dan carr oregon commem and new 2oz hologram

[MJ]

4) Of obvious origin due to the use of dates which were never originally issued for the coin type.

 

Obvious...? To whom.....? The number of people who would know that this "item" isn't real likely numbers in the thousands, while there are 300+ million people in the United States.

 

I've been collecting coins for 30 years, but I wouldn't know off the top of my head that 1927 wasn't one of the myriad dates made of the Oregon Trail, because classic commems aren't my niche. In fact, the best I could do, without looking, is 26, 33, 36, 37, 38, 39? That's off the top of my head, and I bet a few of them are wrong...

 

(RMA goes to check...)

 

Yep. Missed 28 and 34.

 

This mythological person who would be willing to pay much more than face value or silver scrap value, without knowing anything about it, doesn't exist. How many non-collectors are going to pay $300 for a "1927-D" Oregon Trail half dollar ? None. How many knowledgeable people would be willing to spend $300 for one ? Based on sales so far, less than 100. But suppose years from now, somebody sees one for sale and thinks it is worth the same as other Oregon Trail half dollars in uncirculated condition. They don't bother to look it up in a coin book and they pay $300 for it. Who is to say that they wouldn't actually be getting a good deal on it ? The "1964-D" Peace Dollars that I over-struck sell for $250-$350 on eBay now. My issue price was about $140 to $160.

 

PS:

eBay has banned all sales of Chinese copies. However, eBay continues to allow my over-strikes to be sold as "fantasy" coins.

 

 

As others have said, eBay is *hardly* the final word on the legality of anything.

 

 

I never said eBay was a legal authority. But they make the rules on what can and can not be sold on eBay. That they do not allow "copy" coins, but do allow "fantasy" coins, is an important consideration.

 

And while you are very good at defending why you *can* make these, you've said very little about whether or not you *should*...after all, you know as well as anybody else that someone, somewhere, will mistake these for genuine items someday, and your attitude seems to be "well, that's too bad for them. If they're too stupid to do a little research first, that's on them" while at the same time purposely creating something that is made to look as close to "real" as possible...

 

You don't see the disconnect there....?

 

If I wanted to make something that looked "as real as possible", I wouldn't put a date on the coin that was never issued for that type. To determine the value of a coin, you have to look at the date.

 

My "attitude" is that nobody can predict future values for things. But I produce the over-strikes to high-quality standards, and in very limited numbers, such that they have the potential to be worth as much or more than other original coins of the same type (but different date).

 

Looking at the lists of who has purchased my over-strike coins in the past, it is an impressive array of major numismatic players.

 

DC, your last sentence is a bingo. However since some people don't collect your work it is their mission in life to tell the others what is actually collectable and what is not. What is legal and what is not. What is worthy and what is not. The same as it ever was.

 

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

[dcarr]

...

 

No, you don't. Dateless coins are sold all the time for greater than face value. And again...to the casual observer the date is not enough to identify it as a "fantasy."

 

Dateless coins of the types I over-struck are worth scrap value only. You still have to look at were the date was to determine the value.

 

Again, whether or not something has the potential to worth more than an original numismatic item is not relevant.

 

None of which are valid reasons for why they are ethical. "Because I can" has never been a good reason to do anything. Neither has "because people like it."

 

If nobody is harmed, and the truth is fully disclosed, then it isn't unethical. It is relevant that the over-strikes generally sell for more than issue price in the secondary market.

 

You keep saying that as if it's an all or nothing proposition. Of course nobody's going to spend that amount with NO knowledge...but a little bit of knowledge...? Now there's a dangerous thing.

 

Would I spend $20,000 for a quilt, knowing nothing about quilts? Heavens, no.

 

Could I be persuaded to spend $20,000 on a quilt if the seller said this was Martha Washington's own quilt, saved for centuries, and the only one left that she made with her own two hands....? Especially if there was no obvious way to tell it was not...?

 

Well, I couldn't, but someone might. And that's the rub.

 

In this scenario, who is to blame ? The person who orginally made the quilt, or the person trying to pass it off as Martha Washington's ?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

mark i was not talking about u bashing them the people who were know who they are

 

I'm certainly not bashing Mr. Carr, and never have.

 

On the contrary, I pointed out that his work was very creative.

 

Please do not make the simple mistake of assuming that disagreement is "bashing"....and read my sig line.

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

...

 

No, you don't. Dateless coins are sold all the time for greater than face value. And again...to the casual observer the date is not enough to identify it as a "fantasy."

 

Dateless coins of the types I over-struck are worth scrap value only. You still have to look at were the date was to determine the value.

 

Not true in all cases.

 

Again, whether or not something has the potential to worth more than an original numismatic item is not relevant.

 

None of which are valid reasons for why they are ethical. "Because I can" has never been a good reason to do anything. Neither has "because people like it."

 

If nobody is harmed, and the truth is fully disclosed, then it isn't unethical. It is relevant that the over-strikes generally sell for more than issue price in the secondary market.

 

You keep saying that as if it's an all or nothing proposition. Of course nobody's going to spend that amount with NO knowledge...but a little bit of knowledge...? Now there's a dangerous thing.

 

Would I spend $20,000 for a quilt, knowing nothing about quilts? Heavens, no.

 

Could I be persuaded to spend $20,000 on a quilt if the seller said this was Martha Washington's own quilt, saved for centuries, and the only one left that she made with her own two hands....? Especially if there was no obvious way to tell it was not...?

 

Well, I couldn't, but someone might. And that's the rub.

 

In this scenario, who is to blame ? The person who orginally made the quilt, or the person trying to pass it off as Martha Washington's ?

 

Quite obviously, the person trying to pass it off...however...why make it easy on the charlatan...?

[RockMyAmadeus]

DC, your last sentence is a bingo. However since some people don't collect your work it is their mission in life to tell the others what is actually collectable and what is not. What is legal and what is not. What is worthy and what is not. The same as it ever was.

 

This is being disagreeable for disagreeableness' sake. No one said anything of the sort that you're claiming. No one is "telling" anyone anything, unless EVERYONE (including yourself) is "telling" it. Disagreement isn't "telling" people what to do. Questioning decisions isn't "telling" people what to do.

 

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

 

None? Not a single one...?

 

Drat.

 

And I've been working on my projection all week.

 

Well, it's always nice to have supporters.

[MarkFeld]

...

 

No, you don't. Dateless coins are sold all the time for greater than face value. And again...to the casual observer the date is not enough to identify it as a "fantasy."

 

Dateless coins of the types I over-struck are worth scrap value only. You still have to look at were the date was to determine the value.

 

Not true in all cases.

 

Again, whether or not something has the potential to worth more than an original numismatic item is not relevant.

 

None of which are valid reasons for why they are ethical. "Because I can" has never been a good reason to do anything. Neither has "because people like it."

 

If nobody is harmed, and the truth is fully disclosed, then it isn't unethical. It is relevant that the over-strikes generally sell for more than issue price in the secondary market.

 

You keep saying that as if it's an all or nothing proposition. Of course nobody's going to spend that amount with NO knowledge...but a little bit of knowledge...? Now there's a dangerous thing.

 

Would I spend $20,000 for a quilt, knowing nothing about quilts? Heavens, no.

 

Could I be persuaded to spend $20,000 on a quilt if the seller said this was Martha Washington's own quilt, saved for centuries, and the only one left that she made with her own two hands....? Especially if there was no obvious way to tell it was not...?

 

Well, I couldn't, but someone might. And that's the rub.

 

In this scenario, who is to blame ? The person who orginally made the quilt, or the person trying to pass it off as Martha Washington's ?

 

Quite obviously, the person trying to pass it off...however...why make it easy on the charlatan...?

 

I think that might be the crux of the matter. What precautions, if any, does Mr. Carr need to take, to avoid enabling unscrupulous sellers from taking advantage of the unknowledgeable?

 

While I wish he wasn't making these "fantasy pieces" or whatever you wish to call them, I don't think he is acting unethically. And, due to the (ambiguous?) language of the Hobby Protection Act, I am uncertain whether these items qualify as "counterfeit".

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well this thread has prompted me to place another order...I needed a 1931-S quarter...

 

 

Maybe I'll get one, too!

 

[e1cnr]

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

 

 

 

When someone already has their mind made up, logical counter arguments fall on deaf ears.

 

What was your position again?

[MJ]

DC, your last sentence is a bingo. However since some people don't collect your work it is their mission in life to tell the others what is actually collectable and what is not. What is legal and what is not. What is worthy and what is not. The same as it ever was.

 

This is being disagreeable for disagreeableness' sake. No one said anything of the sort that you're claiming. No one is "telling" anyone anything, unless EVERYONE (including yourself) is "telling" it. Disagreement isn't "telling" people what to do. Questioning decisions isn't "telling" people what to do.

 

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

 

None? Not a single one...?

 

Drat.

 

And I've been working on my projection all week.

 

Well, it's always nice to have supporters.

 

I think you may want to go back in read this thread and the other in it's entirety.I did before I responded. Let's see he's been called a counterfeiter, a law breaker for starters. Maybe I misread that? I have no problem with disagreement. It's just no one has brought many tangible facts to the game on the dissenting side of the debate. There are a lot of what if's though. A lot of snarky comments as well but I come to expect that. My turn to be snarky.

 

I try to support the side of what I believe in.

 

MJ

[MJ]

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

 

 

 

When someone already has their mind made up, logical counter arguments fall on deaf ears.

 

What was your position again?

 

I'm still waiting for the logical part I'm supposed to buy into and that is the point. Please note that I said reexamine and rethink. These two threads here are just a giant replay of the ones that have been running ATS for months on end. Not one point brought up here is new that I haven't heard before. Not a single one. Therefore there is nothing new to change my mind. My mind can be changed. Still waiting.

 

That is my point and my position. Respectfully. MJ

 

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

DC, your last sentence is a bingo. However since some people don't collect your work it is their mission in life to tell the others what is actually collectable and what is not. What is legal and what is not. What is worthy and what is not. The same as it ever was.

 

This is being disagreeable for disagreeableness' sake. No one said anything of the sort that you're claiming. No one is "telling" anyone anything, unless EVERYONE (including yourself) is "telling" it. Disagreement isn't "telling" people what to do. Questioning decisions isn't "telling" people what to do.

 

While I respect others opinions I have not heard one salient point from your naysayers in these couple of current threads to cause me to rethink or to reexamine my position.I see a lot of reaching and spinning . MJ

 

None? Not a single one...?

 

Drat.

 

And I've been working on my projection all week.

 

Well, it's always nice to have supporters.

 

I think you may want to go back in read this thread and the other in it's entirety.I did before I responded.

 

Probably not, since I pretty much took part in it from the get go, so I'm pretty familiar with what everyone said.

 

Let's see he's been called a counterfeiter, a law breaker for starters. Maybe I misread that?

 

This is different than what you originally wrote. Other than "what is legal", nothing that you said had occurred. No one was "telling" anyone anything. And the "counterfeiter" comment came only from one person.

 

But that's never stopped hyperbole before.

 

I have no problem with disagreement. It's just no one has brought many tangible facts to the game on the dissenting side of the debate.

 

If you believe that, then nothing that can be said will change your mind. Many, many "tangible facts" have been "brought to the game", the most important one being "there's no obvious way that these are marked to tell that they are not "real""

 

And there's not. Folks can bring up the "date" issue over and over, but to the uninformed, that date looks precisely like the rest of the dates that already exist...and it's MEANT to look precisely that way.

 

Are you just ignoring that?

 

[dcarr]

... Many, many "tangible facts" have been "brought to the game", the most important one being "there's no obvious way that these are marked to tell that they are not "real""

 

That isn't a " fact", it's a falsehood. Yes, the obvious marking is the date.

 

And there's not. Folks can bring up the "date" issue over and over, but to the uninformed, that date looks precisely like the rest of the dates that already exist...and it's MEANT to look precisely that way. Are you just ignoring that?

 

So an "uninformed" person is shown a "1909-o" Morgan Dollar and they think it is just another silver dollar. Well, in many respects it is just another Morgan silver dollar (but altered). Is this uninformed person going to buy it ? Why would an uninformed person buy something they have no interest in or knowledge of ? If they have just enough knowledge to know that, in general, silver dollars are worth $30, are they going to pay more than $30 for it ? Would they pay more than $200 ? That is highly doubtful without more advanced knowledge (they would no longer be "uninformed" at that point). And, who knows, the maket value at the time might be above $200 anyway (some have already sold in that vicinity).

 

A completely uninformed person, by definition, would know nothing of the Hobby Protection Act. And so they would not know to look for a "Copy" stamp if there was one. The point being, "uninformed" persons will always be out there. There are pitfalls one can fall into inside the world of numismatics, but even greater ones outside. Information is readily available. They have to reach out and take it.

[e1cnr]

Obvious...? To whom.....? The number of people who would know that this "item" isn't real likely numbers in the thousands, while there are 300+ million people in the United States.

 

How many of these millions would know an authentic Oregon Trail is real? If I took one to McDonalds, would they accept it or call the cops?

 

 

I did accidentally try to buy part of my McDonalds purchase once with a foreign coin that got mixed with my spending coins - they said ' I can't take this, it is only a half penny' - oops

 

 

 

MJ, I guess I agree with your position

[dcarr]

Obvious...? To whom.....? The number of people who would know that this "item" isn't real likely numbers in the thousands, while there are 300+ million people in the United States.

 

How many of these millions would know an authentic Oregon Trail is real? If I took one to McDonalds, would they accept it or call the cops?

 

 

I did accidentally try to buy part of my McDonalds purchase once with a foreign coin that got mixed with my spending coins - they said ' I can't take this, it is only a half penny' - oops

 

 

 

MJ, I guess I agree with your position

 

A couple weeks ago I got an email from a person who got one of these coins (shown below) in change at a coffee shop. They searched the internet and found that I had designed it for a coin marketing outfit in 2004 (I did not do the actual engraving, minting, or selling of it, however). They emailed me to find out more about it. It had been circulating as a regular quarter for some time. Nobody seemed to notice or care that it said "copy" on it, until this person noticed the unusual design on it. They didn't even notice the "copy" until I told them about it. I told the finder that this novelty piece is actually worth about $10. They replied that they liked it and plan to keep it.

 

 

[PO01 Commem]

I would like to find a few dateless Oregons for the price of scrap.

[physics-fan3.14]

Well, in many respects it is just another Morgan silver dollar (but altered). Is this uninformed person going to buy it ? Why would an uninformed person buy something they have no interest in or knowledge of ?

 

You are either being naive here or willfully ignorant. An entire industry thrives on this sort of person. Maybe you've heard of QVC, the Home Shopping Network, Telemarketers, and a host of similar operations? The only reason they are in business is because people pay large sums of money for things they have no knowledge of.

[e1cnr]

Well, in many respects it is just another Morgan silver dollar (but altered). Is this uninformed person going to buy it ? Why would an uninformed person buy something they have no interest in or knowledge of ?

 

You are either being naive here or willfully ignorant. An entire industry thrives on this sort of person. Maybe you've heard of QVC, the Home Shopping Network, Telemarketers, and a host of similar operations? The only reason they are in business is because people pay large sums of money for things they have no knowledge of.

 

You should be spending your time trying to protect these people, as they are being scrued far worse than by Dans products.

[RockMyAmadeus]

... Many, many "tangible facts" have been "brought to the game", the most important one being "there's no obvious way that these are marked to tell that they are not "real""

 

That isn't a " fact", it's a falsehood. Yes, the obvious marking is the date

 

I'm sorry, but you simply cannot make that claim.

 

It is obvious to people with a working knowledge of the coin hobby.

 

But there is no way you will ever convince John Q. Public that the date, which is made to look just like all the other dates....there's no obvious "font" difference, no size difference, in every way it's made to look like it would have looked had it been made at the time by the mint....is "obvious."

 

If you wanted to make that claim, you should have made the date obviously different in style from the original design.

 

And if you'd done that, I'd be with you 100%. No one could hold the originals and the fantasies next to one another without noticing the difference.

[jtryka]

No one could hold the originals and the fantasies next to one another without noticing the difference.

 

Except for the fact that there are no originals with which to compare since they do not exist.

[RockMyAmadeus]

Obvious...? To whom.....? The number of people who would know that this "item" isn't real likely numbers in the thousands, while there are 300+ million people in the United States.

 

How many of these millions would know an authentic Oregon Trail is real? If I took one to McDonalds, would they accept it or call the cops?

 

First off, we're not talking about coinage used in exchange. The commems were never made to be used in normal commerce in the first place. Yes, some of them were (usd in commerce), but every single one of them was designed to be sold at a premium as collector's items, not "spending money."

 

Second, call the cops...? Really....?

 

"Burbank police dept, how may I help you?"

 

"Uh...yeah, I work at McDonald's on Victory and Burbank...this guy is trying to pay for his food with fake coins."

 

"Sir, how do you know these are fake?"

 

"Well...they don't look like real coins."

 

"Ok, sir, we'll be right over."

 

Third..what can you buy at McDonald's for 50 cents....?

 

Yes, it is true that some people spend coins that have significant value over their face. It happens all the time. But people are bombarded all the time about the value of silver and gold, and even if they might not know the specifics, the vast majority of folks know that "old" = "maybe valuable."

 

I did accidentally try to buy part of my McDonalds purchase once with a foreign coin that got mixed with my spending coins - they said ' I can't take this, it is only a half penny' - oops

 

 

 

MJ, I guess I agree with your position

 

Right. it's a foreign coin. "Foreign" being the operative word, here.

[RockMyAmadeus]

No one could hold the originals and the fantasies next to one another without noticing the difference.

 

Except for the fact that there are no originals with which to compare since they do not exist.

 

They don't? Did someone melt all the 1926, and 1928, and 1936, etc Oregon Halves...?

 

[RockMyAmadeus]

Well, in many respects it is just another Morgan silver dollar (but altered). Is this uninformed person going to buy it ? Why would an uninformed person buy something they have no interest in or knowledge of ?

 

You are either being naive here or willfully ignorant. An entire industry thrives on this sort of person. Maybe you've heard of QVC, the Home Shopping Network, Telemarketers, and a host of similar operations? The only reason they are in business is because people pay large sums of money for things they have no knowledge of.

 

You should be spending your time trying to protect these people, as they are being scrued far worse than by Dans products.

 

The argument isn't about protecting people from their ignorance, and never has been. The argument is "should people be making something that looks, sounds, feels, smells, tastes precisely like the originals from which they are made, but which has no obvious marking to show that it is not?"

 

If you gathered 10 John Q. Publics, put 9 original Oregon commens and 1 "fantasy piece" on a table, and told them to pick out the one that wasn't "real", how many of them would pick the right one...?

 

 

[RWB]

"Quack, quack, quack......" If it looks and sounds like a duck.... it's either a duck or Groucho Marx....

[RockMyAmadeus]

A couple weeks ago I got an email from a person who got one of these coins (shown below) in change at a coffee shop. They searched the internet and found that I had designed it for a coin marketing outfit in 2004 (I did not do the actual engraving, minting, or selling of it, however). They emailed me to find out more about it. It had been circulating as a regular quarter for some time. Nobody seemed to notice or care that it said "copy" on it, until this person noticed the unusual design on it. They didn't even notice the "copy" until I told them about it. I told the finder that this novelty piece is actually worth about $10. They replied that they liked it and plan to keep it.

 

 

Right...it was circulating as a quarter...ie, no premium over face.

[indiananationals-migration]

 

If you gathered 10 John Q. Publics, put 9 original Oregon commens and 1 "fantasy piece" on a table, and told them to pick out the one that wasn't "real", how many of them would pick the right one...?

 

dont know why dont you test your thery and get back to us

[RockMyAmadeus]

If you gathered 10 John Q. Publics, put 9 original Oregon commens and 1 "fantasy piece" on a table, and told them to pick out the one that wasn't "real", how many of them would pick the right one...?

 

dont know why dont you test your thery and get back to us

 

I would be happy to. Mr. Carr, if you would like to forward me 9 regular Oregon commems, and one "fantasy" piece, I will absolutely conduct such a test, and return the pieces to you at my expense.

 

I might even convince some of the local news folks to do a story about it.

[indiananationals-migration]

i believe you can still buy one from his site but better hurry

[RockMyAmadeus]

i believe you can still buy one from his site but better hurry

 

I have no interest in buying one, as this is only an exercise in scholarship.

 

The offer stands. I will be happy to conduct a focus group and see what happens.

 

I would even be willing to involve the local news folks (and this is the powerful LA market, so it should get picked up nationwide.)

 

 

[indiananationals-migration]

well then this is your chance if you feel he is so wrong try and get it on the news ...all that will do is drive prices even higher after u make a fool out of yourself

[jerseycat10]

I believe Mr Carr has no intent to deceive anyone, nor can I imagine that his fantasy overstrikes have ever deceived anyone. As such, I view them as a supplement to the regular series that we all love to collect.