What does the CAC sticker mean?

[fuzzball-migration]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

 

 

[Schatzy]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

 

 

Welcome

 

Link to website

CAC-verified.

Because Confidence in a Coin's Quality is Priceless.

 

Whether you're a novice or advanced collector, you know that quality is what determines the value of a rare coin. However, within any certified coin grade, not all coins are "solid" quality coins. Now there's an easy way to identify coins that are solid for the grade - a CAC verification sticker.

 

CAC was founded by leading members of the numismatic community who recognized the need for a higher level of grading. With CAC, prices for the solid quality coins can be untethered from the lesser quality counterparts.

A CAC sticker means:

 

* It has been verified as meeting our strict quality standards.

* CAC is an active bidder on many CAC coins. In fact, CAC has recently purchased over $100 million of CAC verified coins.

 

Want confidence in the quality of a coin? Look for the CAC sticker

[123cents]

Welcome to the forum!

[Keigwin]

The CAC sticker is another one of those controversial tags, like pluses, stars, and strike designations, you see on slabbed coins. To many collectors (some would say those a little insecure with their grading skills) it inspires confidence that the TPG grade on the label is correct.

 

Talk with enough collectors and you will hear gripes about the sticker just as you do about the TPG grade or extra designation. But for many, the sticker instills confidence that the coin is solid for the grade.

 

Personally, I do not attach any special value to the stickers. It's like someone saying "you're right" when you know you are. But it never hurts to have it and CAC is very generous about their fees.

Lance.

[Kenneth F]

Oh, people love to jack up the prices because of those stupid stickers.

[Mark T]

Oh, people love to jack up the prices because of those stupid stickers.

 

No they jack up the price because the majority of coins with a CAC sticker deserve a premium.

[Walkerfan]

Oh, people love to jack up the prices because of those stupid stickers.

 

No they jack up the price because the majority of coins with a CAC sticker deserve a premium.

 

It's true that some DO deserve a premium but some don't, so as I've said before, I don't pay attention to the sticker when buying. If I like the coin, then I buy it sticker or not. HOWEVER, to be perfectly honest, I'd rather have a slab with the sticker, than without one and here's why: It's not for MYSELF but for the added value it gives to my coins in the open marketplace, since it DOES mean alot to many others and THEY are willing to pay more for it. So as a SELLER it is useful to me. So just like anything else, when buying, don't put ALL your faith in that little green bean. Make sure that YOU agree with it, too. That's just about as unbiased and objective as I can be about it. CAC offers a good, affordable service for those of us who want their high end coins recognized and I might consider paying to have a couple of mine stickered sometime in the future for the added value that it usually brings.

[Dudley the 1st]

Oh, people love to jack up the prices because of those stupid stickers.

 

No they jack up the price because the majority of coins with a CAC sticker deserve a premium.

 

Not all, but I would say a good majority of them do deserve a premium . Many young collectors today either don't know or can't determine whether a coin is on the higher end or mid point for the assigned graded .

 

CAC is yet another tool in becoming an " experienced and knowledgeable " collector .

[James_OldeTowne]

Oh, people love to jack up the prices because of those stupid stickers.

 

No they jack up the price because the majority of coins with a CAC sticker deserve a premium.

 

Not all, but I would say a good majority of them do deserve a premium . Many young collectors today either don't know or can't determine whether a coin is on the higher end or mid point for the assigned graded .

 

CAC is yet another tool in becoming an " experienced and knowledgeable " collector .

Many coins with CAC stickers do deserve a small premium, but in my experience (I've looked at a few hundred now), so many stickered coins are generic, so the premium should literally be a couple of bucks or so. In other words, an 1881-S Morgan with a CAC stickers probably deserves to cost $52, if greysheet states $50.

 

A few stickered coins are worthy of large premiums, but this because the coins are nice, not because the slab has a sticker.

 

On the other hand, many stickered coins are really only about average for the grade, and some are below average, so these should not be given a premium at all.

 

And finally, numerous coins that do not have stickers are unquestionably worthy of a premium.

 

Confused enough ?

[TomB]

I've written similar statements to what I am about to write on multiple occasions within the forum, but will repeat again my thoughts on the issue. CAC is a tool that is available to all and, as such, it is quite similar to knowing how to use a loupe; having the knowledge to spot counterfeit pieces; understanding what manipulated and original coinage should look like or how they will likely appear; being able to interpret printed guide prices and auction results; understanding how to grade according to the ANA standards and how this grading differs from the various TPG grading standards; and learning all the options for buying and selling within the market.

 

Sadly, the vast majority of collectors ignore their study of coinage and thus are not truly numismatists. However, some folks pursue this knowledge and will happily listen to other opinions, regardless of whether or not they agree with those opinions. CAC can help all, but will help those who are willing to accept their help the most.

 

[Kurtdog]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

They're 4th-party endorsements on 3rd-party grades.

[noow]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

They're 4th 3rd-party endorsements on 3rd-party grades.

[physics-fan3.14]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

They're 4th 3rd-party endorsements on 3rd-party grades.

 

No, noow, they are actually 4th party assessments. You are the first party, the seller is the second party, the TPG's are third party. CAC is a fourth party verifying the third party's grade.

[noow]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

They're 4th 3rd-party endorsements on 3rd-party grades.

 

No, noow, they are actually 4th party assessments. You are the first party, the seller is the second party, the TPG's are third party. CAC is a fourth party verifying the third party's grade.

 

Actually, a 3rd party is an independant organization. This includes TPGs, CAC, McDonalds, etc.

 

 

So- It is a 3rd party opinion on a 3rd party's grade.

[RockMyAmadeus]

I am new at coin collecting and there is so much that I don't understand. One item that that I can't seem to get a handle on is the "CAC" sticker on some of the slabbed, graded coins. They seem to fetch more money at auctions, but I don't know why. Can someone out there explain this to a poor lost fuzzball coin collector?

They're 4th 3rd-party endorsements on 3rd-party grades.

 

No, noow, they are actually 4th party assessments. You are the first party, the seller is the second party, the TPG's are third party. CAC is a fourth party verifying the third party's grade.

 

Actually, a 3rd party is an independant organization. This includes TPGs, CAC, McDonalds, etc.

 

 

So- It is a 3rd party opinion on a 3rd party's grade.

 

In this case, he's right. There's no such thing as a "4th party," insofar as the terms originally developed. All parties that are not you (1st) or the other involved party (2nd) are, by definition, 3rd, even though some wish to use the "4th party" designation.

[Tanman-migration]

"* CAC is an active bidder on many CAC coins. In fact, CAC has recently purchased over $100 million of CAC verified coins."

 

Anyone see an issue with this? I wonder how much of a premium a CAC sticker would command if CAC wasn't bidding up their own product. Also, I assume that at some point they sell the product they buy. They could just as easy buy unstickered slabs, put a sticker on them and sell them. Too many issues...

 

[Chris1976]

Excellent observation Tanman, I have had the same thoughts, but didnt want to rock the CAC Boat. My other question to that would be, "are they (CAC) paying the premium for the coins with their sticker or are they paying slightly more than the price given for the grade that's stated on the label instead of paying the price for a simular coin graded one point higher?"

 

But, everyone has their own thoughts on the "value" of a CAC sticker. My feelings are that it's simply a way for someone such as CAC to purchase coins that are undergraded at the listed grade and then turn around for a resubmit to make a profit. I'm sure that if they seen a coin that was (in their opinion) undergraded by two points or so which would give it a gold CAC sticker that typically sells for that FMV, and yet has a very substantial FMV increase at two points higher, I would imagine they would purchase at the lower price, resubmit, then resell at the newer FMV based on the upgraded label grade. Personally I feel they are simply taking everyone's money for them to evaluate and use the stickers as a way to mark which coins they had determined to be a safe investment that they could possibly make more profit from once it was regraded to the higher grade they feel it deserves. Think about it, they charge a fee for them to look at the coins and possibly place a sticker onto the coin holder as a way of assuring the owner that their coin is either correctly graded or undergraded. Seems more like they are taking your money to place a mark on coins they could buy and turn around for more money after a regrade.

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

CAC has the same Right to implement a Business Marketing Plan as anyone else.

 

Some people like Coke and some people like Pesi.

 

There are MANY capable Numismatists that can grade correctly numismatically, but can't Market grade. Does this make them any less capable?

 

I don't think it logical to equate CAC or PCGS or NGC, etc. Loyalty when purchasing a coin with inability to grade or to not be a Numismatist.

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[Mr.Mcknowitall]

Oops... for the Typo Opportunists like me, I meant to type "Pepsi".

 

Respectfully,

John Curlis

[oreville-migration]

CAC is a world class 4th party verification grader in my opinion. Their reputation is top drawer. I swear by their expertise and independent grading expertise. They had discovered some of my NGC and PCGS graded coins that were laden with PVC and a couple of gold coins that were puttied. I resubmitted them to NGC and PCGS and got the putty and PVC removed. in some cases, I had to dump the coins (still at a profit because of the rising price of gold) because the putty hid scratches, etc. fortunately the PVC laden coins were "saved" and then were able to be stickered by CAC.

 

My entire collection is now stickered by CAC except for those very few I chose to keep because I still liked the coin even though CAC would not sticker them. There are always some exceptions.

[noow]

CAC is a world class 3rd party verification grader in my opinion. Their reputation is top drawer. I swear by their expertise and independent grading expertise. They had discovered some of my NGC and PCGS graded coins that were laden with PVC and a couple of gold coins that were puttied. I resubmitted them to NGC and PCGS and got the putty and PVC removed. in some cases, I had to dump the coins (still at a profit because of the rising price of gold) because the putty hid scratches, etc. fortunately the PVC laden coins were "saved" and then were able to be stickered by CAC.

 

My entire collection is now stickered by CAC except for those very few I chose to keep because I still liked the coin even though CAC would not sticker them. There are always some exceptions.

Fixed

[Toblerone2-migration]

Wasn't the whole point of the grading services in the first place to accurately grade a coin, and have the coins trade sight-unseen based on their grade? And now, we need to "grade the grader"?? Where does this stop? Do I need someone to tell me if CAC's opinion is valid as well?

 

If you are buying coins with the idea that they should appreciate in value, buy ones that are attractive to you. And learn the basics of grading and counterfeit detection. This knowledge will serve you well, and you don't have to rely on a TP's opinion on the exact grade, which we have found generally changes over time anyway.

[BLive1972]

Yes, and it's also known that the TPGs aren't always accurate with their grade. In a lot of cases, I don't think a bean is necessary, but it helps when you're buying coins online. I think it's a good thing for new collectors. A bit of an expensive way to begin, but I think it works until you're able to properly grade on your own.

 

IMO, the premiums some sellers demand are ridiculous, but not everyone charges a high premium for them.

[coloneljessup-migration]

New here, but old (sigh) almost everywhere elsewhere..

 

A lot of the names in this story repeat themselves. If I get a few names wrong it's not so important, it's the market dynamics that matter.

 

When PCGS (Hall/Simmons, Dannreuther, Wrubel, Amspacher, Cyrkin, DiGenova, Albanese, DiGenova and Albanese leaving soon after) opened up in 1986, they introduced electronic trading for coins on a sight-unseen basis through the ANIE (American Numismatic Information Exchange) platform on a sight-unseen basis. Everybody knew each other. Everyone knew how much credit to extend.

 

Every bid and ask on ANIE was transparent .The bidders were known to each other and knew how much credit to extend. All coins in a grade were created equal. Never mind the nuance. Just ship it. Coins traded between dealers, to collectors, investors, like never before.

 

Soon after its start a year later, NGC (Albanese, Sear briefly, Salzberg soon after) coins were traded sight-unseen electronically along with PCGS coins on the new CCE (Certified Coin Exchange) platform. People were online buying the label fully confident they were buying the right coin, At a price that was as easy to find as an NYSE stock if you knew where to look.

 

Technically brutalized and obviously nice. At the prices paid they better be. Silver was a pittance. For our purposes it doesn't matter what the gold price is in Aug '88. But say 500-600? MS65 Morgans were $800. MS65 Saints were $4200. Sight-unseen.The market, the ultimate arbiter, decided value in an industry-wide auction. Coins in slabs really took off. Prices doubled. And damn near everything was market-acceptable. And everybody knew each other. Everyone knew how much credit to extend.

 

Fast forward to the middle of the last decade. Market-grading has shown its foibles and inconsistencies. Everyone's not so happy with other people's coins.

A few years before that divergence (or perception of such), started to bother people, Albanese leaves the grading room and Salzberg is chained to a chair in the grading room.

 

Albanese has a good check and everybody, unsurprisingly, knows what he likes a lot, and figures someone will need one, and that the less lovable yet fully likable will go quickly to someone who wants one.

 

He serves a a quality-control consultant for maybe 2%-3% on tens and tens of millions a year. A couple of years later he starts CAC. I heard $10M. He can get another $20M with a couple or three phone calls.

 

CAC contracts that they will buy beans sight-unseen in posted quantities at posted prices. This takes place on Coinplex. Other stuff happens on CCE. Sometimes the same. The coins with the bean aren't really sight-unseen. But all beans have been created equal. For CAC they are market-acceptable.

 

We want 50 MS65 Saints. Call, confirm and ship. Actually we can use another 50 more. Ship 'em. The check will go out tomorrow. We have enough Saints now. In the next few days we expect to sell another 50 more. But they're not sold yet. Drop our prices $35.

 

Other dealers bid for coins on Coinplex in just the same way. And sometime for more than CAC pays. And sometimes for PCGS and NGC coins both sight-seen and unseen. And all the dealers know each other and know how much credit to extend.

 

You don't have to love a coin to sell it. Just who to sell it to for a quick check. .

CAC would love to buy lots of coins and it you hit them with a million bucks, or better $10M, The wire goes as soon as Brinks leaves.

 

You pay $12.50 or $25 and get a bean or don't. They make a lot of money at it.. Albanese goes back, blinking, to the grading room. He pockets your money and your bean means you may be able to sell immediately to CAC or someone else for usually more than you could get last week,

.

CAC sets a price for what it want and you just call. Loonies.who love gorgeous make the gold bean market. All CAC coins are not created equal..

 

And there are usually " A" coins that bring premiums and "A+" at multiples. Any blind fool with a buck or two (who could get his hands on one) would buy an "A" for 10% over bid. Or 20%. And there are "B+" coins that a lot of people would be happy to pay full bid sight-seen, And "B" coins some people like and more than a few won't. And CAC will take them all. In that way, all CAC coins are equal. CAC buys them because it makes money selling them. They sticker them and once they've looked they don't to think at al hard about what they're buying. Whether NGC or PCGS. Call, confirm and ship.

 

They bought and sold a couple of 1804 $1's a couple of years ago and neither lasted 40 days. And brokered the Brasher. And beans may not have mattered on those. They make a market. Lots of people want to do business with them.

 

Sometimes your're disappointed when you see a bean. They can't make you happy with all their coins. But they are..

 

Maybe there are loads of guys who have this depth and breadth and financial acumen and customers and you don't know them. And they don't know you. They are out there. Unbeknownst. Not lurking though ! They're not running a racket on you.They're too busy making markets. Good products are harder to find out there. Some people will pay for what could be considered as market insurance. And everybody knows each other. And everyone knows how much credit to extend.

 

CAC makes a market. I probably said it four times. That's what your sticker means. I'll buy all your beans. Every bean is a coin.Like Steve Martin said in The Jerk. "I get it. It's a profit thing.

 

If I hadn't seen oreville's name on this thread, I would have boiled my spaghetti 90 minutes ago, So we can both now put the blame for this thread on him.

 

Oreville wants gold beans for dinner.

 

I will never speak of this again. Which MarkFeld rather doubts..

 

Perhaps now, at last, our kurtdog will cease howling at the moon.

 

[Toblerone2-migration]

Thank you Colonel, that was most helpful. What I got out of that is for a collector, a CAC bean means little other than "this is a coin that CAC will buy at their posted prices". That's fine for dealers, but it means little for collectors. For those of us buying one example of a 1878 Morgan, not 50, we want the coin that looks attractive at the grade we have decided to purchase. I'd say, we can either rely on the LCS or else take our chances online. Many is the time I've broken coins out of slabs, because the grade on the slab didn't do much for my opinion of the coin.

[slingshot-migration]

I often wondered how CAC maintained their market and the Colonel's comments have clarified that. I knew what a market maker in the stock market did pretty much and why but, I couldn't quite connect that to the coin market. Sometimes in a stock situation the market maker is the underwriter of the initial public offering. Therefore, the company has a reason to maintain a market as putting a bottom level on a stock stops their investment from going too low.

Coins with CAC is similar except that a tangible commodity is actually going

around and being valued rather than a stock certificate

Perhaps I have more to learn in both but, I do think I've advanced. Lastly,

I like about 1/3 of the CAC coins I see in photos. Perhaps in hand coin viewing it would be different. CAC to me seems to go for principally a well struck coin on gold and not so important with bag marks and red spots while I am. However, I suppose that is tastes. Thanks for shedding so much light on this. I've been away for 5 years or so from collecting and CAC was just starting up when I left. The market has developed a lot. I should add I mostly speak of the gold $2.50 indian where I have difficulty judging whether or not a coin has been cleaned but, I am pretty good at the strike differentiation..

[coinman_23885]

CAC = added liquidity

[johnny9434]

welcome to the forums. make your own judgement to cac in the above post. fwiw

[slingshot-migration]

I would like everyone to know that part of submitting a coin to CAC as a collector is that one needs to be an ANA member. At least that is the reply I received from CAC. Perhaps the old timers know this but, a newbee to the CAC process such as I doesn't.

[slingshot-migration]

Good variety in the value of CAC desirability or lack thereof. Great reading for the numismatists knowledge bank.