Are we losing the art of negotiation?

[shirohniichan]

Do you think the instant availability of information is making negotiation more difficult?

 

In the old days we had our gray sheets (at least dealers did-- that's why it's the Coin Dealer Newsletter) and less than precise methods of grading. We haggled over coin prices, and collectors had less pricing and grade information at hand. We expected to negotiate a price on a coin.

 

It seems that there are more instant-experts born of the information accessibility boom that demand certain pricing they have conjured up rather than negotiating. "I can get this same coin for $550 over the Internet" is an example of a common claim. The dealer can try to reason with the potential customer by explaining the merits of his particular coin, but he's likely to be met with, "But they're both PCGS MS-63 with blue certs" (as if that meant the coins were identical in every way).

 

On the flipside, a collector may hear, "One just like this closed at the Heritage auction for $875 plus the juice," as if that were a definitive evaluation on the item for sale.

 

Are the talking points different but negotiation itself still working satisfactorily, or have we gotten so much information (which we may often misuse) that we get offended by counter-offers and insist on getting our way?

 

When a particular collector makes the rounds on all the sites and all the dealers at a show, is he more likely now to leave bad feedback even if he buys the coin (at a price he thinks all dealers have somehow artificially raised above the true value)?

[coinman1794]

I little knowledge is a dangerous thing. Some people think they are experts because they can use the internet to look up generic auction reords and price guides that often miss the mark on the more esoteric items, like die varieties.

[mtnstyne]

While a little knowledge is dangerous the lack of knowledge makes for a one sided negotiation. In my limited experience most dealers act as if all buyers are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons to start with and until you demonstrate some knowledge they won't bring prices into the rhealm of reality.

 

This is so shiny because is brilliant uncirculated...when if fact it's cleaned AU. The worst I've seen was a guy trying to buy a double eagle from a little old lady for signicantly less than melt. Thankfully she walked off.

 

 

[coinman1794]

I cannot speak for unscrupulous dealers; I think you are adding something else, entirely, to this conversation.

 

I've been bullied by potential buyers who want to argue with me over the price of certain Finest Known coins that I have in inventory. I have the single finest known coin, and it has never been on the market, yet somehow, PCGS lists a value for it, and I have to explain the dynamics, as if I am the bad guy.

 

[newprepper]

While a little knowledge is dangerous the lack of knowledge makes for a one sided negotiation. In my limited experience most dealers act as if all buyers are insufficiently_thoughtful_persons to start with and until you demonstrate some knowledge they won't bring prices into the rhealm of reality.

 

This is so shiny because is brilliant uncirculated...when if fact it's cleaned AU. The worst I've seen was a guy trying to buy a double eagle from a little old lady for signicantly less than melt. Thankfully she walked off.

 

[/quote

 

AnkurJ or Mark Feld told of basically the same thing happening to them, he was quoted price, started to look it up on smart phone and dealer immediately dropped price because dealer said "you obviously know what you are doing" so he had it priced for insufficiently_thoughtful_persons. Not a very nice person. If I am wrong I apologize in advance

[michael]

Are we losing the art of negotiation?

 

i dont think so in fact it is a good thing

 

as now for scarce to rare coins with extraordinary qualities/eye appeal if the seller can prove as such with all the information out there in the cyber world that the coin is truly special and a cut above the rest then it is more easily justified pricewise to the buyer so this is actually a good thing

 

 

now one important CAVIET the above is not for the run of the mill nice but always available coins THIS IS ONLY FOR THE REALLY SCARCE TO RARE COINS WITH DECADES OF PROVEN TRACK RECORDS GOING BACK TO THE EARLY 20TH CENTURY AND even BEFORE! that are TRULY SCARCE TO RARE AND WITH extraordinary qualities/eye appeal (within the grade) that separate them from the rest of the pack

 

i think that rarity and quality (within the grade) is going to trump most all of the other so so always available non special non historical coins out there by available all the time if you just do a little looking

[tenacious]

On the flipside, a collector may hear, "One just like this closed at the Heritage auction for $875 plus the juice," as if that were a definitive evaluation on the item for sale.

 

A problem is that some people think that one auction result, usually the highest, = the current fair market value.

 

One auction result does not a fair market value make.

 

 

[RWB]

Items that are effectively one-of-a-kind have no fair market value.

[BillJones]

Arguing that you get something from the Internet for less money is unless you are talking about modern Proof coins, bullion or recent mint sets. Every old coin has its pluses and minuses, and trying to say that a really nice coin in hand should sell for less because you can get it in the "same grade" is a waste of time. You don't enough about coin until you have seen it in hand. Otherwise it is just speculation.

 

Trust me. I've seen how you can get in trouble using auction house pictures and descriptions first hand.

 

[Raisethis2]

Like everything else, numismatics has changed. Once upon a time (1980's) a Dealer would most often look at his Gray Sheet and offer 10% back of bid for a coin offered to him he could use. The margin between that 10% back and his ask was sufficient to move inventory.

 

I've sold coins within the past year with Dealers at about 15% back of bid, but that's been the most reasonable offers I've seen. Otherwise, I've been offered 1/2 value, pricing for a grade less than actual on raw coins and once I was offered 20% back of MS 64 bid for an MS 65 NGC holdered dollar. That was just insulting.

 

I understand that Dealer costs are high but they do this to themselves. I've bought maybe 100 coins this year, maybe 5 were from Dealers. The rest in auctions after I've had the coin in hand.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Do you think the instant availability of information is making negotiation more difficult?

 

In the old days we had our gray sheets (at least dealers did-- that's why it's the Coin Dealer Newsletter) and less than precise methods of grading. We haggled over coin prices, and collectors had less pricing and grade information at hand. We expected to negotiate a price on a coin.

 

It seems that there are more instant-experts born of the information accessibility boom that demand certain pricing they have conjured up rather than negotiating. "I can get this same coin for $550 over the Internet" is an example of a common claim. The dealer can try to reason with the potential customer by explaining the merits of his particular coin, but he's likely to be met with, "But they're both PCGS MS-63 with blue certs" (as if that meant the coins were identical in every way).

 

On the flipside, a collector may hear, "One just like this closed at the Heritage auction for $875 plus the juice," as if that were a definitive evaluation on the item for sale.

 

Are the talking points different but negotiation itself still working satisfactorily, or have we gotten so much information (which we may often misuse) that we get offended by counter-offers and insist on getting our way?

 

When a particular collector makes the rounds on all the sites and all the dealers at a show, is he more likely now to leave bad feedback even if he buys the coin (at a price he thinks all dealers have somehow artificially raised above the true value)?

 

Good question.

 

No. The art of negotiation is enhanced by the instant availability of information.

 

The art of negotiation is in the challenge to change the peception and position of the other person who is relying on information that may, or may not, be accurate, and try to conclude a transaction that is satisfying to both persons.

 

Actually, the more information the better, for a negotiation.

Anything else is simply buying and selling, not negotiation.

[BillJones]

Like everything else, numismatics has changed. Once upon a time (1980's) a Dealer would most often look at his Gray Sheet and offer 10% back of bid for a coin offered to him he could use. The margin between that 10% back and his ask was sufficient to move inventory.

 

I've sold coins within the past year with Dealers at about 15% back of bid, but that's been the most reasonable offers I've seen. Otherwise, I've been offered 1/2 value, pricing for a grade less than actual on raw coins and once I was offered 20% back of MS 64 bid for an MS 65 NGC holdered dollar. That was just insulting.

 

I understand that Dealer costs are high but they do this to themselves. I've bought maybe 100 coins this year, maybe 5 were from Dealers. The rest in auctions after I've had the coin in hand.

 

While your experience has been poor, it does not mean much because you have not told us what sort of coins you are trying sell. If it is a bunch modern material, I am not surprised. A lot this stuff is a one way market. If you are trying to sell "C" quality graded coins this will happen to you.

 

I know that trying to sell stuff to dealers is hard right now because the coin market, like the rest of the economy, is worse than most people are willing to admit. Without seeing the coins or even knowing what are, I cannot know if these dealers are trying rip you or not.

[Kurtdog]

[...]have we gotten so much information (which we may often misuse) that we get offended by counter-offers and insist on getting our way?

I'm sure there's some of that going on. But if a dealer knows what he's doing he's going to know what a reasonable price is for his coin. That should translate to the potential buyer as, if he doesn't buy it at that price, somebody else will. But if the potential buyer doesn't know how to evaluate a coin, sure, he's not going to know what's reasonable; is he?

[PerryHall]

I don't negotiate---I ask the dealer for his best price and then I either play or pass. Life is too short to play games.

[shirohniichan]

Do you think the instant availability of information is making negotiation more difficult?

 

In the old days we had our gray sheets (at least dealers did-- that's why it's the Coin Dealer Newsletter) and less than precise methods of grading. We haggled over coin prices, and collectors had less pricing and grade information at hand. We expected to negotiate a price on a coin.

 

It seems that there are more instant-experts born of the information accessibility boom that demand certain pricing they have conjured up rather than negotiating. "I can get this same coin for $550 over the Internet" is an example of a common claim. The dealer can try to reason with the potential customer by explaining the merits of his particular coin, but he's likely to be met with, "But they're both PCGS MS-63 with blue certs" (as if that meant the coins were identical in every way).

 

On the flipside, a collector may hear, "One just like this closed at the Heritage auction for $875 plus the juice," as if that were a definitive evaluation on the item for sale.

 

Are the talking points different but negotiation itself still working satisfactorily, or have we gotten so much information (which we may often misuse) that we get offended by counter-offers and insist on getting our way?

 

When a particular collector makes the rounds on all the sites and all the dealers at a show, is he more likely now to leave bad feedback even if he buys the coin (at a price he thinks all dealers have somehow artificially raised above the true value)?

 

Good question.

 

No. The art of negotiation is enhanced by the instant availability of information.

 

The art of negotiation is in the challenge to change the peception and position of the other person who is relying on information that may, or may not, be accurate, and try to conclude a transaction that is satisfying to both persons.

 

Actually, the more information the better, for a negotiation.

Anything else is simply buying and selling, not negotiation.

 

I get the feeling that instant access to lots of information (much of it irrelevant to the situation at hand) raises buyers' expectations so that they are less willing to negotiate. In other works, they are less willing to bend because they have so much data they have manipulated to support their expectations.

 

A new seller could run into this very problem, but I think he would soon be out of business.

 

A buyer who limits his data set on "market pricing" for a particular coin to only see the low pricing he wants to see will end up with the worst possible coins assigned a particular grade. There is nothing new about this. Even back in the 1970s and '80s some would opt to buy "BU" Indian Cents from an ad in COINage for $17.95 rather than pay the $60 a brick and mortar dealer asked. I learned a lesson that way (I got a cleaned XF 1906 that I quickly returned).

 

It seems to me that the problem of unrealistic expectations has gone beyond even this.

[Kurtdog]

I get the feeling that instant access to lots of information (much of it irrelevant to the situation at hand) raises buyers' expectations so that they are less willing to negotiate. In other works, they are less willing to bend because they have so much data they have manipulated to support their expectations.

I can understand that and like I said I think there's probably a lot of that going on. But I'll still maintain a knowledgeable collector is going to look at the coin in basically the same way a knowledgeable dealer is. It's an expensive coin in an NGC slab, let's say. They're both going to start with the NGC price guide, and some auction sales, at that grade. Then, they're going to differentiate. Eye-appealing tarnish, they're both going to know, means the grade likely got bumped up for the market, and the coin is even conceivably going to warrant a premium to the right collector above and beyond that market grade. If they're both knowledgeable, they're both going to evaluate the coin in the same way, based upon the criteria, and are basically going to weigh that criteria the same way. Even if the knowledgeable collector doesn't collect tarnish, he's going to acknowledge the legitimacy of the premium for the eye-appealing tarnish, whether or not he buys the coin at that premium price.

 

All in all, sure, a certain segment of the population is going to conclude erroneously because they want the coin at the lowest possible price are seeing only the evidence that supports their bias, and are going to come into the negotiations tough as a nickel steak for it. But a dealer is going to know when he's dealing with that kind, and when he's dealing with the more reasonable, objective, knowledgeable kind. I'd suspect, anyway...

[shirohniichan]

I think you've made the key distinction here, Kurtdog-- the knowledgable buyer vs. the not-so-knowledgable buyer.

 

Some buyers now have the notion that information is power (not that knowledge is power), so they think having lots of information (whether good or bad, they can't tell) means they have a good bargaining position. Some take this a step further and behave as if bargaining is no longer necessary-- all they have to do is demand. They "know" a certain coin is only worth so much because they have lots of references on coins they think are similar, even if they are not.

 

A truly knowledgable buyer will be able to negotiate well because he'll have reasonable expectations. He will be less likely to feel offended when a seller offers a coin at a reasonable price. The guy with lots of bad information will be more likely to scream that someone (whether dealer or fellow collector) is trying to "rip him off" by asking a reasonable price for a coin certified at a certain grade that has more things going for it than the average example. Certain varieties are worth more. Strong strikes in certain years demand much higher prices. Knowing this helps a collector to keep reasonable expectations.

[Kurtdog]

We each learned something, here. Sometimes that's all it takes. Knocking heads and sticking with it until you get there. (thumbs u

[Houston Investor]

The pricing for world coins is not always as clear cut as it is for US and for the quality and scarce world issues negotiating can be quite intense if not emotional.

 

I know one guy, a vest pocket trader and avid collector of quality world material, who knew how to negotiate. It was combination of academic knowledge, enthusiasm, and salesmanship. I remember a conversation with him at one show where we discovered we had been bidding against each other in a Teletrade auction for a rather tough to find high grade world gold issue.