Bullion? Semi-Numismatic? Numismatic?

[John Maben]

A historical look at the evolution of bullion investing and collecting, posted with permission from coinweek.com:

 

Defining The Line Between Precious Metals and Numismatics

 

By Jay Rudo

 

A question that collectors often ask is what makes a coin bullion and what makes a coin numismatic. There are a lot of different factors involved to answer this question and this article will look at many of them. Having spent a career dealing in both rare coins and bullion I feel I can offer a lot of perspective on the subject. There are times that a coin that is designed to trade as bullion but catches the collector’s interest and some very interesting things happen. The classic example of bullion coins becoming numismatic is the Silver Eagle program started by the US mint in 1986. These coins are .999 fine 1 ounce silver coins struck in uncirculated and proof condition. The US Mint never designed the uncirculated coins to be collector coins but as a vehicle to buy bullion. They do not even offer them directly to the public but instead they are sold to large Mint distributors who in turn sell them to investors, coin dealers, and bullion dealers.

 

From the silver eagle program’s inception they became a favorite with coin collectors. Collectors bought them in massive quantities. They put them into their collections and kept up with the series year after year with great enthusiasm. As time went on and the market matured, quality became more and more important. The grading services started grading and encapsulating silver eagles. The fact that NGC alone has graded and encapsulated close to 5,000,000 silver eagles is a testament to the coins popularity. Certainly the premium that a person pays for a certified silver eagle excludes it from being defined as a bullion coin in the classic sense of the term, particularly if the coin is graded as Mint State or Proof 70.

 

For example the current retail price for a 2012 silver eagle graded MS70 by NGC is $98. The coin has $28 of intrinsic silver value based on the spot price of silver today (6.20.2012). Does this mean that silver eagles are sometimes numismatic coins? Yes. Does this mean that silver eagles are not bullion? No. Confused? Let’s take a look at a few definitions, a brief history of the gold bullion business, and see how coin collecting has influenced the market.

 

We define precious metal bullion as: Any refined precious metal, such as gold, silver, platinum, and palladium, which is in a state or condition where its value depends primarily upon its precious metal content and not its form. The majority of the time when purchasing bullion it can be found in the form of bars or coins. The value of the item directly corresponds with the rise and fall of the value of the underlying metal. If someone has a 1 oz. gold bullion coin and the price of gold goes up $5 an ounce then the price of the coin also increases by approximately $5, whether it is retail or wholesale pricing.

 

The premium over the precious metal price comes from: The cost of manufacturing, profit by the seller, and market conditions. As a general rule the smaller the coin the higher the premium will be over spot. The theory here is that it takes less effort to make a single one ounce gold coin than it does to make ten 1/10 ounce gold coins. It also takes the same effort to sell a one ounce gold coin as it does a 1/10 ounce gold coin. One ounce Gold Eagles sell for approximately 4% to 5% over its spot price. 1/10 ounce gold eagles sell for approximately 15% over its spot price.

 

As a rule of thumb I feel that in order to be considered purely bullion, a coin or bar has to trade at 7% or less above its metal content to qualify. Coins that sell at between say 8% and 20% over the value of the metal could be labeled as “bullion related” or “semi-numismatic”. Once over a 20% premium I think you’re into Numismatic territory even though the value of the precious metal still plays a major role in the overall value of the coin. Even though these numbers may seem arbitrary, I feel that most in the marketplace would accept this definition and to put it simply, it makes sense.

 

A question we are often asked is “What is the difference between buying coins and buying bars? Which way is better?” For all practical purposes a gold coin is a circular bar, except that they are guaranteed by a government instead of a refinery, and have a denomination. US Eagle coins are all legal tender. The 1 oz Gold Eagle has a denomination of $50.00 struck on the coin. Theoretically, a person could walk into Wal-Mart and spend it for it’s $50.00 face value. Not a wise thing to do, but perfectly legal.

 

Gold coins are also struck in large quantities and struck efficiently enough, that their premiums are competitive with bars. Bars are produced by large refineries or banks. Often each bar comes with its own serial number. In addition, the premium over gold for smaller bars is not that much different than commonly traded bullion coins. It is for this reason and because the coins are struck by a country’s government, many if not most prefer coins.

 

The one exception to this rule is the investor that wants to buy very large quantities of bullion. Kilo bars or 100 oz bars carry a very small premium and you will get the most metal for your money. The disadvantage to a gold bar of this size is that when you go to sell it you have to sell it all at once. It’s all or nothing. You can’t break apart the bar and sell it one ounce at a time, like you would be able to if you bought 1 oz coins. There are also a limited number of dealers that will buy the bars without an assay which requires time and money. Another disadvantage of bars is that in some states dealers have to hold the bars for a certain period of time after purchasing because they are governed by the secondhand precious metals laws. They are required to report their purchase and hold the bar the same way as used jewelry.

 

The bullion business in the United States is a relatively new business. Many people don’t even know that it used to be illegal for Americans to own more than 5 ounces of bullion gold. Until 1933 the United States was on the gold standard and when we were taken off it became illegal. There were some exceptions made for people that used gold in their occupation such as dentists, artists, and sign makers. In addition it was legal to own gold coins that had a numismatic or collectors value. It’s hard to believe but at the time Americans were required to turn in their gold for dollars that were not backed by gold. I remember my Grandfather telling me about how he turned in his gold coins without a second thought. Imagine what would happen today if the government asked us to turn in our gold. It would make occupy Wall Street look like a walk through the White House rose garden. The deadline to turn in the gold was May 1, 1933 and after that the official price of gold went from about $20 an ounce to $35 an ounce. The official price of gold after the May 1st deadline skyrocketed from $20 to $35 an ounce: an increase of about 75%. After considering inflation, $35 is about $600 today to give some perspective on the price jump.

 

The bullion business was virtually nonexistent until 1964 when the US Mint announced that due to the high cost of silver, circulated coins would no longer consist of 90% silver. The mint began to produce coins in a much more cost effective way with the use of clad. This sparked interest in precious metals as an investment. Even though it was still illegal to buy bullion gold during that time period, people found ways though the options were limited. There was the British sovereign, French 20 Franc, Mexican 50 peso and the Austrian 100 Corona. That was it! Then in 1967 a coin was struck that changed everything. South Africa began production of the one ounce gold Krugerrand. This was the first time that a government backed coin was available in a one ounce denomination and it was an instant success!

 

After a 41 year gold bullion prohibition, it finally became legal to own bullion on August 15, 1974. As a result the Krugerrand’s mintage went from 40,000 coins in 1967, to 3,204,000 in 1974! Other countries quickly followed in South Africa’s footsteps. In 1979 Canada came out with the gold Maple Leaf, followed by the silver maple leaf in 1988. Mexico created the gold Libertad in 1981, and the silver Libertad followed in 1982.

 

The demand for bullion was growing and this caught the interest of the US Mint. In 1986 they launched the Gold and Silver Eagle program. This program completely changed the landscape of the bullion business and had a great impact on coin collecting. It consisted of:

•

1 oz silver eagles

 

•

1/10 oz gold eagles

 

•

¼ oz gold eagles

 

•

½ oz gold eagles

 

•

1 oz gold eagles.

 

It was an instant success and sales of the one ounce coins broke five million the first year. In 1997 the program was expanded to platinum coins. In 2006 the bullion program was expanded even more to include 1oz .999 fine gold Buffalo coins.

 

While the eagle program was designed to offer American bullion to buyers in an easy and affordable fashion, some interesting things developed that no one could not predict. Collectors became students of the series. Issues like mintage, quality, and varieties came into play to turn some of that bullion into numismatic items desired by collectors.

 

Credible third party grading by NGC and PCGS came into play in the late 1980’s to change the way many numismatists collected coins. As the market for bullion type coins evolved collectors began to seek the highest possible grade with many willing to pay a substantial sum to get them. This is where the grading companies stepped in and started grading modern bullion coins. As the market matured the demand for Mint State 70 (MS70) and Proof 70 coins exploded. Now remember these coins were mostly struck in massive quantities, and except for proofs were intended for the bullion buyer, not for collectors. The mint was looking to offer a quality bullion product. Their intention was not to make perfect coins.

 

In some series of coins, finding a coin that grades MS70 is virtually impossible. The most dramatic example of this is the 1999 silver eagle. The mint struck 7,408,640 coins. Of the total mintage, NGC has graded 71,906 of them. As of today, only 78 have been graded MS70! A single 1999 Silver Eagle graded MS70 by NGC sold at auction for $24,150! You read that right… $24,150!!! The exact same coin in Mint State 69, one point less, retails for $59. Extreme? Yes. That is the point. The numismatic value in bullion coins is certainly real and supported by a huge number of collectors that want to build a collection they can be proud of. There are many wrinkles and intricacies like this one in this dynamic and ever changing market.

 

Getting a graded 70 isn’t the only way a bullion coin becomes numismatic. Sometimes collector’s value is created by good old fashion rarity. Many modern coins have very low mintages. Some of the ½ ounce uncirculated gold coins have low mintages and are highly collectible. The coins struck between 1988 and 1992 are the most desirable. Here is a breakdown of the years, the mintage, and their approximate retail prices for coins that grade MS65 or better:

•

1988 Mintage 45,000 $1,475

 

•

1989 Mintage 44,829 $1,475

 

•

1990 Mintage 31,000 $1,850

 

•

1991 Mintage 24,100 $2,450

 

•

1992 Mintage 54,404 $1,145

 

Additional mintage information can be found here: www.moderncoinmart.com/mintages

 

To give some perspective, a 2012 half-ounce Gold Eagle’s retail price is $882 based on a gold spot of 1,620.

 

A third way that bullion becomes numismatic is through minting varieties. There are two noteworthy times that the US Mint unintentionally created variety coins: the 1999-W $5 & $10 Gold Eagles and the 2008-W Reverse 2007 Silver Eagles.

 

In 1999 there was a huge wave of buying as a result of the panic created by Y2K. Many people believed that our computers would all crash and chaos would ensue when the calendar went from 1999 to 2000. In the rush to produce enough coins to meet demand the US Mint used unfinished dies that had the W mint mark and were meant to strike proof coins. No US bullion coin is supposed to have a mint mark. These unfinished proof dies with the “W” mint mark were used to strike uncirculated $5 gold eagles and $10 gold eagles, and the result was very valuable and highly sought after coins. Eric Jordan and John Maben, authors of “The Top 50 Most Popular Modern Coins” estimated that there are only 6,000 of these coins each. In Mint State 69 condition the retail prices quoted in the book are $900 for the $5 coin and $1600 for the $10 coin.

 

The second major variety created by the US Mint bullion program was the 2008-W Reverse of 2007 Silver Eagle. In 2008, the Mint slightly changed the shape of the lettering on the reverse of the Silver Eagle. There were some dies left over from the year before that someone, hopefully with the intention of saving the mint money, used for 2008-W coins. Again using the “Top 50” book as a reference, it is estimated that there were less than 46,318 of this particular variety produced. The retail value of this coin in an NGC MS 69 is $500.

 

There are also times when coins begin as numismatic issues and then evolve into bullion coins. It looks like, at this moment in time, Proof Gold Eagles that are uncertified and of average quality fit in that category, though that could well change. Along with the uncirculated eagle program the US Mint struck proof gold, silver and platinum coins that they sell directly to the public. The Mint charges premiums for these coins that are higher than the uncirculated version since the coins were struck for collectors in proof condition and were housed in velvet boxes.

 

In the past year the premium on proof gold eagles in the secondary market has collapsed. When I refer to a secondary market I mean a place where you sell your coins after buying them from the mint or company that initially distributes a product. The mint sells proof eagle coins directly to the collector at a higher rate over the spot prices. When the initial buyer goes to sell their coins, at this time due to current weakness, they won’t get the premium they paid over the spot price of gold back.

 

Right now proof gold eagles are worth gold spot price plus roughly $100 an ounce on a wholesale basis. Historically that is a low premium. For someone that wanted to own bullion it might be a good play. There have been times in the past three years that the premium has been over $300 an ounce. Does that mean history will repeat itself? No one knows, but right now uncertified proof American Gold Eagles are trading almost at the equivalent prices of their uncirculated, bullion counterparts. It’s hard to imagine the premium over spot ever going lower than today’s level.

 

There is another situation we often see where numismatic coins become more characteristic of bullion coins. Many countries around the world issue gold coins to sell to collectors. These sets are often sold at high premiums over their metal content. While some are winners, many of these sets do not hold their value and when the original buyer goes to sell them they do not get that premium back. The sets then trade for their bullion value.

 

I often see beautiful sets from Great Britain, Canada, Mexico, Australia, and South Africa, that originally sold for double or triple the actual gold content. I am often able to buy these from other dealers for 5%-10% over gold. It’s sad to see but it is also a great opportunity for someone that wants to buy a collector’s item, but also wants the comfort level that comes with buying precious metals.

 

The bullion related or semi-numismatic category is one where the coins are in between, hence they could be considered both bullion and numismatic. These are coins whose premiums exceed that of traditional bullion, have collector value, but whose price is still directly associated with the underlying metal. An example of this is the 2012-W Gold Buffalo graded Proof-70 by NGC. Here is a current year coin graded as high as possible by one of the major grading services and it carries a significant premium of gold spot. If gold goes up a few dollars or down a few dollars the price doesn’t change. If there is a bigger swing, maybe $50, the price of the Buffalo coin will go up and down accordingly. Another example we see is the First Spouse Gold coins where except for the most scarce issues, the price is still directly associated with the underlying metal.

 

There are many different ways to look at buying modern bullion and numismatic coins. This article gives and overview but it is only the beginning. The best advice I can give a buyer is to keep reading articles like this. Find areas that you like to collect and learn all you can. You will find with a little effort you will know more about your area of expertise than some of the dealers you buy from. That increases the chances of making great buys and contributes to a rewarding hobby.

 

Jay Rudo has worked in the coin and precious metals business for his entire adult life. After a decade of working as a bullion trader and numismatist for one of the top bullion companies in America, and operating his own successful coin company, he went into partnership with John Maben in 2007 and is now the President of JMRC/ ModernCoinMart. He is a member of the American Numismatic Association, Professional Numismatists Guild, and Florida United Numismatists.

 

 

 

[James_OldeTowne]

A historical look at the evolution of bullion investing and collecting:

 

http://www.coinweek.com/featured-news/defining-the-line-between-precious-metals-and-numismatics/

 

Interesting read with a timeline of facts and an opinion on how modern bullion coins are not all "just bullion".

I'd say that in the context of marketing them, "modern bullion coins" are indeed not "just bullion", but are "just bullion plus hype".

 

(Of course, that can be said about a lot of things.)

[e1cnr]

I think they are just as cool as modern commemoratives (or coinage) - and am willing to pay more than face or melt for fine examples.

[FishyOne]

My personal comment would be: modern bullion proof coins are not all "just bullion".

 

Very, very few of the modern bullion MS coins are more than "just bullion" to me.

 

YMMV.

[$ilverHawk]

John,

 

After reading the cited article, I must ask, what is the purpose of your post? Jay Rudo, the author of the article, is an executive at your company. Modern Coin Mart does in fact make a primary market in modern coins, therefore, I see the cited article as marketing. Nothing wrong with trying to convince collectors that certain modern coins are scare in MS70 grades and therefore more than "bullion" coins and worthy of being collected as numismatic rarities.

 

The problem is that the numismatic value depends solely upon the assigned grade populations. Specifically, MS69 vs. MS70 or PF69 vs. PF70. And those populations are determined solely by the TPGs. The vast majority of experienced numismatists could not clearly determine the difference between a modern coin that has been assigned a grade of MS/PF69 from a grade of MS/PF70.

 

Due to US Mint manufacturing quality standards the difference between MS/PF 69 and 70 is simply a coin toss. Pun intended.

 

In the rare instance where the populations of specific year and mint dates or errors lead to a small population, we are still left with the fact that the TPGs determine relative rarity by their assignment of the 69 or 70 grade.

 

Carl

[John Maben]

I'd be happy to answer this.

 

The fact that I buy and sell moderns does not automatically mean one can assume that everything I do or post here is an effort to market my goods. I can see how one would assume that in the "Top 50" thread, though even there the intent is to talk moderns and provide factual information along with opinions that would interest collectors of moderns.

 

Jay Rudo hits some really key points in this article, and while he is the President of MCM that does not mean anything he writes is a marketing piece. Everyone will have a different take away on what the most important points were.... Personally, I was thrilled to see someone attempt to delineate the line between where a bullion coin ends and a coin with numismatic value begins because I think it is a question that begs to be answered.

 

As for "convincing" collectors that 70's have added value or to buy them we don't do that and never have. That decision is left to the buyer. Ultimately, the marketplace determines where value should be added in the form of prices realized. There are plenty of sellers of classics and moderns on websites and eBay that use off the charts hype, doomsday scenarios, and price predictions based on nothing to lure buyers. If you've followed MCM since 2005 you'd know that isn't us and the no pressure no nonsense approach is why we've had such growth.

 

The numerical grade a coin is assigned does have a serious impact on value but there are plenty of moderns labeled bullion that have premiums well beyond bullion prices regardless of if they are certified and encapsulated. As the article points out, there are also some that were issued as collectible and sold at a premium by issuing mints and now are worth only the bullion value.

 

The marketplace is the end determinant.

 

 

[PerryHall]

Most Morgan and Peace dollars are "just bullion coins". Most Liberty and Saint Gaudens double eagles are "just bullion coins".

[John Maben]

Most Morgan and Peace dollars are "just bullion coins". Most Liberty and Saint Gaudens double eagles are "just bullion coins".

 

Are they? Where does the line between bullion and numismatic begin and end? Is there a middle ground?

 

I think one example JR gave in the article was unc $25 half ounce gold eagles. There are several that fetch serious premiums as collectible coins and the market is not thin, they are easily saleable raw. While the intent was to produce them as bullion they no longer fit the criteria as bullion if one is buying bullion soley for its precious metal content.

 

Low grade circ Morgan and Peace dollars and Double Eagles? Not sure. In the current environment, I suppose they are "just bullion".

[RWB]

He's promoting his business. Spam.

[James_OldeTowne]

I think one example JR gave in the article was unc $25 half ounce gold eagles. There are several that fetch serious premiums as collectible coins and the market is not thin, they are easily saleable raw.

I can buy that. If some coins in a series begin to become collectable, not due to hype, but due to developing collector desire, then yes, they are numismatic items.

 

"Grade" alone, however, does not convert a bullion item into a numismatic item.

 

A 2009 $25 gold mega-nugget might be worth $100 in raw UNC condition. If "MS-70" printed on a slab is required for it to sell for $900, that does not mean it is suddenly a numismatic item. It merely means that the buyer paid $100 for a mega-nugget (it's bullion value), and $800 for a plastic holder with a number on it.

 

The "article" appears to argue that somehow, a slab turns a gold nugget into a numismatic item if the slab happens to have a high grade on it, and a high grade can be hyped into a buyer's premium.

[John Maben]

He's promoting his business. Spam.

 

What I'd really like to say to you sir, I can not do on these boards. So I'll just say you're wrong.

 

This article is lengthy, makes many good points, and does little or nothing to promote my business which we already do well via paid advertising.

 

Take your axe and grind it somewhere else.

 

John

[coinman_23885]

Most Morgan and Peace dollars are "just bullion coins". Most Liberty and Saint Gaudens double eagles are "just bullion coins".

 

For a lot of the common, lower grade material, I completely.

[RWB]

"Dear John:"

 

Spam by any other name is still spam, as was your previous spam. That qualifies for "Spam A Lot" or maybe it's "Spam a Cide" or "Spam O Ko PITA."

 

"Listen, don't mention the spam. I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it all right. “Spam.”’ Ops, did I say "spam?" I didn't mean to say "spam," it's not "spam" really, is it? After all it's just "spam" I mean not "spam" not really "spam." Just ignore that part about the "spam." It's off anyway. Yes, it's off the menu. Oh, ‘What's off?’ Oh, "spam" of course, "spam is off, ‘Did I say "spam?" I didn't mean to say "spam" I meant "spam" of course....’

 

Hmmm---"Wir wollen ein Auto mieten?",

 

(With apologies to John Cleese and Connie Booth.)

 

[John Maben]

"Dear John:

"He's promoting his business. Spam."

 

OK..... whatever, I think you said that already. If you actually took the time to read the entire article and feel that way, so be it. I don't. I suppose ANY comment I make or that anyone that works here makes on ANY modern coin could be construed as self promotion by someone, somewhere.

 

Completely ridiculous and uncalled for RWB.

 

John

[RWB]

Only when you're promoting your spam..

[ericj96-migration]

I honestly don’t understand why if a classic dealer like Bowers and Merena and their associates writes on topics they know a great deal about it is well accepted but if a moderns dealers such as John Maben and Jay write about an area of the market that they have special competence in they get hammered by those with a bad attitude.

 

Maybe it’s a we hate anything struck since 1964 thing or maybe its just no class. I am not certain. Classics are judged based on many of the same criteria that many of you criticize.

 

All the way back to 2008 when I wrote my first book on series development and how it applies to picking promising young eagles some people would reject what I wrote before reading it, some were even handed and learned a few things and dumped the rest and some took it all and ran with it. In the end John and I want to see people that enter into collecting to be well informed and not get hurt. I do as much research on the long term behavior of series and current mint activity as anyone else I know of and to suggest that our work (John, Jays and myself) has no value is nuts.

 

[brg5658]

I'm confused.

 

John, I recently saw announcements that "MCM is now selling bullion". What did you call the hundreds (or thousands) of ASEs you have been selling for the past umteen years on MCM? Seems that you made up your mind that if a bullion piece is put in NGC or PCGS plastic then it "becomes" a numismatic item? Whereas if you trade/buy a full roll of raw ASEs then they are bullion? I don't see the distinction....

 

I agree with RWB on this topic. I live a mere 35 miles from the SPAM museum if anyone ever wants to come visit.

 

[jom]

Why the need to "label" coins either way? Who cares?

 

If you like the design or whether you want gold (or silver) as some investment hedge buy the coin. If you want to pay huge premiums for "hype" go right ahead. Want one of those "rare" Jackie Robinsons by all means. To each their own.

 

But still...who cares what you call it?

 

jom

[John Maben]

I'm confused.

 

John, I recently saw announcements that "MCM is now selling bullion". What did you call the hundreds (or thousands) of ASEs you have been selling for the past umteen years on MCM? Seems that you made up your mind that if a bullion piece is put in NGC or PCGS plastic then it "becomes" a numismatic item? Whereas if you trade/buy a full roll of raw ASEs then they are bullion? I don't see the distinction....

 

I agree with RWB on this topic. I live a mere 35 miles from the SPAM museum if anyone ever wants to come visit.

 

My opinions and JR's are mostly the same but I don't think it's the holder that makes the distinction it's the percentage over melt that a coin trades for in my mind, and I believe that was his point as well.

 

You guys might already understand the basics but MANY do not. A newbie gets easily confused by a term so broadly used as "bullion". A buyer seeking only "bullion" would probably not want a coin that routinely sells at 20% over melt.

 

Call that coin bullion with a premium, semi-numismatic, call it whatever you like but you can't deny it's existence.

 

John

[FishyOne]

I honestly don’t understand why if a classic dealer like Bowers and Merena and their associates writes on topics they know a great deal about it is well accepted but if a moderns dealers such as John Maben and Jay write about an area of the market that they have special competence in they get hammered by those with a bad attitude.

 

Maybe it’s a we hate anything struck since 1964 thing or maybe its just no class. I am not certain. Classics are judged based on many of the same criteria that many of you criticize.

 

All the way back to 2008 when I wrote my first book on series development and how it applies to picking promising young eagles some people would reject what I wrote before reading it, some were even handed and learned a few things and dumped the rest and some took it all and ran with it. In the end John and I want to see people that enter into collecting to be well informed and not get hurt. I do as much research on the long term behavior of series and current mint activity as anyone else I know of and to suggest that our work (John, Jays and myself) has no value is nuts.

 

Thank you. Well said.

 

FYI: I have done business with MCM several times over the last few years and received exemplary service.

[mtnstyne]

Most Morgan and Peace dollars are "just bullion coins". Most Liberty and Saint Gaudens double eagles are "just bullion coins".

 

Are they? Where does the line between bullion and numismatic begin and end? Is there a middle ground?

 

Bullion was never intended for circulation and virtually all specimens are mint state...think ASE's. Remove them from the plastic shield with the grade on it and you can't tell them apart. The numismatic value only resides on the plastic.

 

Morgans, Peace, and St. Gaudens actually circulated to some extent. You will never find an MS70 specimen and if you remove one from the plastic container it will still have numismatic value.

 

Just my opinion but there's a distinct line.

[RWB]

If one looks at coin use, then gold $10 and $20 were just a convenient form of bullion. The Treasury preferred to export gold bars - cheaper, less loss in handling and easier to track -- but Congress insisted on large denomination gold coins as some sort of convenience for bankers and to back gold certificates.

 

(All US gold coins were circulating bullion - but the small denominations got used in retail commerce, whereas $10 and $20 seldom circulated.)

 

[e1cnr]

Here is an article giving another point of view from what must be a bulk or bullion bar dealer.

 

high grade plastic a scam

 

 

I personally would not pay big premiums, but have no objections to people that do - heck, people collect what they like. But any precious metal purchase is truly a speculative investment (I guess all investments these days are speculative, hoping you can sell before that market crashes).

[$ilverHawk]

The "existence" is purely based on marketing. It most certainly is the holder that makes the distinction. MS/PF69 vs. MS/70 as determined by the TPGs makes the distinction.

 

Please refer to my previous post to which you did not fully respond. The grading of modern coins is a sham. There is absolutely no perceivable difference between a MS/PF69 and a MS/PF70 grade.

 

Modern Coin Mart, as well as all other marketers that sell modern coins have been engaged in selling TPG certified modern coins based on artificial populations. I say artificial based on my previous arguments.

 

Absolutely nothing wrong with trying to market your position on modern coins. But please respond to my question. Can you or any other knowledgeable numismatist consistently define

the difference between a MS/PF 69 from a MS/PF 70 in any modern coin?

 

Offer all the facts you have, it still comes down to the grades assigned by the TPGs which result in the population reports. That sir is the issue.

 

Carl

 

[James_OldeTowne]

Carl, perfectly stated, and I agree 100%.

 

I looked at a certified MS-70 modern commemorative dollar yesterday, and as usual, it had an obvious defect that should have kept it at MS-69 -- or better yet RAW.

[James_OldeTowne]

Here is an article giving another point of view from what must be a bulk or bullion bar dealer.

 

high grade plastic a scam

What a FANTASTIC ARTICLE! It is dead-on target and everyone should read it, print it out, and pass it along.

 

It deserves its own thread!

 

Duly bookmarked.

[coinman1794]

Carl, perfectly stated, and I agree 100%.

 

I looked at a certified MS-70 modern commemorative dollar yesterday, and as usual, it had an obvious defect that should have kept it at MS-69 -- or better yet RAW.

 

But James, how many times can we say that about a classic, certified coin, too?

[jom]

Carl, perfectly stated, and I agree 100%.

 

I looked at a certified MS-70 modern commemorative dollar yesterday, and as usual, it had an obvious defect that should have kept it at MS-69 -- or better yet RAW.

 

But James, how many times can we say that about a classic, certified coin, too?

 

There aren't too many classic coins graded MS70.

 

Sure there are many classic coins "over graded"...certainly. But the premiums paid for such small differences in grade are more evident in modern material. Especially at this MS70 level where there really are no differences from a typical MS68...

 

jom

[HCumberdale]

I honestly don’t understand why if a classic dealer like Bowers and Merena and their associates writes on topics they know a great deal about it is well accepted but if a moderns dealers such as John Maben and Jay write about an area of the market that they have special competence in they get hammered by those with a bad attitude.

 

Maybe it’s a we hate anything struck since 1964 thing or maybe its just no class. I am not certain. Classics are judged based on many of the same criteria that many of you criticize.

 

All the way back to 2008 when I wrote my first book on series development and how it applies to picking promising young eagles some people would reject what I wrote before reading it, some were even handed and learned a few things and dumped the rest and some took it all and ran with it. In the end John and I want to see people that enter into collecting to be well informed and not get hurt. I do as much research on the long term behavior of series and current mint activity as anyone else I know of and to suggest that our work (John, Jays and myself) has no value is nuts.

 

(thumbs u

 

I fully agree that there is value in your work...but to someone other than myself. To suggest my opinion is the deciding factor in your work's value is nonsense. To suggest that my and my best buddies' opinions are the deciding factor is also nonsense. Furthermore, to suggest that my, my (very important) buddies, and even the entiretly of ANA's opinions are the deciding factor is nonsense.

 

Personally I don't collect graded moderns. If I like a particular design then I'll buy it from the mint, or on the secondary market in OGP. I find TPG moderns to be silly but that's just MY opinion. Certainly your work has value to collectors other than myself and anyone who suggests otherwise suffers from a lack of flexibility.

[James_OldeTowne]

Carl, perfectly stated, and I agree 100%.

 

I looked at a certified MS-70 modern commemorative dollar yesterday, and as usual, it had an obvious defect that should have kept it at MS-69 -- or better yet RAW.

 

But James, how many times can we say that about a classic, certified coin, too?

Heck, I say that about EVERY coin in a 70 holder !