1963 Franklin - die chip on obv. & reed-like lines on rev??
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I just bought this Franklin & found 2 interesting marks on it. On the obverse, there's a big chunk of metal between the 9 & 6. At first, I thought it was big ding that displaced some of the coin - especially with some of the other hits around it, but after looking at different angles, I don't think so.

Also, on the reverse, it looks like about 19 reed marks that run along side the upper left side of the bell, but they're not straight; they follow the contour of the bell.

There are scratches in the yoke, but the lines above the bell are actually raised.

 

Does anyone have any insights?

 

Thanks for your thoughts / comments!

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The obverse displays a die chip. These are relatively common, and occur when a weak spot in the die breaks off.

 

The reverse is interesting. I've seen these marks before, but I really don't know what caused them. My first thought was some sort of die polish, but they don't look right. I honestly have no idea what caused them.

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The marks along the bell are interesting. They appear to be raised, and it reminds me of what you might have happen when a high-speed grinder (accidentally) contacts the surface and skips across it.

 

Chris

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Physics & Chris,

Thanks for your thoughts. I've seen a couple other Franklins with die chips in the date, but they ran along side one number, not connecting 2 digits.

I've just recently started to examine my coins' fine details; it's like a whole different world!! It's the same feeling I had after I'd been scuba diving for awhile and decided to look at it differently. After swimming by the coral & fish around them, it seems like everything is almost the same. But, after slowing way down & really examining the fine details of the reef - it’s a whole new world and a new degree of excitement!!

I've found some VAM's on my Morgans, but no Top 100 (yet).

 

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I just noticed that in the 1st 3 obverse pic's, those milky spots make it look like Ben had a meal that didn't agree with him and forcefully expelled it.

Maybe he was 'fed up' with the die chip below his chin.

OK - I'll stop the terrible attempts at humor...

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I've found some VAM's on my Morgans, but no Top 100 (yet).

 

Try not to put too much emphasis on the Top 100 & Hot 50 attributions. There are a lot of Morgan & Peace Dollars in these groups which are really nothing special and I don't know why they keep them on those lists when there are others much more interesting.

 

For example, the 1891-CC VAM-3 "Spitting Eagle" has a catchy name, but it is very common. I'd much rather see some like these on the list.......

 

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116585.jpg.fd97bffd4264824ca928beadd179e763.jpg

Edited by cpm9ball

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I'd normally agree with Zwool on this one, but I think they are really from Ben's hair comb....He was trying to hide his bald spot and was interrupted by one of his French "assistants." Ben quickly stuck the comb in his back pocket and that is what made the scratches on the reverse.

 

Or.....maybe Gilroy Roberts was trying to show that the bell was swinging - like in a cartoon....?

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I'd normally agree with Zwool on this one, but I think they are really from Ben's hair comb....He was trying to hide his bald spot and was interrupted by one of his French "assistants." Ben quickly stuck the comb in his back pocket and that is what made the scratches on the reverse.

 

Or.....maybe Gilroy Roberts was trying to show that the bell was swinging - like in a cartoon....?

 

Or, it could have been that Ben had an itch on his backside and, being in an unfamiliar location, his "escort's" comb was the only thing handy.

 

Chris

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Try not to put too much emphasis on the Top 100 & Hot 50 attributions. There are a lot of Morgan & Peace Dollars in these groups which are really nothing special and I don't know why they keep them on those lists when there are others much more interesting.

 

For example, the 1891-CC VAM-3 "Spitting Eagle" has a catchy name, but it is very common. I'd much rather see some like these on the list.......

 

Surely it would not have anything to do with whether or not the posted features (excellent pictures, by the way) are die related or hub related?

 

Probably not though, since these Top 100 & Hot 50 lists are vam related, and vams are neither die or hub related (as far as I can tell). ;)

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I just noticed that in the 1st 3 obverse pic's, those milky spots make it look like Ben had a meal that didn't agree with him and forcefully expelled it.

Maybe he was 'fed up' with the die chip below his chin.

OK - I'll stop the terrible attempts at humor...

 

I got a got chuck outta that one. And so did Ben..lol

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RWB & Chris,

Thanks for your valuable input!

The cartoon ringing would have made more sense if the marks were alongside the bell and spaced further apart - as to indicate a heavier, reverberating ring. The smaller marks are what I'd anticipate from the shrillness of a much smaller, round alarm bell.

As for the comb theory, I believe that combs were were made of tortise shell at the time, which wouldn't have been hard enough to cause THESE scratches.

 

Any other theories?

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"Any other theories?"

 

Hummmm....ancient aliens -- Fox News -- your local cable provider... the NBA...?

 

Let's see what Zwool has to say - usually very perceptive ideas.

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I don't know about "perceptive"....... 'radical' ... (possibly).

 

'You' are the Master, RWB....... I am the mere grasshopper, so if you insist that this anomaly has something to do with the relationship between a brass dome and a chrome one, I will have to ponder the possibilities overnight.

 

The only other thing that I might think of off the top of my fat little head right now would be that the reverse was the lower die, and the opposing die might have been fumbled upon insertion, and those evenly spaced marks adjacent the bell just might be the result of reeding impact at a sharp angle from the obverse die.

 

(Thanks for putting me on the spot anyway).

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Okay, while brushing my choppers before toddling off to bed, I thought this over, and would like to retract my first thought of a sloppy die clean up job.....

 

Notice that the uniformly spaced marks (or segments) fall into the device of the bell (except near the top of the bell).... in that particular area, the segments are stranded in the field, not adjacent to the device...... this would be inconsistent with a tool such as a file or wire wheel.......

 

I must therefore lock in my answer as contact with the uniform reeding of the opposing die, (or the uniform spacing of Ben's comb teeth)..... :insane:

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Thought that one over too..... very, very stupid...... reeding comes from the collar, not the dies.... (I know it is a lame excuse, but I was thinking of denticles and milling on Morgans and CBH)..... so.... I guess that narrows things down to the comb idea then, unless the reverse was the upper die, and it dropped at an angle onto the collar.

Edited by zeewool

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As for the comb theory, I believe that combs were were made of tortise shell at the time, which wouldn't have been hard enough to cause THESE scratches.

 

It would have been hard enough to cause gouges on Ben's backside. Did anyone take a look to see if they look the same?

 

Chris

 

PS. I still think it may have been a high,speed tool that skipped across the surface, and the fact that the marks are further away from the top of the bell might lend credence to this theory.

 

Chris

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..........and vams are neither die or hub related (as far as I can tell). ;)

 

Why do you say that VAM's are neither hub- nor die-related?

 

What about hub doubling? A die clash? An RPM? Or, a doubled dash?

 

 

 

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Heh, I jest about the comb...... however, given the slight convexity of the die face, the portion of the die that is in highest relief is that portion of the field that is nearest the center of the central device..... I do believe that if you would take another half dollar (preferably of the same year), and lay it atop of your coin, matching the reeding of the upper coin to the segments on your coin, you may find a surprising correlation there.

 

Why do you say that VAM's are neither hub- nor die-related?

 

What about hub doubling? A die clash? An RPM? Or, a doubled dash?

 

Allow me to clarify through my eyes...... vams are not always identified by individual die pairs..... (there are many vams that are made up of multiple die pairs).

 

Hub doubling does not necessarily identify a die or a hub.......... did the doubling occur during the making of the master die from the master hub, or the making of the working hub from the master die, or during the making of the working die from the working hub? In most, (but not all) cases the latter is true.

 

A die clash is definitely die related, however..... pre-formed polishing plates used to basin the dies to a predetermined radius culminated in an inherent convexity of the dies, die clashes are not definitive smoking guns to die identity....... the same clashes occur in the exact same locations on a good many dies depending on the accuracy of the die flats that were used to both align corresponding dies as well as to prevent them from rotation.

 

RPM = die related.

 

Doubled dash or even single dash (under the 8 and over the 10th denticle) I presume that you speak of? This is a working hub defect, and not an alignment mark on individual dies as some might believe.

 

What I meant was simply that half of the time, vam identification seems to be based on classifications of similarities between die pairs rather than on actual die pairs..... I am not a vammer, so if you could shed some light on these inconsistencies that perplex me, I would appreciate it.

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It looks like I've disproven my reed theory. Since these reed-like marks are way too small for a half dollar, I compared a 1957 D dime (the closest I had to a 1963 in silver). There appears to be about 3.2 marks on the half for every reed line on the dime.

 

Photobucket

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