Conder Collectors - Post Your Images 3 3

[Hard Times]

Nice one Yarm.

 

Best, HT

[coinsarefun]

Its been awhile but.....Both are pretty spectacular but one would never know from my embarrassing pictures

 

 

But, non the less.....pretty neat

 

 

 

1796 Hereforeshire DH-4 1P MS64RB

Actually has a hint of nice toning, but doesn't show up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Wales Carmarthen halfpenny DH-7

 

One of the most detailed in the entire series.Raw

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Here's a new one for me. It's dated 1795, despite what the NGC label says.

 

 

 

 

 

And here's some up close detail of York minster...

[coinman1794]

This is an amazing and under-rated series!

[Conder101]

Yes but keep it quiet. They've gotten enough exposure that they have more then quintupled in price since I started collecting them. It was much nicer back when I could buy common Uncs at around $25 apiece.(circa 1997).

Edited September 15, 2015 by Conder101

[Hard Times]

Nice newps folks. I have been looking for a decent DH7 Carmarthen forever..... Here is a recent acquisition.

 

Edited September 22, 2015 by Hard Times

[Yarm]

As long as we're into the details...

 

Midd 853

[Yarm]

During a rainstorm yesterday I summarized the statistics for NGC's Conder token census.

 

There were approximately 8500 tokens in the census for all counties with Middlesex and Warwickshire representing half of the total. Not surprisingly most submissions were for mint state examples with approximately 5% graded 66 and .5% graded 67. Somebody out there has a lone 68.

 

There are clearly Conder tokens missing from the census. Variations in labeling over time may have complicated the summarization by D&H number.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hard Times]

Interesting, I have 6 in MS66, representing slightly more than 5% of my collection. No 67's tho, no 68.........

 

Best, HT

[coinsarefun]

Who here has a Warwickshire/Coventry Lady Godiva?

 

I don't see many graded ones....or at least high grade?

 

 

[Hard Times]

[coinsarefun]

Nice HT, I'm wondering if someone can tell me the population of graded?

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Nice HT, I'm wondering if someone can tell me the population of graded?

 

 

 

Are you asking about the Warks-231 population? Or all of the Godiva's?

 

I have this 231 in MS65BN. Picked it up at the FUN Winter 2014 show from Ernie Latter. I looked for over 3 years for a nice one though -- they aren't rare, but they seem to be hard to find in gem.

 

HT, is yours designated RB?

 

-Brandon

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Below are the pops that NGC lists as of today, 28 Sep 2015 for the Godiva pieces (but I seriously doubt they are complete). That means there are at least 7 other MS65s around (besides mine and HT's) and at least 2 MS66s out there somewhere.

 

-Brandon

 

[coinsarefun]

Awesome Brandon!!!!

 

Just what I was looking for. Seems to be a fair amount of gem graded but I don't

see them out in the wild....i.e....shows or auctions.

 

Seems that PCGS has a few graded 64, two at 65 and one at 66

 

Wonder how many were crossed from here to there or were those submitted raw?

 

 

I saw this one for sale on the internet and is on its way to me.

Will try to take pic's the best I can and post them.

 

If anyone has seen this particular one in hand please let me know what you think about it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[brg5658]

Wonder how many were crossed from here to there or were those submitted raw?

 

That's the problem with census populations -- you can never really know. You just know the number of "grading events" at each service. You can't know the corrected numbers for resubmissions or crossovers.

 

Also, NGC has been grading Conders for a LOT longer than PCGS -- and while their recently released censuses of them are better than nothing, I know from personal experience that there are some pieces missing. My best guess is that this is because NGC has a difficult time massaging their data into clear counts because of the various text that they have printed on the labels over time. In fact, I'm pretty sure my DH-231 is not among those currently counted in the census, as it doesn't link up with the census when you look at the cert-verify page.

 

I noticed the same thing with the populations of their CWTs -- something is better than nothing, but there can certainly also be some graded tokens out there in NGC holders that are not listed in the pops.

 

==================

 

With regard to your token Stef, it looks to be a nice example. These Godiva's go for strong money in gem. I paid $425 for mine I believe 2 years ago. They aren't as silly money-wise as some of the "End of Pain" tokens, but they are certainly popular and demand high prices. I was fine paying up for mine because I really liked the look of my example and I was able to see it in hand -- and I am holding it long (35-40 years).

 

Keep us posted when it arrives! Congrats!

 

-Brandon

[coinman1794]

I noticed the same problem in the newly released Medals census. The reports are missing some pieces that I have handled or actually own.

[coinsarefun]

Thanks Brandon, will do

[coinsarefun]

My pic's aren't as good as you guy's but the token is beautiful....very happy.

 

 

 

Geeez, just realized how big the pic was.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2015 by coinsarefun

[Hard Times]

Nice Godiva's Brandon and Stephanie! Brandon, mine is not designated RB. Noticed the slight rub at the high points on mine, really a 58, but market grading is what it is. Brandon I think I remember when you picked yours up at FUN, rich color for sure, excellent strike.

 

Best, Al

[coinsarefun]

Below are my winnings from Baldwin Basement Auction and they are on their way to me. Below are the auction images.

All in all the prices were not to bad until I got into a one on one bid frenzy for the silver Lion.......but had to have him.

 

Auction descriptions and images.

 

1793 Skidmore, Copper Halfpenny, D&H Middlesex 834

The surfaces lightly hairlined, otherwise essentially mint state and attractively toned, rare

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D&H Dublin 404Skidmore, Copper Farthing mule, 1796, obv female seated holding a harp, HIBERNIA above, rev bust in profile left,

Jacobs below, ROBERT ORCHARD 1796 around, edge milled

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D&H Middlesex 906 Richard Summers, Copper Halfpenny

A few microscopic brush marks, otherwise nearly as made, rare.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

William Till, Silver Halfpenny, 1794, obv lion rampant to left, HALFPENNY TOKEN . SLOUGH . BUCKS *RED LION INN *

around, rev view of an inn, MDCCXCIV in exergue, edge plain (Atkins p.5, 22; D&H Buckinghamshire 24; Preston-Morley 1046).

A few spots and light brush marks, otherwise nearly mint state and attractively toned, very rare.

 

 

BTW......it states it as min state but no mention of proof.....I understood these to be proof issued...unless I was mis informed.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jon20]

Beautiful tokens in this thread. I just recently took an interest in these and have only picked up a few poor examples, but I've had a great time browsing the last ~50 pages. Just to keep with the spirit of this thread I'll post one, although it's not nearly as nice as the ones the rest of you have:

 

 

This token depicts the Dunkirk wool mill in Somerset, near Bath. This was the first minting (i think), and features a prominent typo in the name Dunkirk. Later variants corrected this and added mention of Somerset below. I was able to locate the site of the building, and it still exists, although it's lost a couple floors over the centuries! It's since been converted into very expensive housing.

 

Is there somewhere with a photographic database of all known Conders? Also, would one of you mind explaining some of the jargon associated with these coins? I assume D&H numbers are some sort of cataloging system, but where can I access that catalog? Is it available online or only in print?

[CyberspaceVoid]

Monolith,

 

I don't know .... your token looks might fine to me!

 

D&H is indeed a catalog system, and the term refers to Dalton & Hamer who compiled a massive, but apparently not entirely complete, listing of the late 18th century merchant tokens (named at least in America) after an early British collector named James Conder who created one of the first catalogues. The D&H catalogue has been out of print for many years although copies can still be found if you are lucky. Fortunately there are rumors that a new edition is in the works, and there is also a more recent electronic catalogue entitled The Provincial Token-Coinage of the 18th Century Digital Quick Reference by NumiSource, LLC (ISBN-13: 978-0-9841402-0-6 or ISBN-10: 0-9841402-0-4) if you don't have a couple of hundred dollars to spend or don't want to wait.

 

The way the catalogues are set up is first by "country" (England, Scotland, Wales, Ireland), then by county /shire, and finally by number. There is no particular rhyme or reason to the assigned number other than using an alphabetic suffix for a variety (sometimes, but not always). Let's just say that cataloging these was more of an art than a science .....

 

As there are about 10,000 different tokens you might want to try and concentrate on some type of a theme. .... for instance, at the current time I am trying to put together a set of items from Matthew Boulton's Soho Mint for a club presentation. Whatever you chose to collect it will be well worth your time, just don't bid against me! Kidding of course (no I'm serious (shakes fist) ).

 

The people in on this thread are extremely helpful, so if you have a question just ask and I am sure someone will be glad to answer. Welcome to the wonderful world of Conder Tokens!

 

Cheers!

 

Wendy

[Jon20]

Thanks very much for the info, Wendy!

 

As with most of my collecting (and my life!), focus is hard to come by. I tried for years to focus my book collection and it's still a hodge podge of disparate texts with no real theme.

[brg5658]

William Till, Silver Halfpenny, 1794, obv lion rampant to left, HALFPENNY TOKEN . SLOUGH . BUCKS *RED LION INN *

around, rev view of an inn, MDCCXCIV in exergue, edge plain (Atkins p.5, 22; D&H Buckinghamshire 24; Preston-Morley 1046).

A few spots and light brush marks, otherwise nearly mint state and attractively toned, very rare.

 

BTW......it states it as min state but no mention of proof.....I understood these to be proof issued...unless I was mis informed.

 

 

WOW!!! That piece is gorgeous, but the bidding did go a bit crazy at £2,100 (~ $3,200).

 

I also love the lion design, and have it in copper. These Till tokens are an odd bunch, having actually been struck in the 1830s and 1840s by WJ Taylor for Till, not in the year 1794 or 1795 as they are dated. It's been a bit of a mystery to me as to why they were ever lumped with the other 1787-1804 provincial pieces other than the fact they carry these fictitious dates. The original compilers of the token series -- Pye (1795 and 1801), Birchall (1796), Conder (1798), etc. -- never would have seen these as they were issued years later. Nonetheless, I wouldn't worry too much if your silver piece is technically a proof or a mint state example.

 

Congrats on your new tokens! (thumbs u

[brg5658]

Is there somewhere with a photographic database of all known Conders? Also, would one of you mind explaining some of the jargon associated with these coins? I assume D&H numbers are some sort of cataloging system, but where can I access that catalog? Is it available online or only in print?

 

As Cyberspacevoid mentioned, D&H stands for Dalton & Hamer. Their guide is the primary numbering system for Conder tokens used for cataloging.

 

The full original catalog is available for browsing online at this link.

 

The best user-friendly version of the Dalton & Hamer reference (in my opinion) is the electronically available (PDF) version of the guide called "The Ultimate Guide to Conder Tokens" which can be purchased for $75 online at this link. It is worth every penny of the price, and is invaluable for searching for text legends, edge letterings, and has pictures of every token with descriptions.

 

You may also want to give the Wikipedia article on Conder Tokens a read. I added tons of new content to that page with cited references back in 2013. Most of the main references are cited there, and the history and collecting of the tokens is described.

 

Best, Brandon

[Conder101]

There IS a new book on the Conder tokens coming, the proofs are at the printer now. I don't know if it will follow the D&H format and/or if all the new listings will be folded nto the main body of the work. They don't have a price for it yet, possibly in the $125- $150 range. It is being done by Bll McKivor. Supposed to be available in Nov or Dec. (I'm already on the waiting list for a regular and a leatherbound copy. Currently limited to 20 copies of the leatherbound but if there is enough interest that may go higher. My order was 13th copy reserved.) Information can be found on his latest price list

http://www.thecoppercorner.com/Conder%20C%202015.pdf

[CyberspaceVoid]

Brandon,

 

Thanks for that link to the D&H pdf file! I had no idea it was available for download, and it now also resides on my laptop. I agree, the "Ultimate Guide" is also a great product ... I just couldn't find a link to it while I am sitting here in SE Asia. The hard drive on my personal laptop had crashed and I lost all my references available to me here I will be soooo glad to get back to the States and all my "stuff"

 

 

 

Conder,

 

I will have to look into that new work from Bill McKivor ..... knowing his material (and I lust after a lot of his coppers) it should be an extraordinary volume.

 

Cheers to both!

 

W

[coinsarefun]

 

 

 

 

 

WOW!!! That piece is gorgeous, but the bidding did go a bit crazy at £2,100 (~ $3,200).

 

I also love the lion design, and have it in copper. These Till tokens are an odd bunch, having actually been struck in the 1830s and 1840s by WJ Taylor for Till, not in the year 1794 or 1795 as they are dated. It's been a bit of a mystery to me as to why they were ever lumped with the other 1787-1804 provincial pieces other than the fact they carry these fictitious dates. The original compilers of the token series -- Pye (1795 and 1801), Birchall (1796), Conder (1798), etc. -- never would have seen these as they were issued years later. Nonetheless, I wouldn't worry too much if your silver piece is technically a proof or a mint state example.

 

Congrats on your new tokens! (thumbs u

 

 

 

 

Thanks Brandon. I must admit I went overboard on the silver Red Lion Inn and aware of the after fact date.......but I don't see another opportunity to get one and will hold onto it indefinately.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[CyberspaceVoid]

The "Lions" are indeed spectacular ..... in fact, my first Conder was Till's other design, a D&H 22.... NGC lists it at a MS-63, but I think it should have been graded a tad bit higher.

 

https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinView.aspx?sc=203726