"Branch Mint Proof" Morgan dollars
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:golfclap:

 

Fantastic post!! I applaud this great explanation which subtly indicates how non-proof coins magically become proof strikings in TPG holders for the purpose of increasing value. I hope everyone benefits from Flynn's excellent discussion.

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Good post, thanks.

 

One thing confuses me a little about coins that are graded PF65. I've see a few examples where an MS65 is worth more than the PF65. What would cause this?

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Have any forum members examined in person these so called branch mint proofs? How do they differ in appearance from the regular DMPL morgans that were produced?

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I posted this on VAMWorld and ATS, so I guess I'll repeat it here.

 

Of the four coins listed above, in Wayne Miller's Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook, only the 1884-CC is not listed as a definite and authorized branch mint proof. The 79-O was authorized to commemorate the reopening of the New Orleans mint. One specimen is in the Smithsonian and provenances for three others are given. The 83-O is mentioned by the New Orleans mint superintendent in the American Journal of Numismatics in 1884. The 1893-CC was struck to commemorate the closing of the CC mint, and Miller says that "considerable documentation exists" for this coin. He continues to describe this coin as not having typical cameo proof appearance, especially on the obverse.

 

One cannot compare the quality of Philadelphia proofs to branch mint proofs, just as you can't compare business strikes across mints. The branch mints weren't as well versed with the proper manufacture of proof coinage and didn't have access to Philadelphia's medal room.

 

Someone posted a link on VAMWorld to a 2009 Heritage catalog that has more good information.

 

Interestingly, the 79-O is the only one with squared-off rims we're used to seeing on Philadelphia proofs. It could be these were struck at Philadelphia on their equipment for New Orleans. If there were matching die markers between the obverses of the 79-P and 79-O proofs, this would prove that Philadelphia struck the 79-O BMPs using the same obverse used for the normal proofs. Other BMPs show evidence of being from known business strike dies that had been re-polished for these special strikings.

 

 

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A fin rim (aka "wire rim" in Breenisms) is not a characteristic of US Mint proof coins.

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Have any forum members examined in person these so called branch mint proofs? How do they differ in appearance from the regular DMPL morgans that were produced?

 

I've handled around 10 of them; two to three were Morgans (in fact we just sent one Morgan to NGC), the rest were smaller coinage, all silver. They do vary significantly from even the finest business strikes I've encountered (which are pretty much the top pop pieces across the board). In particular, the lettering and dentils are substantially sharper and more pronounced on the "branch-mint proof" Morgans I've handled and on the smaller coins, the wire rim only compliments the sharpest design I've witnessed on said series. I would compare them to Matte Proof Lincolns--not in the sense that they're matte proofs, but in the careful attention to detail I don't see on normal business strikes.

 

Perhaps the better term than proof is specimen which I've seen coming into popularity now. Regardless of what they actually are or how they were struck, I find them to be the pinnacle of their respective series.

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Good post, thanks.

 

One thing confuses me a little about coins that are graded PF65. I've see a few examples where an MS65 is worth more than the PF65. What would cause this?

 

The value depends upon the rarity and the demand of the coin/date in question. Due to lower mintages and/or survival rates, some business strike coins are much rarer than their Proof counterparts. On the other hand, some Proofs of other coins/dates are much rarer.

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Have any forum members examined in person these so called branch mint proofs? How do they differ in appearance from the regular DMPL morgans that were produced?

 

I have seen quite a few of them. Some were quite convincing (as in they looked just like what one would/should expect for a Proof coin), while others, to me, at least, required some imagination. ;)

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:golfclap:

 

Fantastic post!! I applaud this great explanation which subtly indicates how non-proof coins magically become proof strikings in TPG holders for the purpose of increasing value. I hope everyone benefits from Flynn's excellent discussion.

 

James the post raised some good issues and questions. But in the case of at least some of the examples questioned, as can be seen in the post from John/Messydesk, there apparently is official documentation.

 

By the way, I wonder if he will ever clean up that messy desk of his? ;)

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About to send in for attribution CAC as BMP! I know most say it's just a common date no need in having it slabbed but it may not be so common if it slabs as a branch mint proof 

20190515_022042.jpg

20190515_021856.jpg

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2 hours ago, Mason254 said:

About to send in for attribution CAC as BMP! I know most say it's just a common date no need in having it slabbed but it may not be so common if it slabs as a branch mint proof 

20190515_022042.jpg

20190515_021856.jpg

That coin is clearly not a Proof - it doesn’t resemble one in any way. Please look at some pictures of Proof Morgan dollars and you should see the obvious differences in their appearance.

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8 hours ago, Mason254 said:

About to send in for attribution CAC as BMP! I know most say it's just a common date no need in having it slabbed but it may not be so common if it slabs as a branch mint proof 

20190515_022042.jpg

20190515_021856.jpg

O'my!

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Like the others said, Mason, your coin is definitely not a proof.  It's a regular business strike coin.

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9 hours ago, Mason254 said:

About to send in for attribution CAC as BMP! I know most say it's just a common date no need in having it slabbed but it may not be so common if it slabs as a branch mint proof 

 

 

While I wish you luck I think you will be very disappointed with the result of your submission.

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2 hours ago, Coinbuf said:

While I wish you luck I think you will be very disappointed with the result of your submission.

Not at all! I mean no matter what at the end of the day bud I will have slabbed a very nice piece of America Coinage so that our future numismatic enthusiast will be able to enjoy it is not about wishing or hoping to gain a profit just a beautiful coin that deserves to be slabbed 

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3 hours ago, Mason254 said:

Not at all! I mean no matter what at the end of the day bud I will have slabbed a very nice piece of America Coinage so that our future numismatic enthusiast will be able to enjoy it is not about wishing or hoping to gain a profit just a beautiful coin that deserves to be slabbed 

Even that is debatable. Its good to have some raw examples to really get into them with the loupe. For not much more than the cost and hassle of grading this one you can probably get an MS63 already graded maybe a 64.

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1 hour ago, mumu said:

Even that is debatable. Its good to have some raw examples to really get into them with the loupe. For not much more than the cost and hassle of grading this one you can probably get an MS63 already graded maybe a 64.

Agreed on all points.  Common Morgans in MS 63 and even some in MS 64 are very affordable and easy to find.....I'd go the exact route mumu is recommending.  It's good to have raw coins in your collection as well as graded for many reasons.  My entire currently small Roman collection is all raw and it's been a ton of fun to really get up close with them, both with a loupe and with the naked eye.......it's allowed me to really get to know the coins and learn their diagnostics, which in turn has helped me learn to spot fakes. 

Edited by Mohawk

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2 hours ago, mumu said:

Even that is debatable. Its good to have some raw examples to really get into them with the loupe. For not much more than the cost and hassle of grading this one you can probably get an MS63 already graded maybe a 64.

For not much more than the cost and hassle?Been a great journey for me I have rather small collection so I tend to have hoarded a few raw which as mentioned is indeed great being able to by eye or 8x loupe which I do!

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10 hours ago, Mason254 said:

For not much more than the cost and hassle?Been a great journey for me I have rather small collection so I tend to have hoarded a few raw which as mentioned is indeed great being able to by eye or 8x loupe which I do!

Yeah, aka $50

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Not to mention the joys of finding undergraded coins if that's your thing. I just scored a peace dollar in a 64 holder that is a slam dunk 65 or 65+ for 48$. Its not a windfall but if I sold it one day it might pay for the grading of another coin or something like that. It is very rare that submitting a coin under $200(some may argue $500 even) yourself is worth it. If you really feel the need to do it just to test your raw grading skills, do it once. Otherwise there are so many graded cons out there under $50 that it doesn't make sense to do it yourself.

Edited by mumu

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That Morgan would be lucky to get a 63. After 1 min I found this on ebay. A very nice 63 yes but there are thousands , Many thousands of them that are under graded and frankly make yours look very anemic.

But it is your money so Bon Vivant....

hm first time using that phrase on these boards.....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1885-O-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-1-PCGS-MS63/233240705574?epid=170432719&hash=item364e3aba26:g:TxEAAOSw-jFc7Wad

s-l1600[1].jpg

s-l1600[2].jpg

Edited by MAULEMALL

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7 hours ago, MAULEMALL said:

That Morgan would be lucky to get a 63. After 1 min I found this on ebay. A very nice 63 yes but there are thousands , Many thousands of them that are under graded and frankly make yours look very anemic.

But it is your money so Bon Vivant....

hm first time using that phrase on these boards.....

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1885-O-MORGAN-SILVER-DOLLAR-1-PCGS-MS63/233240705574?epid=170432719&hash=item364e3aba26:g:TxEAAOSw-jFc7Wad

s-l1600[1].jpg

s-l1600[2].jpg

If you think so! That coin is nothing compared to mine

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On 6/3/2019 at 5:53 AM, mumu said:

That's not even a well struck business example.

Well please feel free so show me your well struck business example 

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The picture is now very well taken however I'm in the process of learning the proper lighting as well as many other factors that coincide with shooting photos of coins 

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The pics on the coin I exampled from eBay aren't that good either.

But the difference is obvious. It's not that your coin is bad it's just an average ms 62/63 and there is no value added to certifying it.

 

s-l1600[1].jpg

s-l1600[2].jpg

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19 hours ago, Mason254 said:

Well please feel free so show me your well struck business example 

I'm not a big morgan collector so im not sure I have any white ones. I collect toners so will be hard to show. Google images has millions. Someone here will be happy to im sure.

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Here's as close as I can get. I paid $59 for this one on ebay.Not an amazing strike but better:

crescent1.jpg

crescentrev.jpg

crescentslab.jpg

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