Hot off the press! New Rules on E-bay

[coinsbygary]

What does the collecting community out there think of these changes? I think they're a step in the right direction to truth in purchasing on E-Bay.

 

As coin collecting continues to grow and thrive on eBay, customers have told us time and again that knowing they can buy and sell with confidence is important. We'll be updating eBay's Stamps, currency, and coins policy to help foster that confidence—this update may impact your coin listings.

 

Starting May 30, all new listings and relistings in coin categories will need to meet the following requirements:

 

First, listings for coins will be allowed to include a numeric grade in their listing title or item description only if the coin grading company meets certain objective standards.* Coins that haven't been graded by these companies will be considered raw or ungraded. Currently, eBay has determined that only the Numismatic Guaranty Corporation (NGC) and the Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS) meet these standards.

Second, for US Coins only, grading by companies meeting these standards will now be required for all coins listed with a Buy It Now, reserve, or start price of $2,500 and above.

 

Good 'Til Cancelled listings will have until June 30th to comply with the revised policy. Listings that don't comply by these dates will be ineligible for relist or renewal and will be removed.

 

We've heard from both buyers and sellers that they'd like to see more coins on eBay graded by companies who meet high standards. These new requirements are an important step toward meeting these marketplace demands. Take action now to ensure your listings comply with these new changes.

 

As always, thank you for selling on eBay,

 

eBay Selling Team

 

*These standards will be posted on eBay's website shortly.

 

[comicdonna]

[Frank Provasek]

There are many good coins in ANACS and ICG slabs which will now be unmarketable and unsearchable on eBay with these new rules. I spent several thousand dollars with ANACS recently on varieties and ancients which are two categories that people will (righly so) never buy unless attributed and certified by a reputable grading service. Now eBay will consider these raw. Will be on the phone with my attorney in the morning.

[brg5658]

There are many good coins in ANACS and ICG slabs which will now be unmarketable and unsearchable on eBay with these new rules. I spent several thousand dollars with ANACS recently on varieties and ancients which are two categories that people will (righly so) never buy unless attributed and certified by a reputable grading service. Now eBay will consider these raw. Will be on the phone with my attorney in the morning.

 

If the coin is listed for less than $2500 BIN it can still be listed and can still be searched if ANACS or ICG is listed in the auction title. You just can't list the numeric grade directly in the title. Also, in the drop down for listed coins, only NGC and PCGS will be the options. To my understanding, if you have a coin in an ANACS or ICG holder that is auctioned for more than $2500 then that is still fine, the rule just limits BINs, reserves, and start prices. I'm not saying I agree with the new change completely, but I'm advising you to read the fine print before you get all bent out of shape.

 

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly do you think your lawyer is going to do? In a battle of your lawyer vs. eBay lawyers, I'm pretty sure I know where I'd put my money.

[coinman_23885]

There are many good coins in ANACS and ICG slabs which will now be unmarketable and unsearchable on eBay with these new rules. I spent several thousand dollars with ANACS recently on varieties and ancients which are two categories that people will (righly so) never buy unless attributed and certified by a reputable grading service. Now eBay will consider these raw. Will be on the phone with my attorney in the morning.

 

Great Collections still sells ANACS coins. Also, I agree with Brandon that calling your attorney is pointless. I don't see anything actionable.

[JIM F.]

I don't care for censorship in any form, but am neutral on this. If the intent is to protect the novice buyer then it seems that the PCGS and NGC coins that are put up for sale should have PCGS/NGC price guide prices included as part of the listing. Just a thought.

 

 

[CoinPulsive PCM]

There are many good coins in ANACS and ICG slabs which will now be unmarketable and unsearchable on eBay with these new rules. I spent several thousand dollars with ANACS recently on varieties and ancients which are two categories that people will (righly so) never buy unless attributed and certified by a reputable grading service. Now eBay will consider these raw. Will be on the phone with my attorney in the morning.

 

If the coin is listed for less than $2500 BIN it can still be listed and can still be searched if ANACS or ICG is listed in the auction title. You just can't list the numeric grade directly in the title. Also, in the drop down for listed coins, only NGC and PCGS will be the options. To my understanding, if you have a coin in an ANACS or ICG holder that is auctioned for more than $2500 then that is still fine, the rule just limits BINs, reserves, and start prices. I'm not saying I agree with the new change completely, but I'm advising you to read the fine print before you get all bent out of shape.

 

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly do you think your lawyer is going to do? In a battle of your lawyer vs. eBay lawyers, I'm pretty sure I know where I'd put my money.

 

Ebay's new rule is rediculous. NGC and PCGS may be the most advertised and most used TPG's but ANACS and ICG are just as good as they are. I have looked through every Ebay policy and there are many policies for what can be listed that have holes and flaws. But Ebay is a corporation and corporations will say and do what they want regardless of what people think. And when Ebay does get caught by the Federal gov't they just get fined a few million. It has happened before, nothing changed, ebay still owns the online auction market. If you want to change or fix anything, you will need a class action suit filed against them.

 

I just got done with a lawsuit against Paypal, and I won. I took them to court because when I had a person buy my car they transfered the money through Paypal. The $11,000 transaction completed fine, but then Paypal decided to flag my account, remove the money, and give no sufficent reason besides that their security model thought it was money laundering and the systems decision will take time to reverse. It was unacceptable and Illegal. Long story short, they lost, I got the money back plus $5,000 to cover lost income from being out of work and other fees/expenses. They were also fined and are now answering behind closed doors in federal court while being investigated for any other misconduct.

 

You should not take Ebay to court over their BS rules but talk to the CEO's of ANACS and ICG and hope that they will go after Ebay for Fair Trade violations.

 

-Dave

 

 

[skippy]

Not listing the numeric grade except for PCGS/NGC coins has been the rule for a long time (although I think they used to accept ICG too). It wasn't much of a problem IMO - sellers could still list a textual grade and show the slab holder in the photos.

 

The rule regarding required slabbing for coins listed over $2500 or BIN/reserve is new. I don't much like it, but I can see both sides. The major concern I have is that the list of acceptable slabber is too narrow - ANACS and ICG could be added without increasing the risk of fraudulent auctions. After all, there are plenty of counterfeit PCGS holders up there now. I'm all for listing garage shop slabbers as raw coins.

 

[coinman_23885]

 

You should not take Ebay to court over their BS rules but talk to the CEO's of ANACS and ICG and hope that they will go after Ebay for Fair Trade violations.

 

-Dave

 

 

What fair trade violations would you be speaking of? I don't see how anyone could recover against eBay for its new policy. EBay provides eBay buyer protection and if they have liability, isn't it rational to limit their liability? While it is true that there are good coins in ANACS and ICG coins, they have had issues lately, and I understand eBay's categorical rule against them.

 

P.S. If eBay cannot prohibit ANACS and ICG coins from being listed in this manner, how can it eliminate PCI, SEGS, etc? There was obviously a judgment call there too, and because the line was pushed a little too far for you personally, you think they should be sued by ANACS and ICG?

[coinsbygary]

Good points all. Where I think this policy is most welcome is in protecting new and novice buyers. However, I do like the idea of having to give both the NGC and PCGS price guides in the listing. Some sellers already do that voluntarily. Otherwise, ICG and ANACS are respected and should be included with NGC and PCGS. I would love to know the criteria that E-Bay applied when they determined that NGC and PCGS were they only TPGers that met their standards. Were those standards applied equally, or were they tailor made so that only NGC or PCGS could meet them?

Gary

[messydesk]

First of all, nothing stupid that eBay does to screw honest sellers surprises me or should surprise anyone. On a thread ATS, the criteria for being permitted to be listed in a favorable fashion are reported to include:

 

Been in business for a certain # of years

Graded 50,000 + coins dated 1956 and earlier

Have a search function on their website to verify a slabs cert # as to what the coin is

Have an on line price guide for prices for graded coins.

 

While these criteria seem "fair enough" on the surface, they could have been chosen to exclude ANACS and ICG. If those are the complete criteria, they don't stand in the way of established disreputable services from meeting them, so as soon as an undesirable grading service meets the criteria, eBay will have to either accept them or change their rules in response to those criteria being met.

[Frank Provasek]

First of all, nothing stupid that eBay does to screw honest sellers surprises me or should surprise anyone. On a thread ATS, the criteria for being permitted to be listed in a favorable fashion are reported to include:

 

Been in business for a certain # of years

Graded 50,000 + coins dated 1956 and earlier

Have a search function on their website to verify a slabs cert # as to what the coin is

Have an on line price guide for prices for graded coins.

 

While these criteria seem "fair enough" on the surface, they could have been chosen to exclude ANACS and ICG. If those are the complete criteria, they don't stand in the way of established disreputable services from meeting them, so as soon as an undesirable grading service meets the criteria, eBay will have to either accept them or change their rules in response to those criteria being met.

 

Almost all of the fake PCGS and NGC slabs check out as "good" on the online

verification...because eBay's requirements to list the slab serial number made eBay itself a major source for counterfeiters to obtain valid serial numbers.

 

With eBay selling about $4 billion a year in the coins category, there must be at least several hundred million dollars of ANACS and ICG slabs sold through eBay, which are now unmarketable on that venue.

 

Even with PCI and SEGS, the company's coins were listed in the bluesheet and have a definite market value. As long as they are properly described for what they are, and no inappropriate valuation claims are made, a venue like eBay has no business telling sellers which particular brand names of a legal product may or may not be sold. They can ban ALL raw coins, or ALL items of a particular type, such as guns, but banning the products of certain companies is illegal restraint of trade,

[Conder101]

Where I think this policy is most welcome is in protecting new and novice buyers.

Yep, got to protect those new and novice buyers who are buying $2500+ coins that they know nothing about.

 

What was that old saying about a fool and his money? I guess eBay thinks they can do something about that.

[mailman1959]

EBAY is a public service. You do not have the "right" to sell anything YOU want on THEIR site. They have a clause in their terms of use regarding "community trust", once THEY feel uncomfortable with an item because of user feedback, THEY have the right to refuse selling it

[Keigwin]

There are many good coins in ANACS and ICG slabs which will now be unmarketable and unsearchable on eBay with these new rules. I spent several thousand dollars with ANACS recently on varieties and ancients which are two categories that people will (righly so) never buy unless attributed and certified by a reputable grading service. Now eBay will consider these raw. Will be on the phone with my attorney in the morning.

 

If the coin is listed for less than $2500 BIN it can still be listed and can still be searched if ANACS or ICG is listed in the auction title. You just can't list the numeric grade directly in the title. Also, in the drop down for listed coins, only NGC and PCGS will be the options. To my understanding, if you have a coin in an ANACS or ICG holder that is auctioned for more than $2500 then that is still fine, the rule just limits BINs, reserves, and start prices. I'm not saying I agree with the new change completely, but I'm advising you to read the fine print before you get all bent out of shape.

If the coin is in a slab other than PCGS and NGC then it will be considered raw.

 

Currently, the rules for raw coins prohibit referencing any TPG in the title and auction listing. Unless the rules are changed, sellers of ANACS coins will not be allowed to mention ANACS or the numerical grade in the title or the listing. Of course pictures will tell the story. But searches will not be possible.

Lance.

[comicdonna]

Where I think this policy is most welcome is in protecting new and novice buyers.

Yep, got to protect those new and novice buyers who are buying $2500+ coins that they know nothing about.

 

What was that old saying about a fool and his money? I guess eBay thinks they can do something about that.

This fool is grateful.

[messydesk]

ANACS has issued an official statement with respect to this and is confident they can comply with the slab number lookup by May 30. I will not lay odds on whether this will cause the nescient nincompoops of eBay to go looking for another reason to exclude them.

 

Linky

[Frank Provasek]

Listen to the 28 year old ebay guy TWICE mention to the PNG membership that it's all about

"selling your coins at higher price points"

 

 

 

 

[e1cnr]

They got their info from John Albanese - does that mean in a couple years eBay will require CAC stickers to mention NGC or PCGS?

 

People will still sell ICG and ANACS, just like they presently sell PCI and ACG.

 

 

[comicdonna]

ANACS has issued an official statement with respect to this and is confident they can comply with the slab number lookup by May 30. I will not lay odds on whether this will cause the nescient nincompoops of eBay to go looking for another reason to exclude them.

 

Linky

News about ebay and coins made it all the way to comics general. Wondering how coin collectors felt, and if it will happen with comics.

[Frank Provasek]

EBAY is a public service. You do not have the "right" to sell anything YOU want on THEIR site. They have a clause in their terms of use regarding "community trust", once THEY feel uncomfortable with an item because of user feedback, THEY have the right to refuse selling it

 

Ebay is not a "public service." They are a "for profit" company. As such, and particularly as a defacto monopoly, policies which benefit certain players and

eliminate others violate Federal antitrust laws.

[Frank Provasek]

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly do you think your lawyer is going to do? In a battle of your lawyer vs. eBay lawyers, I'm pretty sure I know where I'd put my money.

 

My lawyer has already sent eBay a notice that since I have bought ANACS coins off eBay and recently spent over $2000 with ANACS in grading fees with the express purpose of selling such graded coins on eBay based on their many statements that eBay was an approved grading service, being forced to either sell these coins as "raw" or pay some $3,500 additional to get them slabbed by NGC or PCGS plus the loss of market value and liquidity of my ANACS and ICG stock would result in a well over $10,000 loss for me.

[Oldtrader3]

This Ebay control set is overdue but not nearly going to fix the problem. The issue is not $2500 raw coins for probably 98% of Ebay buyers. The only solution to the problem is for Ebay to get more deeply involved in being a coin knowledgeable dealer venue partner. They need to blow the PNG whistle on suspicious listings and that requires outside expertise which Ebay does not possess. Anything less (like this for instance) is mostly window dressing.

 

The coin dollar volume of Ebay is going to draw attention from market regulators eventually because there are too many abuses. Too bad it has to come to this but is is essentially a product of avarice and greed for some few individuals (I won't even call them dealers) to exploit as many people as possible with any loophole. It is human nature to do so.

 

I am not a lawyer and can not comment on that area but the amount of sunk capital loses is becoming unacceptable to many and is going to drive regulation because it causes large dissatisfaction numbers with the loose process of control and many instances of abuse because of the transaction activity level. More money lost, more dissatisfaction with the process. This country has securities, RICO and fraud laws already in many markets.

 

The bid and ask market in this industry is not smoothed or even statistically sound. Without a regulated, going-concern regulated market, this system will never get any better than its last transaction. Computer modelling and software is to the point that this could be done and done pretty well to assure a more regulated market place without too much oversight and red tape. Some one needs to take the challenge and help with this problem and soon.

[Kamillion]

eBay flew about 10% after-hours today on great earnings.

 

 

incase anyone wanted to know.

[Yankeejose]

This line is interesting

 

Second, for US Coins only, grading by companies meeting these standards will now be required for all coins listed with a Buy It Now, reserve, or start price of $2,500 and above.

 

So does this mean that no one can list a coin for $2500+ if is not graded by NGC or PCGS? I was looking at an Ebay seller that was selling early silver dollars with buy-it-now now prices in the $4000- 6000 dollar range. He had sold some and the buyer feedback was good. The prices seemed reasonable (not that I was a buyer). So now he can't sell his coins on Ebay for the price he wants unless he has them graded by the big 2?

 

 

[Raisethis2]

The real problem here as I see it is that a significant threat has been created to both the reputation and practices of ANACS and IGC. I can just see a year from now where PCGS and NGC will be posting ads in trade publications saying " Buy ONLY PCGS and NGC encapsulated coins" "The ONLY TPG accepted by E-Bay" !!! Not to mention the erosion of the value of coins we might own today in Competitor TPG slabs.

 

E-Bay should require a 14 day return of coins over X number of $$$$ and let the buyer decide if he's made a good purchase once the coin's in hand. Finally, as I said in the other thread on this subject, what happens when PCGS buys out NGC or vice versa? What happens if one goes belly up? Then the other calls all the shots without competition?

[coinman_23885]

This line is interesting

 

Second, for US Coins only, grading by companies meeting these standards will now be required for all coins listed with a Buy It Now, reserve, or start price of $2,500 and above.

 

So does this mean that no one can list a coin for $2500+ if is not graded by NGC or PCGS? I was looking at an Ebay seller that was selling early silver dollars with buy-it-now now prices in the $4000- 6000 dollar range. He had sold some and the buyer feedback was good. The prices seemed reasonable (not that I was a buyer). So now he can't sell his coins on Ebay for the price he wants unless he has them graded by the big 2?

 

 

First of all good feedback doesn't necessarily mean that the coins were legitimate - look at certain online sellers that are known for selling problem/misrepresented coins; they have excellent feedback as well.

 

Second, eBay's policy does not preclude him from selling the said material. Rather, he cannot sell them via BIN at prices above $2499. He could do no reserve auctions and start the bidding at $2,499, for instance.

[coinman_23885]

Just out of curiosity, but what exactly do you think your lawyer is going to do? In a battle of your lawyer vs. eBay lawyers, I'm pretty sure I know where I'd put my money.

 

My lawyer has already sent eBay a notice that since I have bought ANACS coins off eBay and recently spent over $2000 with ANACS in grading fees with the express purpose of selling such graded coins on eBay based on their many statements that eBay was an approved grading service, being forced to either sell these coins as "raw" or pay some $3,500 additional to get them slabbed by NGC or PCGS plus the loss of market value and liquidity of my ANACS and ICG stock would result in a well over $10,000 loss for me.

 

First of all, I wouldn't say that eBay had a monopoly per se because there are a host of other organizations that you can sell your coins with including Heritage, Stacks-Bowers, Sotheby's, Great Collections, and Teletrade to name a few. EBay is not stopping you from selling your coins, and I cannot imagine any judge ruling that you are entitled to sell coins on eBay when eBay doesn't want you to sell said coins on their site.

 

Second of all, eBay never guaranteed any of the services or provided any warranties, express or implied, with regards to the quality of the said services or their ultimate market liquidity. You took a calculated risk, and the fact that you might lose out does not mean that you should be able to recover from eBay. Additionally, I am not sure what reaction you are expecting from eBay, but I would be unmoved and unimpressed if I were eBay. If anything, you have likely wasted attorney's fees, which you will never get back, to send a letter that will likely be written off.

 

Edited to add: Also, do you really think that eBay is going to be moved when you claim $10,000 is damages, but have conceded, in writing, that the material only cost you $2,000? As such your "damages" would only be $2,000. EBay knows this is not enough money for your to be able to hire an attorney to litigate with them and no attorney (in their right mind) would take the case on a contingency fee basis unless there was hope of additional funds. Also the fact that you were able to spend $200-$500 or so to have an attorney draft a letter does not mean that you will have funds to pursue litigation. And for the record, I think you would need to have expert witnesses to establish the value of the materials. In short, there are an infinite number of ways that eBay lawyers could make your life miserable if you sued them. I would guess that your attorney's fees would grossly exceeded any judgment or settlement, and most U.S. courts follow the American Rule meaning that you will not likely get your attorney's fees back (the American Rule providing that each party is generally responsible for his/her own attorney's fees).

[Yankeejose]

Good point- he can set a reserve over $2500 and start it at any price.

 

[Mozin]

Ebay can and should do anything they want, as long as it is legal. They own the business.

 

I have no problem calling PCGS/NGC coins the only accepted grading services, and ANACS/ICG considered as raw coins. This is how I look at them myself. My searches on ebay specifically avoid ANACS/ICG coins anyway. It is my personal opinion that the current ANACS/ICG grading companies are simply not reliable enough, or consistent enough for me to spend money on their holdered coins.

 

You all are entitled to your own personal opinions on this issue.