or Robec's (Bob).

 

So it looks like most of the problem was mirror slap. Live View is a must for these shots!

 

I have some 75mm f/4 Apo Rodagon-D 1:1 (75ARD1) lenses available, both with fixed aperture and variable aperture versions. These are the lenses I use (and I believe Bob uses) and they give very good results. If you're doing mostly Dollars, the variable aperture version (set to f/5.6 or f/8) is preferred. But you'll need more than just the lens, as these don't have facilities for focusing, so you would need a bellows and adapters as well.

 

Since you will be shooting mostly Dollars, another good other option is a 105mm Micro-Nikkor (manual version). The AIS versions will work fine on your D3100, and natively give 1:2 magnification, which will pretty much fill the sensor with a Half Dollar. If you want to shoot smaller coins you can add a PN-11 extension, which conveniently has a tripod/copy stand mount as well. Either f/4 or f/2.8 are fine, as you'll stop to f/5.6 or smaller anyway. These will cost you about the same as a 75ARD1, and you don't need bellows or adapters. If you were mostly shooting smaller coins, I'd encourage you to get the 75ARD1, but for larger coins the 105Micro will work just as well.

 

For reference, here is what I'm talking about...

 

AIS f/4

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-Micro-NIKKOR-Ai-s-AIS-105mm-F-4-1-4-Excellent-/330970645910?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item4d0f634596

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Nikon-Micro-Nikkor-AIs-105mm-f-4-0-lens-/330973842647?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item4d0f940cd7

 

AIS f/2.8

http://www.ebay.com/itm/NIKON-AI-S-Micro-NIKKOR-105mm-f-2-8-Exc-/271250043978?pt=Camera_Lenses&hash=item3f27c3344a

[mikew148]

 

The live view eliminated all the shaking.

 

Have you found a way to see live view on a separate screen, before the shot is taken? Nothing I've tried works with the D3100. I can shoot a picture and then see it - but I was looking for a way to dial the pics in on a larger screen, through live view, before taking the shot.

 

Ive seen many frustrated D3100 users posting on you-tube and Nikon blogs about the D3100, live view, not functioning, as most other Nikon models do, before the shot is taken

 

I'm hoping you've found a solution, I've tried about 10 different software packages that claim to work but don't. 2 of them I paid for and after talking to their support team was refunded the money with an explanation of "sorry the D3100 is not supported for true live view".

 

I have a friend with a D5100. He can plug his camera into my TV with a mini HDMI cable, turn on live view and the picture comes up live on the screen. When I try it with my D3100 - the live view switch will not even function. As soon as I remove the cable the live view will operate fine.

 

One of the blogs had this posted - "Most tethering softwares that list support for Nikon cameras do not include the D3xxx series. Most of the Dx, Dxx, and some of the D7xxx and D5xxx bodies are at least partially supported. The D3100's firmware or hardware may limit this capability.

[Deerefan8420]

 

The live view eliminated all the shaking.

 

Have you found a way to see live view on a separate screen, before the shot is taken? Nothing I've tried works with the D3100. I can shoot a picture and then see it - but I was looking for a way to dial the pics in on a larger screen, through live view, before taking the shot.

 

Ive seen many frustrated D3100 users posting on you-tube and Nikon blogs about the D3100, live view, not functioning, as most other Nikon models do, before the shot is taken

 

I'm hoping you've found a solution, I've tried about 10 different software packages that claim to work but don't. 2 of them I paid for and after talking to their support team was refunded the money with an explanation of "sorry the D3100 is not supported for true live view".

 

I have a friend with a D5100. He can plug his camera into my TV with a mini HDMI cable, turn on live view and the picture comes up live on the screen. When I try it with my D3100 - the live view switch will not even function. As soon as I remove the cable the live view will operate fine.

 

Mike, I have my D3100 setup where I can see the live view through an HDMI cable to my TV. And I never had any troubles. You may check some of your settings. I didn't have to make any changes with my settings, other than changing the 720p output to full 1080p. I know the D3100 is capable of doing it as that is the way that I shoot my photos now.

[mikew148]

 

The live view eliminated all the shaking.

 

Have you found a way to see live view on a separate screen, before the shot is taken? Nothing I've tried works with the D3100. I can shoot a picture and then see it - but I was looking for a way to dial the pics in on a larger screen, through live view, before taking the shot.

 

Ive seen many frustrated D3100 users posting on you-tube and Nikon blogs about the D3100, live view, not functioning, as most other Nikon models do, before the shot is taken

 

I'm hoping you've found a solution, I've tried about 10 different software packages that claim to work but don't. 2 of them I paid for and after talking to their support team was refunded the money with an explanation of "sorry the D3100 is not supported for true live view".

 

I have a friend with a D5100. He can plug his camera into my TV with a mini HDMI cable, turn on live view and the picture comes up live on the screen. When I try it with my D3100 - the live view switch will not even function. As soon as I remove the cable the live view will operate fine.

 

Mike, I have my D3100 setup where I can see the live view through an HDMI cable to my TV. And I never had any troubles. You may check some of your settings. I didn't have to make any changes with my settings, other than changing the 720p output to full 1080p. I know the D3100 is capable of doing it as that is the way that I shoot my photos now.

 

I can't believe it! After all of the software trials and blog conversations it's as simple as resetting my HDMI settings! When you go to the HDMI settings there are two items in the menu. One is for the picture quality, 720p 1080p etc. The other item says "device control". My camera was set to "on". When I switch it to "off", the live view comes up on the TV. I tried it a couple of times to make sure this was the setting that made live view possible on the TV.

 

Thanks Deerefan8420