My 1847 Seater is strange, need some opinions
1 1

41 posts in this topic

96 posts

Greetings collectors.

 

I acquired this 1847 Seated Liberty Dollar from a trustworthy dealer and I attempted to trade it today. The dealer I tried trading with is someone I put alot of trust in. He said the coin looks suspicious due to the high relief near the top denticles. It looks from far that it was struck slightly off center and therefore left a high relief. It also has some strange abrasion at right of the 7 in the date. Pictures below. The other specs are that it is non magnetic weighs in appropriatly at 26.7grams (my scale is only single digit) and is 38mm in diameter. So everything tells me it is real. Now a last ooly to ponder. If you utilize the coin explorer on NGC and pull up the mint state 1847 seater it shows some sort of fracture to the right at 7 and the high relief on the rim from about 1000-0200 relative. Anyway, please look at these pictures and tell me if this all makes sense or if I have been dooped. I paid good money even with the minor flaw at right of the seven, but nothing really screams fake to me. Especially with all the research online even the good fakes seem more obvious. Anyways Thanks!

131444.jpg.cde9b9358d1ccc04bdb9fa78c904e794.jpg

131445.jpg.a47f2fce3c3905c796608de193f28e25.jpg

131446.jpg.f59ac3799cadc5ea622c87e339ce107d.jpg

131447.jpg.718f6e262130ac11cfcb28c3fd486fed.jpg

Edited by SubmarineMike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,852 posts

I don't know anything about what you are asking (I'm sure someone here does, so just be patient).

 

Welcome to the forum. Judging by your username, and your use of the term "ooly" - I'm guessing you're a nuke?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14,852 posts
Ouch don't insult me. I am 100% Forward. Sonar Technician more specifically.

 

Haha. I only say that because I'm a nuke instructor (civilian contractor) at the Charleston MTS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts
lol. No problem I am also an instructor in Norfolk. I actually have nothing against Nukes. I think we are just trained to be competive with one another.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3,051 posts

I'm a rocket scientist, and I can't answer your coin question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,834 posts

Even if genuine (which I can't tell from the images), due to the (apparent) polishing, the coin would not have a lot of value.

 

Since the dealer from whom you acquired it is "trustworthy", he should probably be willing to take it back at a price that is only slightly lower than your cost. And if you bought it very recently (within the past week or so), he should be willing to give you a full refund.

 

I urge you to return it or sell it back to him.

 

Edited to add: The area to the right of the date might be a repair or spot removal. Regardless of what it is, however, there are other things about the coin, which are as or more worrisome.

Edited by MarkFeld

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 posts

The coin in question looks fine to me, the second dealer was probably just not really interested or just worried about buying counterfeits. A lot more high end counterfeits out there have some dealers spooked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts

Thank you for the reply. Can you please elaborate on the more worrisome features? BTW I knew this coin had some flaws at purchase and that it is low grade. I have neither the budget or will to collect high grade specimins. So perhaps the worrisome features may not be so bad to me. But really if your willing I would really like to hear some more. Thanks!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts

Thank you for the honest reply. I seem to get alot of useless feedback so right off I am thankful. Anyway. I would really like to hear more about the other worrisome features that you saw in the pictures if you are willing to share a little more. Please note however that I knew when purchasing this coin that it was both low grade and flawed. But nothing seemed counterfeit. I agree with one of the other replies that the dealer probably didn't want to insult me. I understand. I haven't got the budget for more reputable coins so I choose to collect low grade examples. Anyway, thanks again and I am eager to hear more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,834 posts
Thank you for the reply. Can you please elaborate on the more worrisome features? BTW I knew this coin had some flaws at purchase and that it is low grade. I have neither the budget or will to collect high grade specimins. So perhaps the worrisome features may not be so bad to me. But really if your willing I would really like to hear some more. Thanks!

 

Yes, one of the worrisome features is the apparent polishing of the coin. Another is that I can't tell for certain from the image, whether it's genuine. But even if it is, the polishing kills its value.

 

There are countless better, but still affordable examples out there. What were you charged for the coin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts

Sorry friend, I am bombarding you with replies. I paid 500, he graded it xf, I thought VF. Really I traded a bunch of low end things I inhereted so very little out of pocket for me. But nonetheless, I wanted to make sure I am not completely getting ripped off.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,871 posts
Greetings collectors.

 

I acquired this 1847 Seated Liberty Dollar from a trustworthy dealer and I attempted to trade it today. The dealer I tried trading with is someone I put alot of trust in. He said the coin looks suspicious due to the high relief near the top denticles. It looks from far that it was struck slightly off center and therefore left a high relief. It also has some strange abrasion at right of the 7 in the date. Pictures below. The other specs are that it is non magnetic weighs in appropriatly at 26.7grams (my scale is only single digit) and is 38mm in diameter. So everything tells me it is real. Now a last ooly to ponder. If you utilize the coin explorer on NGC and pull up the mint state 1847 seater it shows some sort of fracture to the right at 7 and the high relief on the rim from about 1000-0200 relative. Anyway, please look at these pictures and tell me if this all makes sense or if I have been dooped. I paid good money even with the minor flaw at right of the seven, but nothing really screams fake to me. Especially with all the research online even the good fakes seem more obvious. Anyways Thanks!

 

The wire rim effect is common on Seated coinage.

 

The problem to the right of the 7 is one of several things, none of which are desirable; a grease streak on the planchet, a repaired gouge, or a stain. The coin appears to have been stripped white, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15,660 posts

Nothing at all makes the coin suspicious as a fake, to me. While it seems to be cleaned, I also do not believe you paid an outrageous amount for it. All in all, you may have paid top dollar for a coin with problematic surfaces, but if it is indeed genuine as I think it is, you are not losing your shirt here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12,834 posts
Sorry friend, I am bombarding you with replies. I paid 500, he graded it xf, I thought VF. Really I traded a bunch of low end things I inhereted so very little out of pocket for me. But nonetheless, I wanted to make sure I am not completely getting ripped off.

 

Sorry, I think $500 is way too much for a polished coin like that. It is not worth XF money and you can do much better than that.

 

I have made my point and beyond that, it is your coin, your money and your decision. Best of luck to you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2,543 posts

It is big, old and shiny - it did not come from the mint that way - someone harshly cleaned or polished it. The dealer you presented it to, may have no interest in buying that coin for more than silver melt,as that is what they would do with it. So rather than give an offer that would insult you, they just told you it is suspicious rather than what they thought - too bad someone wrecked that coin.

 

The tails off the 4 in the date, and rim areas all look legit. Here is a link to a coin that looks very similar to yours, although yours looks like a more recent wire brush scrubbing -

Teletrade cleaned 1847 dollar

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
104 posts

Your Seated Liberty Dollar looks perfectly legit to me. The only thing about it that bothers me is the smudge by the seven. It appears that something was rubbed out at one time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,405 posts

Looks genuine but is severely polished/cleaned. $500 is far beyond what this coin is worth to me (and most other collectors). My honest opinion is that you have a $200 coin. Sorry but that's what I see.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
177 posts

Hey SubmarineMike, I don't know much about your seated liberty if it's fake or not but I do know BQR-7, BQR-21, BQQ-3, BQR-23, towed array, Afternoon effect, Doppler effect, I guess you could say I was forward puke myself back in the day. Does my user name give anything away to you? :signofftopic:

 

Have a great day

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
177 posts

BTW if you really want to know send it in for grading. I recently inherited a 2 1/2 dollar gold which I thought to be questionable, and sent it in and sure enough it came back as NOT genuine. The only saving grace on it was the fact that it was a true gold coin just not a real one so I sold it for melt value. My local dealer gave me a fair price for the gold it contained. So your only REAL way to tell is let NGC tell you for sure.

 

Jim

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15,660 posts
Sorry friend, I am bombarding you with replies. I paid 500, he graded it xf, I thought VF. Really I traded a bunch of low end things I inhereted so very little out of pocket for me. But nonetheless, I wanted to make sure I am not completely getting ripped off.

Just as a point of reference, if that came over the counter here at the shop, I would offer close to $300 for it, and would list it for sale at $400, hoping to get something like $375. This is why I think you paid strong retail money for it, but I don't think you paid outrageous moon money.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts

Jim

 

The strange thing here is that the dealer I see just had the same thing happen to him. He got a fake gold coin but it was 22kt so he got melt. I am going to eventually send it in for grading. Thanks for the info!

 

Mike

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
96 posts

Everyone, thank you for the information. I feel a little more comfortable about it now. BTW, I do indeed agree that this coin is polished, but I do not see the tell tell signs of wire brushing. These pictures are very high power magnification, I think the lines are more natural pitting. But I value the data I was given. I am not an expert. Thanks all!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10,738 posts

First, if the coin is genuine, it has been cleaned to death. With that problem the coin is worth no more than $250.

 

As to whether or not it is genuine, it's hard to tell from these pictures. The 1847 dollar in Dave Bowers' silver dollar book does show the same ridge or "fin" on the obverse from 11 to 2 k. This happens when metal works its way between the die and the collar when the coin is struck. Most of the coins pictured on the "Coin Facts" page do not show this feature.

 

Thing to the right of the date bugs me. It tends to make me think that this was a flaw in the counterfeiting process. I'm not saying the coin is bad with 100% certainty, but I don't like the piece from the pictures.

 

Bottom line, you are worrying about this piece now, you will never be happy with it in the future. I'd return it if I could. A "100% reliable dealer" would have called this coin "cleaned" from the get-go. If he didn't you have an odd definition of "reliable."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4,871 posts
It is big, old and shiny - it did not come from the mint that way - someone harshly cleaned or polished it. The dealer you presented it to, may have no interest in buying that coin for more than silver melt,as that is what they would do with it. So rather than give an offer that would insult you, they just told you it is suspicious rather than what they thought - too bad someone wrecked that coin.

 

The tails off the 4 in the date, and rim areas all look legit. Here is a link to a coin that looks very similar to yours, although yours looks like a more recent wire brush scrubbing -

Teletrade cleaned 1847 dollar

 

Someone certainly wrecked this coin, but it's worth considerably more than melt, and I know of no dealer who would consider melting that coin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1,741 posts

I was a nuclear propulsion officer in the mid '80's and I don't remember ever hearing the word "ooly" before. I had to Google it to find out what it was. Maybe the officers were pampered too much and weren't asked any oolys. :)

 

As for the coin, I agree with those that say the coin has been cleaned/polished and I would value it around half of what you paid. I bought an ANACS EF-45 1849 about a year ago off of ebay for about what you paid and my coin has crusty original surfaces. Many new collectors think that shiny is better but after they get more experience they learn to appreciate an original coin much more. Any coin can be polished up but you can't put original back on a coin.

 

There's nothing wrong with collecting lower grade coins that fit your budget but you would be better served to be more selective and stay away from problem coins.

 

Weclome to the forum. Stick around and read, ask questions and learn. Just as you learned to tell a three bladed screw from a four bladed screw you need to learn how to analyse coins before you spend your hard earned cash. And don't forget to clear your baffles. Some dealers will try to sneak up on you. ;)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now
1 1