Did everyone receive this

[moondoggy]

Could this be the harbinger we have all expected

 

Received this in my e-mail tonight. (Title of E-Mail was: NGC CrossOver special for US and world coins) I know we discussed at length when certain PCGS coins were removed from various sets oh, about what, 6 months ago or so. It was brought up at that time that it was in the stars that NGC would become exclusive in only allowing "their" coins into the register sets. So I ask, is this the harbinger we have all been reluctantly expecting and hoping it wouldn't arrive. I mean I have no problem with having all NGC graded coins in my collections but again I state they should have a "special price" for those PCGS coins already in NGC registry sets to be crossed. What does everyone think

I say $3.00 - $5.00/coin to have it crossed if it is in fact already in a registry set here at NGC would be a fair price. Right now crossover price is according to Tier level.

Anyway I'm sure some others here have received that e-mail today/tonight.

 

Mike

 

See more journals by moondoggy

[Jack Robinson]

Hi Mike... Yes, I rec'd the same message. Since I was new in this adventure back some six months ago, and taking some of the original comments to learn/heed from, I switched exclusively to NGC certified coins.

 

I do have some PCGS slabbed coins, Franklins, Kennedy and a few other types, but I will not be crossing over these coins.

 

I do agree with you in regards to a reduced price.

 

I do see, however, a tough situation brewing: How does NGC validate original PCGS slabs that were removed compared to new submission of PCGS slabbed coins? Since the original registered PCGS slabbed coins were removed from registries back some six months ago to present. IMHO

 

I hope NGC figures out a balance of fees for those who hold large quantities of original PCGS registered coins.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jack

[Iowa Silver Baron Bammer]

Hi all,

 

I also received the email today. Quite frankly, I'm a little put out if your conclusions are true. I had called NGC, oh I guess maybe in May, and was told there were no plans to ban PCGS graded coins from United States sets. To be honest, if it comes to this, I'm afraid I'll be out of here.

 

Iowa Silver Baron

[Iowa Silver Baron Bammer]

Hi all, again,

 

I want to elaborate a little more. I looked at my registry sets and I must have called on or around April 24th as that is the date of my last registry set edits. I have a few State and ATB quarters that are PCGS as well as some in my Westward Journey nickel sets.

 

This was the BIG reason I called to clarify the policy, and was told "no plans now or in the near future". That's paraphrased but is the substance of what I was told.

 

I guess deep down I figured it would change sooner rather than later, but I WILL NOT crossover any coins, unless it's free. My thought is the amount of money we pay to be members here, the service should be done free, as I have no guarantees the grades will cross over the same. All the quarters I have PCGS are proof 70's, why would I want to take a chance that NGC doesn't think so, plus having to pay for it besides.

 

Anyway, wanted to put in my reasoning for being angry if the coins are banned from the sets.

 

Iowa Silver Baron

 

[mailman1959]

If you read it carefully it says "Dont forget NGC-certified coins are backed by NGC's comprehensive gaurantee, and are eligible for inclusion in the NGC Registry............

[Iowa Silver Baron Bammer]

To mailman,

 

I guess my feeling here is, so what? First off, doesn't PCGS have a guarantee also? Secondly, if you read the crossover section in fees and services, it states; "NGC does not accept MS/PF70 coins for crossover at the same grade." To me, that's saying chances are, they come back at 69s. Why, oh why would I want to crossover my 8 PCGS graded state, atb and westward journey coins, pay any kind of fee, and then be told they're not 70's?

 

I'm not picking on you mailman, just want to show my reasons for not liking this. For example, if any of my quarters would be crossed over, and not come back as 70's, I would lose on the value of the coin, first of all, from $17.50 to $25 per coin, plus any crossover grading fee. Then, if they come back as 69's, to keep my sets all 70's I'd have to go out and buy NGC graded coins. I don't need 2 of the same coin, so I'd sell the crossovers, and probably only rececive 60% of the value, so I've suddenly lost even more.

 

The only winner to all of this is NGC. We all pay good money to belong to the Society, I don't think we all (not just me) deserve to be treated like this, especially when back in 2005 or 2006 when I joined, NGC was trumpeting allowing both in the sets as a big reason to join.

 

Iowa Silver Baron

[mailman1959]

The business is always the winner, plus they don't allow a coin that is graded a "70" for crossover.

[JAA]

I think everyone is overreacting. There was nothing in the email that suggested that NGC plans to ban PCGS coins from US Registry Sets.

[SPHansen]

I'm not sure if it means anything... I mean, if NGC was planning to remove all but NGC coins from the registry, why would they resort to trickery to get you to crossover?

 

Hypothetically, they could announce that after Dec 31st, only NGC coins will be in the registry. They then run this special for a few months to allow for crossover... that makes more sense, as the incentive is there to actually pay for the crossover.

 

I agree with jaa... nothing sinister in that email.

 

 

 

[Mr Bo Jingles]

I believe the writing is on the wall regarding all NGC registry coins being NGC graded. I have some issues with this as well as with grading in general:

 

First, I have sent coins to be crossed over to BOTH NGC and PCGS respectively and had them rejected for crossover in the same grade. BOTH services have issues with crossing each other's coins over at same grade. I am not sure if it is to make an overall adjustment to the coins that are out there they feel are over-graded or just an attempt by each other to mudsling.

 

Second, per the previous comments, why would somebody send in a PF70 for xover when they know the best they will get back is PF69? That could deflate one's set by 50% or more depending on what they are sending in. Why would NGC be so bold as to say "Nothing you send us in for xover could be perfect even if PCGS says it is." and I believe PCGS has the same rule.

 

I believe there is an (I won't use sinister, but it's def along the same lines) underlying reason for the email. Be prepared to xover all your coins or lose your set standing. I fully believe it is going to happen much quicker than you think.

[Six Mile Rick]

I read the full deal and understand it well. I do have around 10 that I would consider Xing but they are still charging $15 each. If all 10 do not cross then they will CREDIT my account $100--and I will need to send in another submission to use up the credit or use the credit towards membership renewal.

Just another ploy to drum up business. They would have done better by lowering the Xover cost also. My 10 PCGS will remain for now. I may do 5 if I don't find any nice raw coins for my 5 free submissions. Then it would make good sense as I don't know if the free submissions roll over to the next year.

 

HAPPY COIN COLLECTING

[wheat'swheats]

I believe the writing is on the wall regarding all NGC registry coins being NGC graded. I have some issues with this as well as with grading in general:

 

First, I have sent coins to be crossed over to BOTH NGC and PCGS respectively and had them rejected for crossover in the same grade. BOTH services have issues with crossing each other's coins over at same grade. I am not sure if it is to make an overall adjustment to the coins that are out there they feel are over-graded or just an attempt by each other to mudsling.

 

Second, per the previous comments, why would somebody send in a PF70 for xover when they know the best they will get back is PF69? That could deflate one's set by 50% or more depending on what they are sending in. Why would NGC be so bold as to say "Nothing you send us in for xover could be perfect even if PCGS says it is." and I believe PCGS has the same rule.

 

I believe there is an (I won't use sinister, but it's def along the same lines) underlying reason for the email. Be prepared to xover all your coins or lose your set standing. I fully believe it is going to happen much quicker than you think.

If it happens I'll just loose my standing. I really don't give a royal red rats a s s about the standings.I just enjoy collecting the coins and the powers that be can just go pound sand.

wheat

[Mokiechan]

I'm kind of in the Couldn't Care Less category on this issue as long as they continue to let me put anything into the Collection Manager. Although, I will concede I originally joined NGC because they allowed PCGS coins in their registry sets.

 

Malcolm

[SPHansen]

I may do 5 if I don't find any nice raw coins for my 5 free submissions. Then it would make good sense as I don't know if the free submissions roll over to the next year.

 

Rick... they don't. Certificates have an expiration date, so use them!

[coinman1794]

Could this be the harbinger we have all expected

 

Received this in my e-mail tonight. (Title of E-Mail was: NGC CrossOver special for US and world coins) I know we discussed at length when certain PCGS coins were removed from various sets oh, about what, 6 months ago or so. It was brought up at that time that it was in the stars that NGC would become exclusive in only allowing "their" coins into the register sets. So I ask, is this the harbinger we have all been reluctantly expecting and hoping it wouldn't arrive. I mean I have no problem with having all NGC graded coins in my collections but again I state they should have a "special price" for those PCGS coins already in NGC registry sets to be crossed. What does everyone think

I say $3.00 - $5.00/coin to have it crossed if it is in fact already in a registry set here at NGC would be a fair price. Right now crossover price is according to Tier level.

Anyway I'm sure some others here have received that e-mail today/tonight.

 

Mike

 

See more journals by moondoggy

As someone who is not an active participant in the registry, I have a different perspective.NGC does not guarantee that PCGS slabs are accurately graded, so each PCGS crossover has to be evaluated from scratch, cracked out, and holdered in NGC plastic. Why would we ask them to charge less to grade a crossover coin than they do for their own reholder service, for instance? NGC simply believes, as do most, that PCGS is the only other grading service that has a consistent reputation right now, and they can be reasonably certain that they won't find a hidden rim problem when a PCGS coin is cracked out; and so they only take PCGS slabs. But they still have to grade the coin.I hope they are not eliminating PCGS from their U.S. registry, but a reduced rate for multiple submissions would be reasonable if they are.

[CBC]

There's more to this issue than just the NGC tier charges for "crossover". I have several PCGS coins in my Walking LIberty sets. Most of them are worth more as PCGS graded coins than they would be in NGC slabs of the same grade. Right or wrong, that's the way it is. Check auction results and you'll see. So, if they institute an "NGC only" policy, my choices are to (1) pay NGC to significantly reduce the value of my collection, (2) keep the PCGS coins that are "bumped" from my sets and buy duplicate NGC coins to replace them in the sets, or (3) give up and drop out of the Registry. #3 is the only option I'll consider.

[chunk-it]

I don't like the fact that there is a restriction to the minimum grade on crossover at ngc. It's not like that at pcgs. Especially when most pcgs coins book for more and their coin usually bring more money. What does ngc care as long as they get their money.

[jackson64]

EXACTLY !!! as CBC said !! ++++1;

 

Why would anyone even consider crossing over a coin into a slab that will immediately drop the coin's value 15-20% on average immediately??

 

We can argue grading standards and TPG's and registries all day, however in the end there is NO argument on value. When 2 coins of equal grade and mostly equal quality are both for sale- then the PCGS holdered coin will sell for an average of 15 to 20% more. Some particular series--like Walkers and Mercury dimes--the spread is closer to 30%. To even consider crossing into NGC slabs for me would be the same as taking hundred dollar bills and setting them on fire.

 

If NGC also becomes an exclusive slab registry then I predict a flood of crossovers--into PCGS slabs from NGC and not vice versa.........

[mkman123]

To me if NGC registry becomes all NGC coins only, I'm all for it. NGC has been kind to allow PCGS coins for a while now. PCGS doesn't even allow NGC coins in its registry. Its like going to McDonalds and bringing in Burger King food and not buying anything from McDs. I see so many members using NGC registry to put PCGS coins in their and most of their coins are only PCGS. Its like a slap in the face of NGC

[Six Mile Rick]

I may do 5 if I don't find any nice raw coins for my 5 free submissions. Then it would make good sense as I don't know if the free submissions roll over to the next year.

 

Rick... they don't. Certificates have an expiration date, so use them!

 

Scott, I kinda remembered that and honestly I may send in 5 RAW Morgans instead of doing X-overs. I just purchased 4 more PCGS dimes to add to my sets so it really may end up an even count 50/50 when I am finished in a few more years or so. I am not one to go for a slab when it comes to a coin, I like the coin (OR IT'S PRICE ) or don't and that ends the taste test for me.

 

HAPPY COIN COLLECTING

[Ultra Cameo Collection]

I have 9 PCGS coins left in my collection and it was because they were cheap, or were completely unavailable to own from NGC. NGC either doesn't give that specific coin a 70UC or they are really rare from NGC and the dealers who own them want 3x FMV or close.

 

Of the 10 or so odd PCGS coins that I own that have been replaced here recently, they are all inferior to their NGC counterparts with the same grade. It may just be my luck but I own quite a few stinkers in PR70DCAM cases. I know certain series' NGC is extremely tight on where as PCGS is loose and vice versa. We could go on all day with examples. So the logic where PCGS doesn't allow NGC coins in their registry makes as much sense as NGC not accepting PR70 coins for crossover with the same grade.

 

If NGC did ever exclude PCGS coins from their registry it would make total sense as it is fair. I for one would be greatly benefited by their actions as most of my sets would move up tremendously and my #2 washington set would actually become achievable to reach #1

 

I also feel that certain coins from NGC are extremely underrated compared to their PCGS counterparts. How can a NGC POP 10 coin be worth less than a PCGS POP 60 coin of the same year and grade? supply and demand, more collectors collect PCGS coins so when and if the tides turn I will be happy that I have my NGC coins that look better than their PCGS counterparts in at least the sets that I collect.

 

I would go further to posit that if your set has more than 50% PCGS that it should probably be sitting in the PCGS registry, oh and add to that most of those collectors don't bother to add a picture, so we can't even look and drool.

 

looking and drooling is one of my favorite pastimes.

[Merlin8*]

Great Thread…….

 

I moved all my PCGS graded coins from my competitive sets to one custom PCGS set a while back. After following this thread for the last couple of days I looked over my sets to see which was impacted the most by omitting PCGS graded coins and it turned out to be my Kennedy Short Silver Set. I decided to add 4 high grade PCGS coins from my custom set back to my competitive set this evening and as a result moved the set up one spot in the ranking and achieved the much coveted 100% complete designation which was what I really wanted to see anyway. So, out of the 315 photographed coins in my registry 4 are graded by PCGS and they all reside in this set, where I can keep an eye on them….

 

The Mint State issues in this set are tough to find in high grade gem condition and I suppose those would be the coins one might consider for crossing over. This will be a good place to upgrade from but for now, while it lasts, I will enjoy my highest ranked and only complete Kennedy Set to date, 100% and holding at #23!

 

Cheers,

 

Merlin8*

 

[mkman123]

I agree with Wells Collection, if your registry set has over 50% PCGS coins, then put it on the PCGS registry vs here. Annoying to see sets compromised of all PCGS coins, its a slap in the face of NGC. PCGS would never even allow you to do this.

 

Merlin, nice sets!

[CBC]

I'm not in favor of totally excluding PCGS coins, but I think there should be a minimum NGC content requirement for ranking a set in the NGC registry. 50% seems fair. Right now there are lots of sets in the NGC registry that are predominately or exclusively PCGS. The #1 Standing Liberty quarter set for the last nine years - over 80% PCGS. The #1 Franklin half set for the last two years - almost 90% PCGS. And the #1 Walking Liberty half set for the last two years - 100% PCGS. Why would a collector even enter a 100% PCGS collection in the NGC registry? And why would the NGC registry allow it?

[matthewmetcalfe-migration]

I had more than a few PCGS coins disappear from my registry during the change. Nothing like 50% but quite a few that I couldn't find in an NGC grade. While I wasn't happy about it I was able to go to PCGS and build out a registry there for those coins.

 

I try to buy NGC coins but really it's the coin, not the grader that I look at. I could care less about the offer to convert coins from one grader to the other. It's just not worth the hassle. I know what my complete set looks like and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as I thought it would by having to split it into a PCGS and an NGC registry.

 

Still, I'd like a single registry back but that won't happen unless someone else develops the site.

[mkman123]

cbc, exactly how I feel! PCGS doesn't even allow a single NGC coin on its registry, yet NGC is kind enough to allow it and some take advantage of it.....WLH registry with 100% pcgs........hmmm

[BULLY]

Not sure it's a overreaction at all, especially considering the following:

 

1. HISTORY: NGC forced PCGS graded coins from World Registry Sets without much warning at all. In fact, they just finished offering awards to people for "Best in Category," and some of those very winners were collectors whose sets had some or even entire sets which consisted of PCGS graded world coins. Then, just weeks later, NGC pulled the plug and those "winning" sets dropped like rocks.

 

2. DENIAL: NGC continues to offer NO assurance whatsoever that PCGS graded coins will be allowed to remain in the Collectors Society Registry Sets for an indefinite period.

 

While I am hopeful in my recent discovery of NGC's new "filter" to sort sets and rankings based on "NGC ONLY" sets vs. "ALL" sets, I don't consider the action reassuring, since only a statement supporting the action and denying ANY future action would really address the issue.

 

I am honestly less concerned with the competitive stature of sets which include PCGS graded coins, specifically when it comes time for NGC to issue it's annual awards for sets. I think that's their call, and I don't think it's a big deal if they only want to bestow awards onto NGC graded coins.

 

However, I am concerned about the continued inclusion of PCGS graded coins in the Collector's Society Registry Sets, not just for US Coins, but clearly now that a filter exists, why not for World Coins as well?

 

Someone else already said it, but it bears repeating: Going back to the middle of the last decade, NGC specifically marketed it's Collectors Society Registry as one which would be inclusive of both NGC and PCGS graded coins, to attract more collectors, since their main competitor, PCGS, didn't allow this. To do otherwise, is basically what is known as a bait and switch and not what is desired by long term collectors, lifelong collectors, collectors who've used the Registry for a long time, and for collectors who buy the coin, not the holder.

 

[BULLY]

Why would someone include PCGS coins?

 

Here's the answer: Because NGC marketed to them and hundreds or thousands others to do just that!

 

NGC didn't market their registry as the NGC Registry, they marketed their set manager as the "COLLECTORS SOCIETY" (Just look in the upper left corner of the page on which this posting appears). You may also notice that when you go to the ngccoin.com site, you select "Collectors Society" to get into your account.

 

So, why would NGC allow it? Because they built it and we came.

 

In fairness, since I said it in another posting, I will confess that I'm less concerned with the competitive stature of sets which include PCGS graded coins, specifically when it comes time for NGC to issue it's annual awards for sets. If NGC only wants to bestow awards onto NGC graded coins, I don't think it's the end of the world.

 

However, I AM MUCH MORE concerned about the continued inclusion of PCGS graded coins in the Collector's Society Registry Sets, not just for U.S. Coins, but clearly now that a filter exists, why not allow PCGS coins to return to World Coins as well?

 

Doesn't the existence of the filter demonstrate not only NGC ability, but the ability of ANY member of the Collectors Society to sort rankings at will?

 

I'm not in favor of totally excluding PCGS coins, but I think there should be a minimum NGC content requirement for ranking a set in the NGC registry. 50% seems fair. Right now there are lots of sets in the NGC registry that are predominately or exclusively PCGS. The #1 Standing Liberty quarter set for the last nine years - over 80% PCGS. The #1 Franklin half set for the last two years - almost 90% PCGS. And the #1 Walking Liberty half set for the last two years - 100% PCGS. Why would a collector even enter a 100% PCGS collection in the NGC registry? And why would the NGC registry allow it?

[BULLY]

I think this author makes an excellent point about his coins, and I'd like to expand on it.

 

Numismatics is not an "us" vs. "them" like some collectors seem to want to make it, perhaps by envy, perhaps by the marketing ploys of the Collectors Society Registry and the awards that NGC bestows upon winning sets, or for some other reason which we may not yet fully understand.

 

Numismatics was once a hobby with members who exhibited a spirit of CAMARADERIE which was without compare. There were lots of brick and mortar coin shops across the nation, even in small towns, and collectors came to know their owners and vice versa, coin clubs formed among students, scouts, adults, in communities across the country, with exhibits, shows, and many local and regional publications creating a lively community.

 

Now, it's gone digital. Coin shops are a thing of the past. It's usmint.gov, eBay, ModernCoinMart vs. ParadiseMint, and apparently PCGS vs. NGC.

 

Somehow, community isn't QUITE the same when it moves online. So many things are lost in electronic communication, including tone, and perhaps more importantly, inhibition. We are more likely to scream at faceless usernames with our fingertips at a keyboard in the middle of the night than we would ever consider doing so if we were meeting with fellow collectors, let's go so far as calling then FRIENDS, in a library meeting room, or in homes which alternated each month.

 

This sense of etiquette or even common courtesy is a thing of the past, thanks in large part to going digital -- gone the way of those local coin shops.

 

Passion is a great thing, passion for numismatics an ever greater thing, as so many of us would agree.

 

Have we forgotten what this author wrote? A simple wisdom of our hobby? We should buy the coin, not the holder. This collector, this numismatist, lost PCGS from his world coin sets when NGC erased them, quite a few he said. He wasn't happy, and while he seeks NGC coins, he cars most about the coin, not the third party grader that matters most.

 

This collector offers another piece of wisdom that NGC doesn't want us to realize, even as they offer emails trying to LURE collectors to crossover their coins and not be hit with costs of the coins don't make the grade to crossover -- this collector knows that he doesn't want to convert his coins from one grader to another, because it's just not worth the hassle, and he's right.

 

I'd like to add that it's not worth the COST, and the only one who gains is NGC, not the hobby, not the Collectors Society, certainly not we collectors.

 

This collector offered many words of wisdom, I thank him for those words, and I hope others will take notice rather than falling victim to NGC's quest to increase its profits through the Crossover service.

 

I had more than a few PCGS coins disappear from my registry during the change. Nothing like 50% but quite a few that I couldn't find in an NGC grade. While I wasn't happy about it I was able to go to PCGS and build out a registry there for those coins.

 

I try to buy NGC coins but really it's the coin, not the grader that I look at. I could care less about the offer to convert coins from one grader to the other. It's just not worth the hassle. I know what my complete set looks like and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as I thought it would by having to split it into a PCGS and an NGC registry.

 

Still, I'd like a single registry back but that won't happen unless someone else develops the site.

[BULLY]

I'm with Jack on NOT crossing the handful of PCGS slabbed coins he has, some Franklin and Kennedy Halves, along with some others.

 

Where I disagree is that I DON'T hope that NGC figures out a balance of fees for those who hold large quantities of PCGS coins.

 

THIS REALLY IS NOT DIRECTED AT JACK, I INTEND THIS FOR COLLECTORS IN GENERAL:

 

Honestly, I think it's just plain silly, and a waste of money unless you've really got it to burn on grading fees rather than coins, to spend it on Crossover Service for coins that are already graded by a 1st Tier Third Party Grading Service (PCGS), just to have them graded by ANOTHER 1st Tier Third Party Grading Service (NGC).

 

If you managed to come across coins that are in old ANACS or ICG holders, I can understand the desire to have them graded by NGC, or even by PCGS for that matter. As I understand it, they wouldn't even be eligible for crossover, you'd be starting from scratch, since these companies aren't in the same league.

 

However, to throw good money on top of GOOD MONEY makes no financial sense. Does a PCGS graded coin fetch LESS at auction than a comparably graded NGC coin? Not so much.

 

Check with the carrier who covers your coin collection, and ask, in the event of a loss, if the value varies for your coins whether it's MS65 by PCGS or MS65 by NGC, and see what you get for the answer?

 

When you see coins for sale or auction, or even look up recent auction prices, do you find that while there are some strange outliers, recent sales for comparably graded coins seem to be close regardless of the grader, PCGS vs. NGC specifically?

 

The only winner if collectors start MASS crossovers? NGC.

 

Hi Mike... Yes, I rec'd the same message. Since I was new in this adventure back some six months ago, and taking some of the original comments to learn/heed from, I switched exclusively to NGC certified coins.

 

I do have some PCGS slabbed coins, Franklins, Kennedy and a few other types, but I will not be crossing over these coins.

 

I do agree with you in regards to a reduced price.

 

I do see, however, a tough situation brewing: How does NGC validate original PCGS slabs that were removed compared to new submission of PCGS slabbed coins? Since the original registered PCGS slabbed coins were removed from registries back some six months ago to present. IMHO

 

I hope NGC figures out a balance of fees for those who hold large quantities of original PCGS registered coins.

 

Best wishes,

 

Jack