This REALLY Bugs Me!
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An Ebay seller trying to take advantage of an NGC "clerical error".

 

As an 8 reales collector, I frequently browse the Ebay listings for these coins. Several months ago I saw a NGC certified 1783 Mo FM listed. Now, for those in the know, this is the rarest of the series and no graded examples are in NGC's or PCGS's census. The photos clearly shows severe seawater damage over the assayers initials. I might admit that the second initial looks more like an "M" than an "F" but it would be easy to fake given the overall damage in the area. It's been relisted several times and is currently listed. Fortunately, nobody has bought it.

 

Here are two of the listing's photos. I'm certain it's a clerical error. What do you think?

13616.jpg

 

See more journals by jgenn

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At least the seller provided high resolution images of the coin -- here's the reverse.

 

$(KGrHqMOKpIFGLw49p3RBRkSg-7p5Q~~60_57.JPG

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Are you suggesting there were no FM's on the El Cazador therefore there is no way this could be a FM?

 

Just curious.

 

 

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Hi wdrob, No, I'm not suggesting that there were none -- just that a grader should assume that a coin with so much damage to the assayers initials would be the much more common type. ~Jack

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I agree 100%. I took that picture and rotated it and studied it and to be honest I can't see anything that would lead one to the conclusion that it is a FM unless 1.) like you said it was a clerical error that this individual is going to try to exploit 2.) or there is some other ways of determining an FM other than the FM it's self.

 

I even tried to go Negative in the viewing of the picture and still can't even see what you see. I was just curios if there was FM's on board since I was under the impression prior that there were indeed. That example leaves allot to be desired in my opinion.

 

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Also note that NGC did not certify that this is from the El Cazador. It could be from any type of saltwater damage.

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True. I noticed that as well. Maybe it was not from that wreck at all.

 

I have a nice FF and wish it was an FM. It has not been graded though. Just authenticated Genuine.

 

I guess you have to send it back through to get a slab like that one with the grading guidelines noted here

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Simply send an e-mail to NGC explaining the clerical error of this coin. They will investigate and if necessary change the information they hold in their database. If this coin is for sale on EBAY they will contact the seller about the clerical error.

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When I first saw this coin on Ebay I checked its certification and used the link to email ConsumerAwareness@ngccoin.com about my concerns. The certification info has not changed and the seller has reposted this coin two or three times since so I don't think my opinion had any impact.

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I'm not familiar with this coin, so can you help? I'm interested in learning. Where should we be looking for the "FM" on the reverse? Also, can you share a little information on the importance of this?

 

Thanks in advance.

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wdrob made a nice journal entry on this coin here: http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/JournalDetail.aspx?JournalEntryID=13462

 

The 1783 Mo FF eight reales was the most common coin found in the El Cazador shipwreck of 1784 as these had just been minted in Mexico City. The assayers for most of the mintage were Francisco de la Peña and Francisco Arance Cobos, thus the initials FF. The extremely rare variety has the initials FM for Francisco Arance y Cobos and Mariano Rodríguez.

 

The initials appear on the reverse and in the normal orientation at 10:00 along the rim. The enlarged picture I posted is rotated by 180 degrees so they would appear at 4:00 but you can see that the coin is quite damaged in this area.

 

I have more info on eight reales coins of this type in my Amazing 8s custom set. Just click thru my banner to view.

 

 

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I believe that the FM versus the FF is the assayers initials and the FM tends to be much more scarce in some years and for that reason they command a better premium.

 

Here is a link to the type coin and prices for a number of years.

 

And another link to the type coin and prices for a number of years.

 

That particular coin was used in the early years for this countries growth as currency and the 8 Reales is often referred to pieces of eight since people would cut them up into pie shaped sections equaling 8 total. It is often considered the first silver dollar in American History.

 

A google search would probably yield much more accurate and informative historical facts about these types of coins and it's relationship to early Colonial America.

Edited by wdrob

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Ahhh. Looks like jgenn beat me to it. :)

 

(thumbs u

 

 

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Thank you both for the responses. I'll be sure to read your journals and registry entries. I appreciate your help.

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Given the hand-punched nature of these dies, it should be trivial to match the rest of the details to a known specimen. I don't have the required reference, but someone who does could probably attribute this fairly quickly and easily. Actually seeing the initials would not even be required.

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Yeah that is somewhat the way I was thinking. There must be some other way to attribute to that particular assay other than the FM being present.

 

I was never interested in any of this stuff until you presented that one ray and cap coin in Guess a grade that I became more interested in what the significance was in that particular coin as well as others of the time period.

 

It was either that or go to coin talk like you told me too. :grin:

 

 

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