New bannings at another coin forum.

[WoodenJefferson]

Earl Holliman, Sgt. Suzanne "Pepper" Anderson's side kick in the TV series Police Woman, portrayed Lt. Bill Crowely who started out his career as the clown cook in Forbidden Planet.

 

I myself post ATS, read the threads ATS and over the years seen the ax fall numerous times for the slightest infractions of the so-called generic rules. They can be interpolated for what ever reason the powers that be decide and use. That's all there is to it, nothing more.

 

CoinGuy1 and Bushmaster8 will live on.

[WoodenJefferson]

 

Edit: and to all the rest of you bums kicked off it reminds me of the Highwaymen

 

 

I am a coin collector, I make a livin' dealin' coins.

My coins are not doctored or manipulated in any way.

I was posting comments on a chat board on the net.

I was the greatest Numismatist they'd ever seen.

But the powers that be did not see.

They banned me from the boards across the street,

But I could collect:

And I'll post again and again and again and again.

[Walkerfan]

I said it before and I'll say it again. I like it here and this is where I'll stay and chat and register my competive sets. I sent Mark Feld a PM once, when I needed an opinion, and he glady offered me advice and responded instantly. I always appreciate candor and honesty, as well, from him and anyone else. I always respect that.

[RWB]

Forbidden Planet was the first, and one of the few, movies ever to frighten me as a kid. I had bad dreams for a week - shifting outlines of the Krell monster made visible in a force field or the energy between TV transmitter towers or electric wires....

 

OK...back to banning coin posters.

[cpm9ball]

Forbidden Planet was the first, and one of the few, movies ever to frighten me as a kid. I had bad dreams for a week - shifting outlines of the Krell monster made visible in a force field or the energy between TV transmitter towers or electric wires....

 

OK...back to banning coin posters.

 

Them - 1954

 

Forbidden Planet - 1956

 

The Blob - 1958

[skippy]

I have to think that the reason any TPG maintains a bulletin board is in hopes that discussions on that board will boost the sales and/or popularity of their product. I really doubt if it's totally a goodwill gesture.

 

If that's true, then an organized "timeout" by board members (even if it were only for a short time like a week), would send a message to the TPG that perhaps their policies ran the risk of obtaining the opposite effect of their goals.

 

Whether the reader of this chooses to find this relevant to the currently discussed situation is, of course, a matter of purely personal choice.

 

[Yaha]

Well I was banned ATS a year or so, well I asked the President DW to ban me if he wasn't going to sanction a member for calling me a racist with out just cause.

 

I do believe that Mr Feld will be back on that forum sooner than later. It's a shame though that people tend to chat with other people/members about someone status instead of chatting straight with the horse's mouth..

 

Please be careful on how you offer your vision in the recent ATS situation, it might cause you more harm than good in the long run.

 

I do like Mr. Feld and his seasoned experience in this hobby, at this time PCGS has lost a nice piece of knowledge to their boards.. P.S. Pcgs has lost many good coin hobbists in this hobby that have been banned.

[James_OldeTowne]

I know that Bushie got bammed because he started a thread warning people about the Franklins with PCGS FBL at the recently concluded Heritage auction. He mentioned that many of the slabbed FBL's were NOT FBL and bidders should be aware of this.

Someone got banned for being truthful? Nah, couldn't be.

[coinman_23885]

, it isn't the first time Mark has been bammed over there. And honestly, it probably won't be the last.

 

I wouldn't be so sure of this if I were you. In order to be banned again, he would actually need to join again or seek to be reinstated some how. I sincerely doubt that either of these will occur.

[TomB]

I wouldn't be shocked if it turns out that Mark gets banned again. After all, this is the second time he has been banned by PCGS.

[physics-fan3.14]

, it isn't the first time Mark has been bammed over there. And honestly, it probably won't be the last.

 

I wouldn't be so sure of this if I were you. In order to be banned again, he would actually need to join again or seek to be reinstated some how. I sincerely doubt that either of these will occur.

 

The last time, I believe PCGS actually asked him to come back. Someone else might remember the details better?

[michael]

its all about $$$$$

 

and currently the coin market DEMAND IS MOSTLY ALL HOLDERS AND pcgs for that matter 100% for coins after the 1950's

 

most all will be back over there if they CAN GET BACK ON AND LEAVE THE NGC FORUMS IN THE DUST

 

i totally understand and cant fault em for this

 

but things will change greatly

 

not tomorrow or next month but someday

 

so life is long and so make the best of waht you got in the coin game

 

BY BUYING THE COIN NOT THE HOLDER

 

if you are in this for the long term you will be rewarded by doing this and this is only for pre 1915 coinage

 

as this is what i know and my experiences as such

 

and yes there are some

not many but some exceptions for post 1915 federal coinage but i cant speak as such as i dont know much about post 1915 coins as i dont have much if any experiences with these coins

 

 

 

 

[WoodenJefferson]

, it isn't the first time Mark has been bammed over there. And honestly, it probably won't be the last.

 

I wouldn't be so sure of this if I were you. In order to be banned again, he would actually need to join again or seek to be reinstated some how. I sincerely doubt that either of these will occur.

 

The last time, I believe PCGS actually asked him to come back. Someone else might remember the details better?

 

Mr. Feld seems to be avoiding this entire post

[MJ]

Mark communicated the whole episode to me. Since it was a private convo I'll keep it private. However, since it was a post in an open forum that got him banned I can comment on that.

 

First, it's PCGS's ball and playground and they can do whatever they want with it. That has been made abundantly clear by them. In the end they basically told Mark to go pound sand by their actions.

 

Mark made a comment in a thread that was actually a backhanded compliment in my opinion. Obviously, someone only saw in only as a backhand. Someone was not pleased.Some one issued a red card. If cooler heads were to prevail Mark would be reinstated. However, I wouldn't hold my breath. MJ

[MJ]

I don't know a damn thing about Frankin's but I did enjoy Greg's posts on the subject and thought him to be well, frank................I'm not surprised that he got banned and it was just a matter of time as he push the envelope to his credit.Too bad for the PCGS forum. He is well respected by his peers. Hopefully, he will land over here to participate. MJ

[coinman_23885]

, it isn't the first time Mark has been bammed over there. And honestly, it probably won't be the last.

 

I wouldn't be so sure of this if I were you. In order to be banned again, he would actually need to join again or seek to be reinstated some how. I sincerely doubt that either of these will occur.

 

The last time, I believe PCGS actually asked him to come back. Someone else might remember the details better?

 

To me that adds insult to injury. They actually asked for his feedback and opinions, and when he gives them, they ban him. That's incredible.

[Yaha]

Do you think Bushmaster's comment and Mark Felds subjective view of the FBL's in ats slabs basically would or could cost PCGS a ton of money on resubmissions if a collector feels they need their coins rechecked?

 

I think this could of be a financial decision to stop the opinions by others about what is on the label.. PCGS rules state no bashing of any TPG and their standards. This could of been why in this case..

 

On the other hand if the subjective view by a owner of a coin in any way should be dealt with by returning coin instead of making a mockery on a paid forum by PCGS... JMHO..

 

Disclaimer. My thought is just a opinion and I don't know a darn thing about FBL's and how a tpg differs from one to the other in grading them.. I can see what a FBL should look like, but again I am not trained or hired by a company to give my "Subjective" view of such coin.. God bless everyone. PCGS/NGC are the best in the business and each and everytime I have had issue both tpg's mentioned fulfilled my problem coins 100%

[MJ]

Mark's banishment had nothing to do with FBL's or Franklin's.............MJ

[Hard Times]

Now this might be redundant, but I simply don't understand why anyone would post ATS. I am registered but I have never felt compelled to do so. Yes is is more active, but one has to accept that Big Brother is watching and any little comment that one makes that seems to somehow possibly perhaps put PCGS in light less than completely bright (whew!) you get banned. Plus the font size they use in the posts are so small that I go blind looking at them (is there some way I can get the font size increased BTW?). Why put up with both of these? Well it could be that many flock ATS simply because big names are there - Sperber, Snow, Charmy, Goodman, Pollock, the list goes on. There is somehow also the misconception, that pervades the industry of numismatics, that PCGS coins are worth more than NGC coins. So I guess folks think they need to be ATS to hear the words of these folks and because PCGS coins are better (please.....).

 

I choose to not go blind and I am not a fan of such censorship. Mebbe some of these folks will wise up and enrich us over here instead......

[Conder101]

Of course, if it gets slow and boring over there, they could always start banning people for what they post over here!

Actually I believe that has happened.

[delta]

Of course, if it gets slow and boring over there, they could always start banning people for what they post over here!

Actually I believe that has happened.

 

In the large thread in the aftermath of the recent bannings, a thread deleted by PCGS, several posters said something to the effect that they were afraid to express their opinions for fear of being also banned. Yes, I've read in a few places that PCGS monitors the NGC chat boards, and has made at least a few bannings in their forums on the basis of what someone posted over here.

 

Since we expect that PCGS will be reading what we say, can we request them to make a statement in this forum to explain their position, and their side of the story, a story that is still unfolding?

 

Also, it might be enlightening to receive details from the perspective of the persons newly banned, can we invite them to unburden themselves and clear the air by posting here?

 

In the meantime, I've an added perspective, which I'll post separately in this thread.

[delta]

An added perspective to the recent bannings is about the idea that PCGS can ban anyone anytime from their forums without warning as they state in their rules and regulations. That is a good rule in general so they can eliminate scammers and spammers, and posters who are profane or malicious.

 

It becomes a serious problem when the rules are applied unevenly, unequally, arbitrarily and unethically in order to censor legitimate numismatic discussions.

 

Regardless of what their internally generated rules may state, a publicly traded company such as PCGS cannot always act any way they want. For one thing, they have a legally defined obligation to act in the best interest of their shareholders. Also, they are not allowed to discriminate on the basis of a bunch of criteria such as religion. And to a certain extent, they are not supposed to retaliate against whistleblowers.

 

Furthermore, since we are based in a nation that makes freedom of speech one of the pillars of our society, and we are taught that principle from childhood, it is extremely disturbing to have that principle repeatedly violated without genuine justification.

 

 

[delta]

Mark's banishment had nothing to do with FBL's or Franklin's.............MJ

 

Hopefully you are correct about that. Other posters here and ATS thought that it was the discussion about FBLs that triggered the bannings.

 

Franklin halves were often weakly struck so even when uncirculated most of them didn't show the full bell lines (FBLs) especially along the bottom of the liberty bell on the reverse.

 

If PCGS made errors in grading Franklin halves, and wrongly applied the FBL designation to slabbed coins which were then sold in public auction, it might end up being a little problem for them similar to a consumer recall notice.

 

However, if PCGS tried to cover up their errors with bannings and deleted postings, that could be absolutely scandalous.

 

Will we ever find out the full truth?

 

 

 

[delta]

Still one more point to make. I don't have any personal grievances or axe to grind, no involvement in any direct way, don't know anybody at PCGS and don't know Greg or Mark. I don't even dabble in Franklins. Still there was something about what just happened that I found outrageous. Not to minimize the unfairness, hurtfullness, and lack of decency in some other previous bannings, but in a way it was especially outrageous in regard to Mark Feld.

 

For years Mark had been posting on the PCGS boards seemingly as a volunteer resource person, by freely giving expert advice and opinions, especially on classic coinage, but on a wide variety of topics. He was asked many times if he was doing this as a hired voice for PCGS, because in his postings he was invariably supportive of PCGS and had inside information. He made thousands and thousands of posts, representing an investment of an enormous amount of time. It was a slice of his life. You couldn't have afforded to hire Mark to do that for you, because being a top expert his time is extremely valuable. He gave it generously. He should have received appreciation. Instead he was slapped in the face and banned. To me it appears to have been a betrayal.

 

 

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Mark's banishment had nothing to do with FBL's or Franklin's.............MJ

 

Hopefully you are correct about that. Other posters here and ATS thought that it was the discussion about FBLs that triggered the bannings.

 

Franklin halves were often weakly struck so even when uncirculated most of them didn't show the full bell lines (FBLs) especially along the bottom of the liberty bell on the reverse.

 

If PCGS made errors in grading Franklin halves, and wrongly applied the FBL designation to slabbed coins which were then sold in public auction, it might end up being a little problem for them similar to a consumer recall notice.

 

However, if PCGS tried to cover up their errors with bannings and deleted postings, that could be absolutely scandalous.

 

Will we ever find out the full truth?

 

 

I was apparently banned for what I posted to that thread, though I had not made any comment regarding Franklin Half dollars or PCGS grading.

 

David Hall posted that PCGS had spent "$7,000,000+" over 25 years, as a result of the PCGS grading guarantee. When I saw that figure, I posted something to the effect of:

 

"David, regardless of how excellent you believe PCGS grading to be, isn't "$7,000,000+" a very small amount, compared to the total value of coins graded by PCGS? Even if by "$7,000,000+" you meant $70,000,000, I would have asked the same question."

 

(Edited to add: My above question and comment weren't intended as a compliment or an insult to PCGS, but rather, an observation, for people to make of, whatever they wished.)

 

After posting that, then, without any warning, not being able to post again, I sent the following email to PCGS:

 

"You have been forbidden to post/reply or edit a message in these forums"

 

 

"Hi .... I got the above message this afternoon.

 

To my knowledge, I haven't violated any forum rules or received any warnings about anything, and have been a solid contributor.

 

I traveled to Sacramento today, and the last thread I can remember posting to earlier in the day, was one that has since been deleted. I posted a reply to David (Hall) and it was to the effect that: regardless of how excellent he thought PCGS grading was, his figure of $7,000,000+ in buybacks over 25 years didn't sound like very much, compared to the total value of coins graded by PCGS. I didn't say anything negative about PCGS or to or about anyone else.

 

Please advise.

 

Sincerely,

 

Mark"

 

I subsequently received an email from David Hall. Among other things, I was told that my post was insulting, that I had a lot of gall, that I added fuel to the fire and that I was being negative.

 

Considering that "With more than 20 million coins graded commanding a total value of over $20 billion..." appears on the PCGS website, it seems that "$7,000,000+" is, indeed, a very small amount compared to the total value of coins graded by PCGS.

 

And that, is the whole story, as I know it.

 

I will not post again to this thread. And, based on the way I feel I was treated, I do not plan to ask to be reinstated on the PCGS forum.

 

I greatly appreciate the supportive comments and messages I have received, but please do not bash PCGS on my account, thereby risking getting banned, yourselves.

 

 

[bsshog40]

Well after seeing your side of it mark and your post, I personally would've taken it as it didn't sound like PCGS has had too many problems with buybacks as compared to monies made from entires slabs graded. Sounded like a positive thing to me as if, "it could've been worse". Oh well, I enjoy your posts very much here Mark!!

[physics-fan3.14]

Thanks much, Mark, for telling what happened. Those of us who choose not to post over there have felt a little lost in this thread, not knowing the details.

[RGT]

Well, I did the complex math. $7,000,000 out of $20 billion is only 0.035%. I've seen estimates of the accuracy of the top TPGs given in the 80% - 90% range. If we use the 90% number and then say that only half of those are overgrades as opposed to undergrades you still end up with 5% of the coins in the holders being overgraded.

 

Doing the complex math again it seems that the 0.035% buy back could represent about 0.7% of the 5% of coins that were overgraded. So using a first order analysis it seems that PCGS has bought back less than 1% of their overgraded coins.

 

Of course this analysis is flawed in that we don't know numbers of coins but only dollar amounts. Maybe PCGS has only overgraded very cheap coins and gotten the pricier coins all 100% correct. That way the $7,000,000 could represent the entire 5% of coins overgraded.

 

Let's see a show of hands of all who think PCGS only overgrades low value coins.

 

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

And I suspect NGCs numbers would likely be similar. This is not to bash either service and doesn't necessarily mean that either is not honoring thier grade guarantees. But it does seem to support Mark's assertion that $7,000,000 is not much compared to $20 billion.

[Dudley the 1st]

It seems that PCGS has become very easily offended of late and their over-reaction in this matter is clearly indicative of that .

 

The absence of Mark from the PCGS Forums is a loss for them and collector members alike. Someone there needs to have their dosage of prozac or zoloft re-evaluted . Either it isn't working or they are over medicated .

[gmarguli]

I will not post again to this thread. And, based on the way I feel I was treated, I do not plan to ask to be reinstated on the PCGS forum.