NGC "overgrades" coins!

[K6AZ]

I got into it with this guy on the eBay boards when I caught him making statements that he knew nothing about. So he decides to go on the offensive manipulating my photos and claiming the coins were "overgraded". Here is the thread:

 

eBay thread

 

And the three auctions where I sold these coins:

 

1884-O NGC MS64 Old Holder

 

1884-O NGC MS64

 

1884-O NGC MS63

[RobertB]

The most interesting thing to me is how the lowest graded of the three sold for more than the two higher graded together. Something to be said for eye appeal?

[Dry]

EF???? AU? GROSSLY overgraded????

Those folks over there are nuts!

I guessed within a point of all the assigned grades at a glance.

 

I think you should disassociate yourself with those guys real quick.

 

 

[K6AZ]

These guys are the ones who sell the raw coins on eBay. You know the "Gem BU" coins that have a hard time grading MS62.

 

What's even more interesting is that these three NGC coins were graded during different times, the first one being in one of the fat old holders. Of course, this guy chose a coin that is usually poorly struck.

[gmarguli]

That's a mind-numbing read. XF? AU? Of course if these were in PCGS slabs they'd be guessing MS68 and moaning that PCGS is so strict.

 

I can't imagine any of these people are real coin collectors.

[K6AZ]

Actually Greg, these guys trash PCGS as well. But they are very disturbed that a group of people "ganged up on ACG", which is what started all this. Typical sellers of junk standing up and defending other sleazy numismatic practices, while trying to tear down and trash legitimate numismatic enterprises.

[TomB]

I think your last post sums up the "discussion" quite well.

[K6AZ]

It's all pretty transparent Tom. That is why I haven't bothered to respond there, it needs no response since their motives are so obvious.

 

Hey, lookee! 100 posts for me!

[spy88]

Having never known eBay had such a forum, I think I was better off before you put up your thread! Now I'm going to try vewy vewy hard to forget what I wish I didn't know but do! I think.....

 

Can't believe the guy also picked on Ira! Shows no respect for a Who's Who in numismatics!

 

100 posts in 27 months? Running a little better then 1 per week! Careful---you might get carpal tunnel!

 

David

[IrishMike]

I thought Mark's reply in that ebay thread was a classic (pop1eye).

[TomB]

I thought Mark's reply in that ebay thread was a classic (pop1eye).

So that's how one gets Mark to post on a non-PCGS board these days!

[K6AZ]

I like Mark's reply. Short, sweet, and to the point. Here, several people were calling mint state coins as anything from XF-AU. What was really humorous was the first coin, which was a old holder NGC MS64. A little bit of a soft strike, but anyone trying to call that coin circulated doesn't know how to grade coins.

 

I reported that thread, along with one where he trashed the defense auctions. It looks like eBay pulled them, so he started a new thread with more of the same rhetoric, claiming that he "self reported" the threads. This guy is seriously delusional.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Do they overgrade gold coins at NGC?

 

Do they overgrade gold coins at NGC?

[Beijim]

Fascinating. PCGS board member "RYK" writes in his post of Sunday, June 13, at 7:26 PM:

 

While, the analysis would be more complete if the coins were retried at PCGS first and then sent to NGC, but my conclusion must be that NGC is, on average, more generous than PCGS for rare date gold.

 

Putting aside the vague resemblance to an English sentence, the substance is little more than one side of the glass is half empty or full argument. Put another way, the phraseology colors the reader's perception of the raw statistics. "RYK" could just have easily written something like, "My conclusion must be that PCGS is, on average, more miserly than NGC for rare date gold."

 

The point is that the statement as actually posted implies that NGC grades loosely, and therefore in error, rather than that PCGS grades tightly, and therefore just as likely in error.

 

I have no axe to grind other than the unbiased use of statistics (and the preservation of the English language ).

 

Regards,

Beijim

[Wihlborg]

The point is that the statement as actually posted implies that NGC grades loosely, and therefore in error, rather than that PCGS grades tightly, and therefore just as likely in error.

 

Exactly, and this is why I have to laugh whenever I hear someone say that NGC grades loosely compared to PCGS.

 

IMO, there are undergraded, overgraded, and correctly graded coins in both companies holders and the sooner the cool aid drinkers in both camps realize this the better off they, and their collections will be.

 

It is after all supposed to be about the coin, not the plastic that surrounds it.

 

John

[gmarguli]

Loose/tight makes no difference. Consistent is the only thing that matters. If ACG graded consistent, yet 3 points above market standards, we'd all buy their coins sight unseen since we'd know what the true grade is.

 

PCGS can be tighter and they can be looser. The problem with buying a PCGS coin sight unseen for a premium is that you don't know if you have a so-called undergraded coin or one that is correctly graded or one that is overgraded. It's easy to put a solid MS65 in an MS64 slab and point to the premium prices that your coins bring. It's a lot harder to consistently put that MS65 in an MS65 slab. That's where PCGS fails. That's where people get screwed.

[DirtyGoldMan]

Gee, Beijim, slam me (twice) for the extra "but" in my convoluted sentence. I was typing quickly and made an error--your unwillingness to let it pass does little to stimulate discourse on my part on this or any other topic. I thought this was supposed to be the friendlier forum. This will be my last post here (until the PCGS server goes down ).

 

As for my bias, I have submitted a total of 7 coins to NGC and 8 coins to PCGS, and of the coins rare date gold coins I own, about half are in NGC holders and about half are in PCGS holders. I will buy a nice coin encapsulated by NGC as readily as I will purchase one in a PCGS holder. I own no stock in CU. What is my bias? The fact that I post more frequently on the other forum? (I will disclose that I like the appearance of the PCGS holder better than NGC's, but two of my favorite three coins are in NGC holders.)

 

Greg,

 

The reason it does, in fact, matter is that occasionally I like to buy coins. The price of the coin is usually in some way pinned to the grade of the coin and the grade of the coin is at the very least correlated to the grade on the holder. Certainly, the price asked for a coin is linked to the grade on the holder. So if (BIG if) NGC is overgrading the coins (consistently or inconsistently), NGC is allowing sellers to reasonably ask for more money for their coins. I think that some dealers know this and capitalize on it. If you doubt this, I would like to have a sip of the Kool Aid, too.

 

I find it hard to argue the point that NGC more liberally graded the Duke's Creek coins, compared to PCGS.

 

See you guys the next time the lights go off across the street.

[jom]

This will be my last post here

 

Sorry to hear that.

 

NGC is allowing sellers to reasonably ask for more money for their coins. I think that some dealers know this and capitalize on it. If you doubt this, I would like to have a sip of the Kool Aid, too.

 

This just isn't reality. If NGC is overgrading coins then the market will KNOW this and bid LOWER for NGC coins.

 

BTW, when coins are UNDERGRADED then the seller gets screwed rigtht? So regardless of whether the coin is over or under graded someone is getting losing out (buyer or seller). Therefore, it DOES matter whether a TPG is consistant...in fact it is the MOST important thing.

 

Also, the only way a dealer can "capitalize" on this is when the buyer doesn't know what he is doing. I'm sorry but if you don't know how to grade you shouldn't be buying coins unless you are willing to accept the consequences. It isn't the TPG's fault YOU bought the overgraded coin. It's your fault.

 

jom

[Wihlborg]

The problem with buying a PCGS coin sight unseen for a premium is that you don't know if you have a so-called undergraded coin or one that is correctly graded or one that is overgraded. It's easy to put a solid MS65 in an MS64 slab and point to the premium prices that your coins bring. It's a lot harder to consistently put that MS65 in an MS65 slab.

 

Greg,

 

This has always been the problem I have with the elitist 'I only buy PCGS coins because they are better' attitude some have. IMO, there is no surer way to go wrong in this hobby, than to blindly buy any coin just because it is in a particular company’s holder, while overlooking all the other great coins that may reside in another brand of plastic.

 

It is a fact that there are many great coins in PCGS holders, but it is also a fact that there are many great coins in NGC holders, as well as some other brands, and anyone who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves.

 

John

[jom]

but it is also a fact that there are many great coins in NGC holders, as well as some other brands, and anyone who thinks otherwise is only fooling themselves.

 

In general that is true but I have noticed in certain areas that NGC coins are over saturated. Now this doesn't really have anything to do with grading but it seems there have been an unusually number of coins graded at NGC which are not what I call "PQ".

 

Case in point: I collect $5 Indian half eagles. Without a doubt there are FAR more NGC graded coins of the better dates than there are from PCGS. In fact, when I see a PQ coin it is almost ALWAYS a PCGS graded coin. Never fails.

 

Why is this and will this reflect badly on NGC? First of all I believe there was a hoard of these that came over from Europe and probably got massive submissions to NGC. Then the PQ coins were picked out and slabbed at PCGS because you can get more money in their slab.

 

Does it reflect badly on NGC? Could be. Because your first reaction at seeing all these "junk unc" coins is "how can they grade [!@#%^&^] like this?". Well, is it NGC's fault they got a huge submisson of [!@#%^&^]? No. BUT having these coins in their holders definately effects the market price for any coin of that type in their holder so it is no surprise the PQ's get cracked and sent to PCGS. It is sort of a snow-ball effect...the more it happens the worse it gets. Also, keep in mind that this does NOT reflect at all on NGC's ablility to grade. It only says the types of coins that are going there. Hell, who knows..maybe they had some sort of grading "red-light" special and got a bunch of submissions.

 

This effect could be seen to a smaller degree on other series. So just because the market is not the same for similar grades at NGC or PCGS does NOT necessarily mean NGC is more lienent in their grading.

 

jom

[TomB]

This will be my last post here (until the PCGS server goes down ).

 

I hope you mean that it is your last post in this thread and not that you mean this is the last post on these boards. Obviously, there is a big difference.

 

On a slight tangent, and not meant to be picking on you at all, I have often wodered why some folks feel compelled to announce that they are not going to post anymore. I have seen this quite often at PCGS, when I posted there, and almost without fail those folks who announced that they were leaving actually didn't leave. The threads always turned into some type of group hug with people writing how this member meant sooooo much to the boards. I never understood it, since I believed that those members typically didn't mean much to the boards. The only person whom I can recall to state that they were leaving for good and then left was lovedbygod7 (lbg7) and I think that those of us who were on the boards at that time (late 2001, perhaps) would agree that lbg7 was not a good forum member. Is it a type of temper tantrum that people need to get out of their systems?

[DirtyGoldMan]

Okay, guys, I wanted to come back and apologize for my impetous exit. Acting like a five year old never helps in an adult discussion. I do not mind when people disagree with my viewpoint, but I am perhaps too thin-skinned to be belittled for errors of syntax and patronized for buying overgraded coins (despite that I am not sure that I have). I have never found this forum to be particularly friendly and my latest experience here has been no different.

 

I could carry on my discussion points but have frankly lost interest. It is somewhat ironic that across the street there are just as many critical posts (probably more) of PCGS grading as there are of NGC. Criticism of NGC over here is very poorly tolerated.

 

Please feel free to carry on the discussion if you wish...I will now (more) quietly slip away...Good Luck with all of your collecting endeavors.

[TomB]

SageRed, I'm glad to see you are posting here again.

 

Could it possibly be that Beijim didn't know that you use the user name RYK over at PCGS? If so, then Beijim wasn't trying to attack you, rather, Beijim was merely pointing out something that was written at PCGS. I write this because I didn't know that you were RYK over at PCGS, however, from your post here it seems that you are. It is likely that you told us in the past about the dual names, but I forget lots of things like that.

[EVillageProwler]

Not directing this to anyone in particular, but I think it doesn't matter who the target is. I think, in general, we should not belittle anyone.

 

Well, at least that is what I teach my girls (the dogs!)...

 

(For those who don't know me, I'm not trying to put myself above anyone else. Lord knows I've done many things that I later on realized I should not have.)

 

EVP

[jom]

OK, that does it! I've had it! I'm done posting here....until later tonight of course.

 

jom

[mommam17]

When I came back to the hobby in 1998 I had a lot to learn. I had decided to buy only PCGS coins. Well, my dealer friend came by and I told him. He took out a beautiful NGC 65 Columbian half and laid it on the table and I blurted out SOLD. We talked and I realized PCGS only was not the way to go. Now my collection is about 50-50, PCGS and NGC.

[Please Delete-migration]

A thread is posted over there:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=296456

 

And then that thread is linked in a thread over here:

http://boards.collectors-society.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=509675

 

And then the thread over here is linked in a new thread over there:

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=296940

 

It's kind of like watching a tennis match.

[Beijim]

TomB is, of course, correct regarding my ignorance that "SageRed" on the NGC boards is also "RYK" on the PCGS boards. Tom's perspicacity is welcome and unsurprising, given what I know of Tom from reading his many contributions here.

 

As for "belittling" anyone, my comments concern the PCGS post, not its author. My observations are statements of fact, the overall point of which is that the quote's implied conclusion isn't the only way to interpret the statistics.

 

That the quote isn't an English sentence simply made its conclusion less compelling. To me. Your mileage may vary.

 

Beijim

[Here]

This is the part I don't get.

 

I saw a post over on the PCGS board where someone said they were cracking open their newly graded coins and sending them back to PCGS "Again" to see if they could get it right this time. Do people keep sending the same coin back to PCGS/NGC over and over until they get their "happy" grade?

 

I talked to a dealer last week and he said he cracks coins out all the time and sends bunches in to NGC hoping for higher grades and does pretty good. None came back lower and 10+ came back one grade higher. (I actually think he said 20) How many coins do you have to send in at one time to get 10+ back a grade higher?

 

I talked to someone at NWR a couple weeks ago and was told they had a client one time who bought NGC and PCGS in the old holders only because they had a better chance of being bumped up a grade when re-submitted to NGC or PCGS. I can understand this if the grading has changed somewhat over time. If this is so and widely known and accepted, should I seriously think about having all my coins in old holders sent back in?

[mommam17]

Yes, there are people that keep sending coins in until they get their grade.It`s best to know your coins because not all old slabs will upgrade and many are over graded. It is a game with many players! Good luck if you enter the game.