a 70?

[wdrob]

There are some areas, just a couple, on the Reverse Proof and the UC that have me concerned and I am thinking that I would be wasting my time trying to get a 70 out of these but since you folks are more experienced with what gets through and what does not I thought you might be able to offer some insight into sending these in or just holding onto the set in the original packaging.

 

None of these areas jump out at you under the naked eye and I have to use a 5x loupe to see them when angling the coin. However there is one picture of the reverse of all three together that is angled just right to be able to see the marks I speak of so I guess maybe you can see them with the naked eye at a certain angle. These pictures were taken at fairly high resolution.

 

 

A small barely visible milk spot is forming.

 

 

Again a barely visible indention or ding? Not sure.

 

A closer view.

 

 

All three obverse

 

 

All three reverse

 

 

Closer view of that one area

 

 

 

I am sadly expecting that I will be advised that a 69 would be the best I could expect out of these but I needed to ask anyway. What do you folks think?

 

 

[Deerefan8420]

I think a 69 is all you will get out of these. If the marks are there and can be seen, then chances are that a 70 is out of the question. If my understanding is corrct, I think the graders don't use anything higher than 5x-8x magnification when looking at a coin. So if you are using a 5x loupe to find these marks, then the graders will more than likely find them as well. Getting a 70 out of these coins would be pretty hard. I think you'd be better off keeping them as they are in their OGP. Either way, these are still beautiful coins!

[wdrob]

 

Yeah. Sad but amazing how just a couple of little flaws, otherwise hardly noticeable, can drop the value of a coin so dramatically.

 

I agree that they are still a beautiful set and I am fine just doing as you said. Maybe in 20 to 30 years, when I am dead and gone, my kids will be able to get a fair price for them.

 

Thanks

[jpcienkus]

Don't mean to burst your bubble, but MS70 = a perfect coin. Buy a couple MS69's in the ASE set and try to find the blemish. That's all it takes and that's why there is a HUGE price difference between the two grades.

 

 

[BLive1972]

I think that barely visible ding would keep it from a 69 as well as those marks above the stars.

[wdrob]

 

 

MS/PF69: Virtually as struck with minuscule imperfections, near full strike necessary.

 

They all seem to have Full Strike. Minuscule being the extremely subjective term.

 

Minuscule: Extremely small; tiny

 

Is there another dictionary used solely for numismatics that I should be aware of? Anyone got a link?

 

 

[jpcienkus]

wdrob,

 

Your thread title asks "Will this keep it from a 70?"

 

Anything, any mark, any indent, any imperfection in the fields, on the high spots, anywhere on the coin will keep it from a 70. My point was that you can purchase MS69's and struggle to find that one imperfection that kept it out of a 70 holder. If you can visibly see anything on the coin, then yes, it will keep it from a 70. In some cases, you'll have to search the coin to find out why.

[wdrob]

I understand now what you meant.

 

I only really asked about it keeping it from a 70 because I have some PF70's that were bought from dealers that seem to have slight imperfections although they are extremely hard to see. I am beginning to think that maybe they have a connection on the inside or something.

 

I did order, and received today, the ANA Grading Standards book and I have been studying that quite studiously. I have also decided, after I receive all the coins that I have already submitted back, that I am no longer going to submit coins for grading. I had submitted coins that I wasn't even aware of .... I have memory problems. Apparently I had already submitted a SMS 1966 where the nickel had nice Full Steps. I accidentally put PF down though. I guess they will figure it out.

 

I bought quite a few air tight coin capsules with the black rings and spent the better part of today putting all my Silver Eagles, Commemorative's, well ..... pretty much all my coins in those capsules. Although I have about 6 full slab boxes of both NGC and PCGS slabs I am going to stop there I think. Unless the coins I have out yet to be decided on go real good and exceed my expectations, or at least meet them, I see no reason to spend money having coins graded. And the further I read the ANA Grading Guide I can clearly see just how subjective the grading scheme is.

 

I have also begun to think that any coin that I buy is either trash, improperly cleaned, dipped, and/or no where close to what I guessed. So as hard as it may be I am going to slow down considerably on any further purchases or just focus on the collection of stamps that I have going. They seem to be returning much greater rewards than the coins I buy.

 

Thanks for the tips and advice.

 

 

 

 

[jpcienkus]

I primarily collect Morgans, but I love the proof ASE. It's a beautiful coin. There's no romance or history about the coin like the older circulated coins, but it's still nice to have some. I do own quite a few of these coins. Remember, this is primarily a bullion coin. In the most recent years, the mintages are so high, it's never going to be considered scarce in our lifetimes unless there is a huge spike in silver and they get melted. That scenario is not likely at the moment. Look at the price delta's in the grades. The only grade that garners any premium over one in an OGP is a MS70 or PF70. When you add in the grading costs, the premium is minimal.

 

When you look at the older coins, only the perfect grades have any significant appreciation. Yes, there may be an exception or two, but in general, only perfect coins go for big $$. I have my theories as to why this is, but that's all they are, theories.

 

I think trying to play the "find the raw coin and hope it grades a 70" will be difficult. Unless you can expertly grade them, and only purchase them when you have the coin in hand will you possibly find that hidden gem. I think you'll be throwing good money after bad.

 

If you like the coins, buy some for yourself but don't think of them as a way to make a quick buck.

[wdrob]

I think trying to play the "find the raw coin and hope it grades a 70" will be difficult.

 

I would settle for a 66 or 67 on most of the older coins.

 

All the ASE 70's that I have were bought that way in slabs. I haven't sent any of the ungraded ASE's in to be graded and bought them mainly for bullion that can be insured with a homeowners insurance rider. They will not insure bullion alone, only numismatic collections. I have a 25 cubic foot safe and two fire proof safes inside that fire proof safe but I don't have room inside the interior safes for all my coins. Just important documents and back-up CD's, and stamps.

 

I had about 3 oz of gold and 150 oz of silver bullion in assayed bars and I decided to dump it all at the beginning of the month and take those funds and invest in coins instead. I sold so much at once that ebay suspended my account until I could prove that I did have possession of the items I was selling and that I could prove, through receipts, where I got it from.

 

I know the chances of finding a 70 in an old coin is relatively impossible but when they get older it seems as though 68 takes the place of 70. I see many coins that I look up that only have examples as high as the MS68. All together I have only sent in 9 coins and 5 of those were in a 1966 SMS so I actually haven't sent in many. I have only received one back so far. I thought for sure it would have came in at a 66 but it came back as a MS64RD. It was a 1959 Lincoln Memorial just as red as it could be, After getting it back and looking at the grading scale I can see where I was dreaming and they were, imo, correct on the grade.

 

I guess I will just have to wait and see how these other coins come back as far as a grade to determine what my next plan of action is going to be. If they come in at a decent grade I may change my attitude.

 

I have been moving away from ASE's lately anyway and buying a great amount of Australian silver. The mintage on most of that stuff is less than 5000. Pretty cool colored coins too.

 

Well I guess I am done rambling.

 

 

 

 

 

[jpcienkus]

Good to hear your thought process. I'm relatively new to this hobby and have spent time studying and purchasing various ASE's. If I see a coin design I like in a modern bullion version (ASE's, Silver Maples, Privy Maple's, Kookaburra's, etc...) I'll buy them already slabbed in MS70 or PF70; otherwise I buy them raw and keep them in an air tight.

 

It's tough to pin point what's going on in the ASE market, but one thing is clear, if the coin isn't MS70/PF70, it's value is very limited. Start looking at census data on the NGC site and you'll start to get an idea of the huge amounts of coins in the marketplace.

 

Some coins that "might" bring some appreciation in the ASE design are the "burnished" variety.

 

Here's a link to an ASE specific site. You might want to poke around a bit and get some ideas of mintages.

 

http://silvereagleguide.com/

 

Another great book to buy on this subject is John M. Mercanti "American Silver Eagles" A Guide to the U.S. Bullion Coin Program.

 

I don't know anyone with a crystal ball who can predict what's going to happen with prices in this coin. It's not rare by numismatic definition, but there are a lot of people collecting it. Have state quarter collectors found a new coin to collect and that's the reason for the popularity? Are the registry hounds buying perfect coins for points? I started buying them because I wanted solid silver coins. It's a great design.

 

As for other bullion offerings by the world mints (Great Britain, Canada, Mexico, China, Australia, New Zealand), I'll buy some because I like the design. I have no illusions that because the coins have low mintages that will automatically equal high value in the future. I own the Kangaroo at Sunset coin from the Australian mint. Very low mintage as well, but if there is no demand for the coin, the only reason it will go up in value is because of the price of silver. I liked the design, so I bought it.

 

Spend some time reading through the threads on this site. There are a lot of seasoned collectors/dealers/hobbyists that we can learn from, just by reading their posts.

[wdrob]

 

 

I just now realized this reply was here. Sorry to have ignored it (not intentional).

 

That is some good info and I am starting to use that census and trend data much more now than I used to and I have realized that what you said is true; a mintage or population value should not be the sole determining factor in speculation.

 

I visited that silver eagle site a week or so back and it was very informative. I bookmarked it but have had so many other things going on that I have yet to make a return visit.

 

Thanks again for the pointers.

[jpcienkus]

No worries.

 

I applaud you on your recent triumph with the ASE. I think it was an 87 that you got a perfect grade on and sold for a nice profit. That was very well done.

 

 

[wdrob]

Thanks

 

If I could just do that once a week.