Plus Designations on Roosevelts

[Paul Kiraly 3]

What will be worth more in point values..Roosevelts- A ms67FT STAR or a MS67FT PLUS...This is the question on a lot of roosevelt collectors minds...

[Simple Collector]

If I understand correctly, the plus designation will not apply to the Roosevelt dimes. The NGC announcement excerpt is as follows:

 

"Aspects of the service offered by NGC and PCGS are similar. The plus designation applies only to US coins from select classic series, and it is not currently planned to be applied to modern coinage issues. Additionally, it will be used on eligible coins grading from the XF-range up to MS 68. For coins to be evaluated for the plus designation, submitters will have to opt in to a plus designation review service in addition to the standard grading tier."

 

 

[onlyroosies]

This is what I was told...

 

Hi Nick:

 

Thank you for contacting us about the Plus Designation. When we begin our service, all Federal Issues 1792 to 1964 will be eligible, including Roosies, of course.

 

Regards,

 

Scott Schechter

Vice President, Sales & Marketing

Certified Collectibles Group

NGC, NCS, PMG and CGC

 

[onlyroosies]

Paul,

 

I would expect an MS67+FT to garner more points than an MS67*FT. The plus designation represents the top 10% - 15% of the grade range. My understanding is the coin garnering the plus designation just misses the next grade. Don't expect to see more then 5% - 10% of the pop of any grade given the plus. Basically you would be saying an MS68+FT just misses the MS69FT grade. I don't think we will be seeing to many of those, and if we do they definitely deserve points greater than what the star would have. Now get the star and plus and you have a monster.

Don't expect to see a bunch of plus designations in the MS67 - MS68 grade range.

[erwindoc]

I cannot wait to see how this plays out!!

 

I would also assume that coins can have both a star and a plus, since they stand for different things. I guess we will have to wait and see what they decide to do and how they allocate points.

[onlyroosies]

 

I was playing with the points in the Roosevelt series and a plus designated coin IMHO should get about 80% of the next grade up points. If you have an MS67+FT it should get points of about 20% less then what an MS68FT gets. Same scenario for MS67+*FT. It should get about 20% less then want an MS68*FT would get. For the Roosevelt series this would give the plus a much greater point value then just having the star designation. Not taking away from the star designation as I do not believe their values will be diminished. I think plus designated coin values will substantially increase.

 

I have never seen a Silver Roosevelt dime what I would consider an MS69*FT. I have seen a few that I would consider MS68+*FT. I do not expect to see 2 maybe 3 Silver Roosies graded MS68+*FT, or even MS68+FT...

 

Of course this is all just my opinion

 

Onlyroosies Out

[Paul Kiraly 3]

i couldnt imagine what a ms68*+ FT would bring on the open market

[physics-fan3.14]

i couldnt imagine what a ms68*+ FT would bring on the open market

 

Of course, it must have CAC as well

 

This is really ridiculous. Do I really need 5 different qualifiers to tell me thats a nice coin? Buyers are going to get too confused, and the price will actually go down.

[onlyroosies]

I'm looking forward to the plus designation. Anyone who has labored building a high quality set will benefit. With the silver Roosevelt series there is to big of a price gap between the MS67FT and MS68FT grade. You have a $350 MS67FT and then for the same date in MS68FT it jumps to $3500. The plus will bring in a "Gap" grade and will price somewhere between the $350 and $3500 for an MS67+FT, and deservingly so. Pricing will also depend on how NGC calculates the points for plus designated coins in the registry. I'm excited......

 

I'm hoping the launch of the NGC plus designation will be at the Long Beach Show in 4 weeks. I'm preparing between 50 - 100 Roosies to submit for the plus designation at NGC.

 

Nick Cascio

[onlyroosies]

the verdict is in. The points for plus are now listed. I'm a little disapointed to see that the star points have been changed again too. Plus designations are given the same points as the star. A 67*FT gets the same points as a 67+FT. IMHO the plus represents a higher quality coin which includes eye appeal and should be rewarded higher then a star which is just eye appeal. I don't think we will see as high a value in the market place for the plus as I was expecting. The value increase will be in the coins designated with a star and a plus. High quality attractively toned coins will do well. No so for all the others.....Just a plus or just a star will become the norm. Non plus and non star coins may see a decrease in value. I will be sending in far fewer coins then I originally planned.

 

Just My Humble Opinion

 

Onlyroosies Out

[Simple Collector]

As i stated in a few earlier posts, I do not like the idea of the Plus designation at all. My problem with it is that there is no definite standard therefore it is just as subjective as the * designation.

[bsandersen-migration]

Lonnie & Nick,

 

I agree with your comments in regards to the definitive standards and/or lack of guidance along with the points associated with the new +designation. It seems as though the payback isn't there for + graded coins and NGC is ultimately dictating what a +designated coin is going to be which equates to the same problem we have now with "star" graded coins...inconsistency. Consistency is everything and it is missing at the moment. WIth that said what should we be paying for a MS67FT*+ coin over a MS67FT* coin? The difference in points looks to be about 30% across the board for MS67 coins and about 15% for MS68 graded coins. This should be an intersting transition for collectors and NGC!

 

BA

[Scott_Schechter]

Since there are no plus coins in the marketplace yet, we didn’t want to place huge premiums out of the gate. We took the conservative posture that at the outset we should value them in the same as stars and make an adjustment when warranted.

 

Both designations receive a bonus of 25% of the difference between the score for its grade and the grade above. For example, let’s look at an MS67+ coin. If an MS67 gets 1,000 points and an MS68 gets 1,600, the MS67+ gets 1,150. Same with an MS67* star. If the MS67 coin has a plus and a star, in this scenario, it would receive 1,300 points.

 

We calculate these values using a formula because we’re currently tracking over 1,000,000 score records in the Registry. We need to use algorithms to make this task manageable. It’s not a 100% perfect system, and that’s why keep refining it.

 

I agree that the plus designation would seem to indicate greater value on an MS67FT or MS68FT Roosie than a star would on coins of those grades. However at lower grade levels the exact opposite is likely true. A multi-color, album toned MS63* is more desirable than a pleasing, but colorless MS63+ Roosevelt.

 

We appreciate how invested everyone is in making the NGC Registry as good as it can be, and we listen to all the feedback that we get – making necessary changes in response. Same will be true here.

 

[bsandersen-migration]

Scott,

 

Thanks for the feedback...I think NGC took the easy way out and assigned a percentage to star and plus instead of leaving the star points alone and just assigning points for the plus. All the star points were discussed last year and now NGC adjusted them again greatly affecting those collectors that have spent A LOT of money working on "star" sets. The plus coupled with the star could have been huge for collectors and NGC. The points lost for the star will now require a plus and star to make them up. My set took the second biggest hit behind the Lablover Set primarily due to the fact that our sets consist of hard to find/beautifully toned coins. Is NGC going to refund the extra $$$$ that collectors paid out to aquire star coins...of course not. Bottom line is value is directly tied to the points received. I still feel points and the census should be tied together in some way or another. Think supply and demand...in some cases finding FT coins is easier than finding a "star" coin and can be reversed in other cases/years.

 

Just my two cents...NGC's consideration on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

Brian

[Paul Kiraly 3]

Brian, I totally disagree with you. Since I started collecting roosevelts in 2007, I always wanted a Fully Struck coin. A Full Torch roosevelt coin is 100 times harder to find than a toned roosevelt coin. I cannot tell you how many hours I will go through dimes at coin shows only to walk out with a small handfull of FT Roosevelts. When You first started your roosevelt collection,I told you not to spend all your money on stars. A ms67 and a MS67* is the same coin.NGC's Opinion says a Star just has better eye appeal. You was buying the slab,not the coin. Every seroius collector will tell you strike is what matters in a coin,not toning.

Just because there are 2 ms67*s and 25 ms67FT,dont and a ms67*rare. Add up the ms67* and the MS67 together,and that is about the pop so far. You really need to go to coin shows and look for FT roosevelts...when you see how many are not FT, You will understand that a FT is better that an star anyday. There are millions of NOT FT roosevelts out there. The plus degsination will cover an extremely struck roosevelt,It will bring a new degree of hardness to the registery.Brian,I am proud you bought that 1950-P and 1951-S ms68FT's.Those 2 coins are better than any other 5 coins you have in your registery. Sometimes you may need to stumble and crawl ,to find the light at the end.You are getting there ,but it takes time and money..

 

 

[Lablover]

A ms67 and a MS67* is the same coin.

 

 

 

[Schatzy]

A ms67 and a MS67* is the same coin.

 

 

 

You was buying the slab,not the coin.

 

 

 

In Paul's case I think that is all he does!!

[onlyroosies]

Paul, I don’t know where to begin, I can’t find one sentence in your post I agree with. Let me break it down and add

My 2 cents.

 

 

 

Brian, I totally disagree with you. Since I started collecting Roosevelt’s in 2007, I always wanted a Fully Struck coin.:

 

I don’t remember it that way Paul. You always wanted the slab that said FT. FT does not mean fully struck. A Roosevelt dime can be fully struck and not be FT because the die that was used for that batch did not have the bands correctly cut into it. I have seen poorly struck FT dimes and boldly struck non-FT dimes.

 

 

 

A Full Torch Roosevelt coin is 100 times harder to find than a toned Roosevelt coin. I cannot tell you how many hours I will go through dimes at coin shows only to walk out with a small handful of FT Roosevelt’s.:

 

I’m going to give you that one. But, I don’t believe our discussion is about toned dimes. It’s about exceptional eye appeal where NGC awards the coin a star. I have seen beautiful blast white Roosies that were awarded the star. As far as what is harder to find? NGC Roosevelt dimes with exceptional eye appeal awarded the star are harder to find than NGC Roosevelt dimes awarded just the FT.

 

 

 

When you first started your Roosevelt collection, I told you not to spend all your money on stars. A MS67 and a MS67* is the same coin. NGC's opinion says a Star just has better eye appeal.:

 

Are you kidding me. Wasn’t an MS67 and an MS67FT the same coin before the FT designation ever existed. A star is not just better eye appeal, It’s exceptional eye appeal. Mr. Market says no they are not the same. I agree with Lablovers post on this one.

 

 

You was buying the slab, not the coin.:

 

I have dealt with Brian quite a bit and he is not someone I would say buys the slab. Quite the contrary. I would bet money that if you and Brian each sent your Roosevelt Set’s back to NGC for regrade his set would produce more plus designations for quality then your set. I’m not one to knock on someone else’s set. But, when you attack Brian like that I’m going to defend.

 

 

 

Every serious collector will tell you strike is what matters in a coin, not toning.:

 

In the silver Roosevelt Series I don’t think so. You keep confusing strike with FT and toning with exceptional eye appeal. FT and strike are related but not the same thing, as is toning and the star designation.

 

 

 

Just because there are 2 ms67*s and 25 ms67FT, don’t and a ms67* rare. Add up the ms67* and the MS67 together and that is about the pop so far. You really need to go to coin shows and look for FT Roosevelt’s... when you see how many are not FT, You will understand that a FT is better than an star any day.:

 

We can just say add up all the MS67’s and that is the pop. Fact is that an MS67 is one beast, an MS67* another and an MS67FT yet another. NGC say’s they are different, that’s why each gets different points in the registry. FT over star. Star over FT. That is a collector preference.

 

 

 

There are millions of NOT FT Roosevelt’s out there.:

 

OK you got this one right. I admit I was wrong when I said I can’t find one sentence I agree with.

 

 

 

The plus designation will cover an extremely struck Roosevelt, It will bring a new degree of hardness to the registry. Brian, I am proud you bought that 1950-P and 1951-S ms68FT's.Those 2 coins are better than any other 5 coins you have in your registry. Sometimes you may need to stumble and crawl, to find the light at the end. You are getting there , but it takes time and money..:

 

We all know about stumbling and crawling, don’t we Paul. I consider Brian an advanced and passionate Roosevelt Dime collector and consider his set one of the finest on the registry in terms of quality and eye appeal.

 

 

[physics-fan3.14]

I gotta say, you Roosie guys are some passionate peeps.

[Lablover]

A Full Torch roosevelt coin is 100 times harder to find than a toned roosevelt coin.

 

Just some quick math assuming we're talking "Star" graded when reference to "toned" Roosevelt dime.

 

There are 70,656 (all grades/dates) graded Roosevelts according to NGC. Of those 10,309 are graded FT, or 14.6% of all graded Roosevelts.

 

There are 1,218 Roosevelts graded that have the Star designation. That's 1.7% of the total graded Roosevelts.

 

I'd say it's harder to find a Star designated Roosie than it's FT brother. According to the math it's 8 times harder to find a Star designated Roosie vs FT.

 

You was buying the slab,not the coin

 

Minding reading are we?

 

Every seroius collector will tell you strike is what matters in a coin,not toning

 

Really? I'd say I'm a "serious collector" and could not disagree more.

[Paul Kiraly 3]

A star is a matter of opinion..I have some nice rainbow toned roosevelts that are not stars. And your Quote:" There are 70,656 (all grades/dates) graded Roosevelts according to NGC. Of those 10,309 are graded FT, or 14.6% of all graded Roosevelts". I can send in a 55 gallon drum of roosevelts that are not FT 's..No one wants to send a non FT to NGC,It doesnt bring any money.. You really need to stop smoking that funny stuff. You cant think straight..

[rainbow roosie]

This is my first post here in quite a while; had to re-register to gain access.

 

First off: Hi roosie guys, you are all the best even when you are bickering!

 

Second: My take on stars, +, FT -- - - collect what you like. Personally, I'm glad many are chasing FT coins because it leaves monster color coins for me

 

My philosophy has remained the same for 20+ years doing roosies; buy the best coin you see. I've tossed out numerous 68s and FTs and replaced them with 67s because I thought they were better. For example, I made and sold a 52S in 68*FT becuse my PCGS 68 coin was better. I guess I don't have as many "points" as many of you do, but I'd gladly place my set side by side with anyone's to allow critics to assess which set they like best. I'm pretty damn confident anyone viewing my set in person will be suprised at how cool it looks as "a set."

 

This brings me to the point I wanted to make having read the above string. Plastic is plastic and coins are coins. If you KNOW your series, you trust your judgement more than PCGS/NGC graders. The grade on the plastic is just someone's opinion; even the grading services state it is an opinion. How you perceive the coin is what matters unless you are a collector of "plastic."

 

Most of my set is in PCGS holders because I think they display the color better. Onlyroosies is always chasing me to submit them to NGC for upgrades/*s, but I don't. I'd surely get a bunch more "points." but what if a coin was damaged during the slabbing procedure? How do you replace unique items? Answer: you can't. This fear of damaging a coin keeps me out of any upgrade race, and thankfully, I realy don't care....my coins are what they are...

 

Finally, just because a holder says FT or FB does NOT mean the coin makes the grade; similarly, I've seen some * coins I could not believe were in the holders...everyone has a bad day.

 

 

rainbowroosie

[Paul Kiraly 3]

rainbowroosie has a similar point to everyone of us. In our own collection,we all try to have the best coins we love. rainbowroosie has some amazing coins,that I would love to have in my collection. If you ever descide to sell, I would love to own your coins. You have some amazing pics of your coins . I really dont think my collection will ever be complete untill I have ms68FT' s or better in every mint mark and year my collection. I know some years that the ms68ft do not exist yet. I will be waiting. I even started on ms68*FB Mercurys....I really have to be insane to do this...We are all different in our aspecs of collecting. This has to be one of the most expensive hobbies ever known. Even in our roosevcelt dime minds, other collectors who collect gold or platinum cant even figure what our big deal is, because they will never understand !!!!!

Most collectors wont even try roosevelts,because of the degree of difficulty that is needed. Not only do we collect stars and Full torches, now pluses have been added in the mix...

It is hard to become great friends in the registry. When a coin comes up and we all need it, someone has to be stabbed in the back. It is fun to try to get the best coins. I believe we all strive to get the best coins we can. We are all in love with our coins. Hell I love my coins even more than my GF. ......Take care

[rainbow roosie]

Paul et al,

You guys can have all the FTs you want; leave the monster toning for me!!

[Schatzy]

You guys can have all the FTs you want; leave the monster toning for me!!

 

Here is PF-69 Star Cameo for your viewing pleasure!!

[Lablover]

When a coin comes up and we all need it, someone has to be stabbed in the back.

 

If I have to stab someone in the back to get a coin then it's not worth owning. I hope your kidding with the comment.

 

 

[rainbow roosie]

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=10657

 

Schatzy,

check this set.

[Schatzy]

http://coins.www.collectors-society.com/registry/coins/SetListing.aspx?PeopleSetID=10657

 

Schatzy,

check this set.

 

Great Set......Here is my set!!

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=4009774&fpart=1

http://boards.collectors-society.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=3306463&fpart=1

[Paul Kiraly 3]

I have a 1955 Proof 69 U.C..... Beautiful frosting...Its in my registry

[onlyroosies]

 

I see that Dan registered his "closr to perfect" Roosie set and took the #3 spot.

Thats pretty good considering PCGS does not use the star designation of which

about 80% of his coins would get. I also noticed that when viewing the set the plus designation shows as a star. You have to click on the coin to see if it's a star or plus. I wonder if NGC knows that or if it's something thet're still working on. I hope Dan also registers his clad set.