PCGS vs NGC PF70 Prices
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82 posts in this topic

On 7/25/2021 at 2:31 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Numis, what happened to the prices specifically that you say "tanked" ?

I think people realize that higher numbers of coins graded Pf 70 DCam that are not early strikes are just near perfect examples with not quite the eye appeal of the early strike coin. Since PCGS will not differentiate with a Star like qualifier, the few really superb early strike Pf 70 DCams have the same labels as the not so early strike coins. Thus many of these sell for lower prices. 

Edited by numisport
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On 7/31/2021 at 10:50 AM, numisport said:

I think people realize that higher numbers of coins graded Pf 70 DCam that are not early strikes are just near perfect examples with not quite the eye appeal of the early strike coin.

A. MS-70 or PF-70 means perfect as the coin comes from the dies.

B. Without specific production information, it is not possible to determine when, during die life, a coin was made. A few guesses might be attempted using known die wear conditions. Therefore any "eye appeal" is subjective and has no relation to "early strike" "first strike" "early ship" or "third strike, you're out" designations.

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On 7/31/2021 at 11:03 AM, RWB said:

A. MS-70 or PF-70 means perfect as the coin comes from the dies.

B. Without specific production information, it is not possible to determine when, during die life, a coin was made. A few guesses might be attempted using known die wear conditions. Therefore any "eye appeal" is subjective and has no relation to "early strike" "first strike" "early ship" or "third strike, you're out" designations.

The definition you provided for MS/PF 70 is not the same one that NGC and PCGS use. in the case of NGC, it’s:

What is a 70?

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification.

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On 7/31/2021 at 4:59 PM, MarkFeld said:

The definition you provided for MS/PF 70 is not the same one that NGC and PCGS use. in the case of NGC, it’s: What is a 70?

NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification.

The definition is the one used and accepted by the TPGs from Sheldon's book. The one quoted is actually more stringent since the coin has to pass unaltered through all production steps; Sheldon limited it to post-strike.

Edited by RWB
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On 7/31/2021 at 5:29 PM, RWB said:

The definition is the one used and accepted by the TPGs from Sheldon's book. The one quoted is actually more stringent since the coin has to pass unaltered through all production steps; Sheldon limited it to post-strike.

What other production steps are considered AFTER the striking steps ?  The coin goes on a converyor belt of some kind....gets dropped into a bin....bagged and counted.

Plenty of opportunities to get dinged in those steps, even if bag marks are discounted.

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On 7/31/2021 at 12:03 PM, RWB said:

A. MS-70 or PF-70 means perfect as the coin comes from the dies.

B. Without specific production information, it is not possible to determine when, during die life, a coin was made. A few guesses might be attempted using known die wear conditions. Therefore any "eye appeal" is subjective and has no relation to "early strike" "first strike" "early ship" or "third strike, you're out" designations.

You make a very good point however I'm having trouble making mine I guess. Just look at MS 70 silver Eagles and many have friction on the obverse breast plates from shipping in rolls. If I can see this with no magnification then it is not 70 even by TPG standards. When collectors paid several thousand dollars for a Pf 70 DCam Ike for instance, they might expect the most eye appeal for the money. Now as always eye appeal is of course subjective. And we also know that some series are graded technically while other especially older series are graded on eye appeal which makes the grade essentially an appraisal with many pieces having a mint state grade slapped on a lightly circulated (or rubbed) piece. So here is where the problem is..... collectors get stung because there is no consistency and therefore little or no guarantee to back that grade. Once those coins are in high grade holders, they will never get downgraded unless the grading services buy them. Do you see that happening ?

Edited by numisport
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On 8/1/2021 at 12:43 PM, numisport said:

You make a very good point however I'm having trouble making mine I guess. Just look at MS 70 silver Eagles and many have friction on the obverse breast plates from shipping in rolls. If I can see this with no magnification then it is not 70 even by TPG standards. When collectors paid several thousand dollars for a Pf 70 DCam Ike for instance, they might expect the most eye appeal for the money. Now as always eye appeal is of course subjective. And we also know that some series are graded technically while other especially older series are graded on eye appeal which makes the grade essentially an appraisal with many pieces having a mint state grade slapped on a lightly circulated (or rubbed) piece. So here is where the problem is..... collectors get stung because there is no consistency and therefore little or no guarantee to back that grade. Once those coins are in high grade holders, they will never get downgraded unless the grading services buy them. Do you see that happening ?

Happens all the time. Is despicable. Is misleading. Is unethical. Standard must be identical for all coins or it is worthless.

Your description shows how far down quality has sunk. The coins you mention must match either my posted definition (Sheldon) or the TPG's stated definition (see the quote from NGC site per Mark F.) Neither permits the pieces you describe. Letters to hobby publications might have some effect, but can never correct the misrepresentation that could exist.

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On 8/1/2021 at 12:43 PM, numisport said:

You make a very good point however I'm having trouble making mine I guess. Just look at MS 70 silver Eagles and many have friction on the obverse breast plates from shipping in rolls. If I can see this with no magnification then it is not 70 even by TPG standards. When collectors paid several thousand dollars for a Pf 70 DCam Ike for instance, they might expect the most eye appeal for the money.

(1)  Are we talking MS70 or PF70 (with or without DCAM) with the ASEs here ?

(2)  What does this "friction" look like -- just rub between coins that were shipped in rolls ?  Wouldn't the Proof coins at least (if not any speciallly segregated MS70's) be INDIVIDUALLY shipped/wrapped to the dealers/TPGs so they don't lose their pristine quality ?

If today's modern production methods can produce so many nearly-pristine perfect coins...seems weird to have them marred by simple shipping in rolls where they bang and clang as they touch one another.  Felt or velvet between them would work. (thumbsu

 

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The up and coming generation(s) of coin collectors are our hope and future.  They are the ones who will have wrestle with matters regarding ethical considerations and truth. Hopefully, they will peruse these posts and resolve to be credits to the profession by resolving to do what is right

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On 8/1/2021 at 8:12 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

The up and coming generation(s) of coin collectors are our hope and future.  They are the ones who will have wrestle with matters regarding ethical considerations and truth. Hopefully, they will peruse these posts and resolve to be credits to the profession by resolving to do what is right

Join. The. ANA. They are the ONLY organization even paying lip service to ethics in this field. If they’re not doing it well enough for you, BE THE CHANGE you want to see.

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On 8/4/2021 at 9:52 PM, VKurtB said:

Join. The. ANA. They are the ONLY organization even paying lip service to ethics in this field. If they’re not doing it well enough for you, BE THE CHANGE you want to see.

I'd love to but who's going to pay any attention to a 70 year old, illiterate, rag-picker and roostermeister living on a fixed-income in subsidized senior housing in East Harlem, New York?  

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On 8/4/2021 at 9:53 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I'd love to but who's going to pay any attention to a 70 year old, illiterate, rag-picker and roostermeister living on a fixed-income in subsidized senior housing in East Harlem, New York?  

Now I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN I’d be COVID phobic were I in your shoes. 

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On 8/4/2021 at 11:27 PM, VKurtB said:

Now I am ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN I’d be COVID phobic were I in your shoes. 

Nope, there have been about a dozen deaths in the 93-unit building we live in and, life for me, has never been better.  It's as quiet as a cemetery in here.  The streets are empty, the supermarket and local stores are sparcely patronized, the busses and subways are empty, the banks have greeters, guards and tellers. No platform assistants.  Few die-hard tourists.  To quote that old commercial:  "Who could ask for anything more?"

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On 8/5/2021 at 11:29 AM, Quintus Arrius said:

Nope, there have been about a dozen deaths in the 93-unit building we live in and, life for me, has never been better.  It's as quiet as a cemetery in here.  The streets are empty, the supermarket and local stores are sparcely patronized, the busses and subways are empty, the banks have greeters, guards and tellers. No platform assistants.  Few die-hard tourists.  To quote that old commercial:  "Who could ask for anything more?"

New York without crowds. Hmm. So what would be the point then?

Even Broadway has lost ALL appeal for me, and I used to be a Actor’s Equity cardholder in my youth. (I could belt a tune before my stroke.) Every show I haven’t already seen has gone all Wokey Preachy, and I refuse to pay to see that. 
 

If I go to the U.K. in the Spring, I’ll exit out of Dulles or Newark. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/5/2021 at 3:48 PM, VKurtB said:

New York without crowds. Hmm. So what would be the point then?

Valid question...

An inconsistent policy city/state policy which mandates masks in subways, supermarkets, banks, the post office, doctors' offices, etc.  When the cable guy showed up to reconfigure my equipment and program my Spectrum remote for use with my RCA TV (which required punching in 16 sets of 3-digit codes for a total of 48 numbers!) he came wearing a mask and my wife and I immediately donned masks as a simple courtesy.  (I know for a fact you have a mask to be used on an as-needed basis in your glove compartment.)  I believe masks will be with us a long time as the pandemic plays itself out.  I have noticed they tend to be a burden to asthma sufferers and I myself get headaches if I wear them continuously due to carbon dioxide.

Ponder this... EVERY train arriving and leaving Grand Central Terminal, with or without diesel locomotive propulsion, on the Metro-North commuter line, rush-hour and around-the-clock, spewing exhaust and steel dust along with high-decibel horn-blowing does so within six car-lengths of my building.  The invisible vs the visible and quite audible. I consider myself lucky: I spent virtually my entire life next to the LIRR's main line and directly under La Guardia airport's primary flight path. ✈️

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On 11/25/2009 at 1:20 PM, History Student said:

RE: PCGS - If they don't misplace your coins for 6 weeks and if you are not the boss and need to assist in the UPGRADE a tad.

 

 

 

 

Interesting.  I've dealt with PCGS since they came alive and never had a problem.  Also NGC - no problems there.  I can't remember how many weeks NGC took on my last submission but it wasn't over night.  Just saying.

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On 8/5/2021 at 4:34 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Interesting.  I've dealt with PCGS since they came alive and never had a problem.  Also NGC - no problems there.  I can't remember how many weeks NGC took on my last submission but it wasn't over night.  Just saying.

I believe my last submission for cross-grade consideration sat in receiving for little over a month before it was officially logged in as "received."  There was no question it would "cross" as I sent them the better of the two I have.  😉

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On 8/5/2021 at 4:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

There was no question it would "cross"

Do you have a complaint?  :slapfight:

I have two separate submissions in.  Both submitted under Regular Tier, according to PCGS, on 7/22/2021.  1 Submission is now in Quality Check.and the second Submission is in Grading.  14 days so far and it is fine with me.  Months ago I became Covidized and received the gift of Patience.  I am now Content.  :insane:

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On 8/5/2021 at 3:29 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I know for a fact you have a mask to be used on an as-needed basis in your glove compartmen

I used to, but not anymore. 

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On 8/5/2021 at 3:52 PM, Quintus Arrius said:

I believe my last submission for cross-grade consideration sat in receiving for little over a month before it was officially logged in as "received."  There was no question it would "cross" as I sent them the better of the two I have.  😉

My last 3 form, 10 coin submission was entered into NGC’s computers one business day after they received it. I dropped it/them off at the NGC booth at Summer FUN. And I have maybe 10 more to drop off at the ANA show next week. Some of those are PCGS to NGC crossovers. 
 

Moral of the story? NGC works, Frontier Airlines? Not s’much. 

Edited by VKurtB
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On 8/5/2021 at 5:06 PM, Alex in PA. said:

Do you have a complaint?  :slapfight:

I have two separate submissions in.  Both submitted under Regular Tier, according to PCGS, on 7/22/2021.  1 Submission is now in Quality Check.and the second Submission is in Grading.  14 days so far and it is fine with me.  Months ago I became Covidized and received the gift of Patience.  I am now Content.  :insane:

No complaint, sir!   🐓

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