"Altered Surface", The need for a more comprehensive definition?

[ant]

So then let me understand the conumdrum.

 

By allowing the experts to give you an a vague and undefinable answer "it doesn't look right" ..... Go figure!

 

I'm inclined to agree that the "altered surfaces" designation on a body bag leaves much to be desired when describing the "NO GRADE". Graders are supposed to be pros, can't they at least venture an educated guess to justify keeping the fee? I don't mean a scientific treatise but how about something more than "It looked messed with." ?

 

i have been saying the tpgcs need to SHOW there work for a long time now. in grading they show there work by giving a # grade and slabbing the coin. but with the BB (body bagged) coins whos to say they arent just swamped in work and want to rush orders out?

they will never do this cause then they would have less resubmits. and just like big corp. they are about the money and not the service.

 

i have seen people start to send the BBed coins to a different tpgc. which is better than sending it back to the people that saw it first. at least the money is being spread arround.

i myself would send far more for grading if i didnt get taken by the BB card all the time. id be happy with a BBed coin if it said what was wrong with it ( ding on rim 9oclock, scratch on obv, ......) but they want to leave it wide open by things like ( not gradeable, altered surface, cleaned, improp cleaned....)

 

i wonder how embaressed they are when folks report that a coin that ngc BBed was then graded on resubmit. do they understand that this sort of action doesnt exactly say PRO. it makes it look more of a guess. which most of us can do anyway!

[MarkFeld]

Why limit this to MS coins?

Because, for example, generally speaking, it is much easier to distinguish an XF from an AU or a VF from an XF than it is an MS63 from an MS64 or an MS66 from an MS67, based on verbiage in grading guides. And that applies in the case of comparisons based on images, as well.

 

My challenge still stands.

[MarkFeld]

The conversation started and should continue to be about the vagueness regarding the title 'altered surfaces' not about grading.

 

In reference to the grading question, the resources provided by Toast SHOULD give some indication between a given grade. If I can't tell a MS65 from a 65' Cadi then it’s my ignorance. The resources are readily available and therefore grades do not need to be explained by the grader any further.

 

The same cannot be said about the assignment of 'alter surfaces'.

OK, so what do you propose that the grading companies do in cases when they don't know precisely how a coin has been cleaned or altered? On a practical basis, the only thing I can think of is to note more specifically what part of a coin has been cleaned or altered, when it's other than the entire surface area.

[Dcoin]

The conversation started and should continue to be about the vagueness regarding the title 'altered surfaces' not about grading.

 

In reference to the grading question, the resources provided by Toast SHOULD give some indication between a given grade. If I can't tell a MS65 from a 65' Cadi then it’s my ignorance. The resources are readily available and therefore grades do not need to be explained by the grader any further.

 

The same cannot be said about the assignment of 'alter surfaces'.

OK, so what do you propose that the grading companies do in cases when they don't know precisely how a coin has been cleaned or altered? On a practical basis, the only thing I can think of is to note more specifically what part of a coin has been cleaned or altered, when it's other than the entire surface area.

 

Not all grading companies, just NCS.

 

The same way that we say grading is an opinion, this would be too. It's understandable that not all problems can be identified, but at least provide a little information as to what you think the problem might be. Especially when it's obvious what the issue is.

 

[PaigeAM-migration]

Hello,

I agree, I had several of my coins just returned with "Improperly Cleaned". What does this mean? Can they never be graded? Can they then be "properly cleaned" and resubmitted? Should I resubmit to another grading company? One is my 1900 Lafayette Dollar which I would really like to sell.

 

Thanks for any advice.

 

PaigeAM

[RareSov]

You should consult the guide NGC gives new users

 

It explains the terms and includes pictures.

 

Improperly cleaned basically mean the coin is no longer original, metal has been moved and the coin can never be put into an NGC holder. Cleaning it again will not help.

[MarkFeld]

The conversation started and should continue to be about the vagueness regarding the title 'altered surfaces' not about grading.

 

In reference to the grading question, the resources provided by Toast SHOULD give some indication between a given grade. If I can't tell a MS65 from a 65' Cadi then it’s my ignorance. The resources are readily available and therefore grades do not need to be explained by the grader any further.

 

The same cannot be said about the assignment of 'alter surfaces'.

OK, so what do you propose that the grading companies do in cases when they don't know precisely how a coin has been cleaned or altered? On a practical basis, the only thing I can think of is to note more specifically what part of a coin has been cleaned or altered, when it's other than the entire surface area.

 

Not all grading companies, just NCS. ....

 

Why just NCS? PCGS and NGC use similar vague terms when assigning no-grades.

[Conder101]

whos to say they arent just swamped in work and want to rush orders out?

they will never do this cause then they would have less resubmits. and just like big corp. they are about the money and not the service.

I would disagree they WOULD get a significant number ofthem resubmitted because the owner can't see anything wrong with it. Some would get sent to the other big name service, but they would receive some that got bagged over there so that would even out. And when the bagged coin is moved on down the road, often without the bag attached, the new owner will submit it. And they get paid weither they bag it or not.

 

Not all grading companies, just NCS.

NCS is not a grading service.

[Dcoin]

The conversation started and should continue to be about the vagueness regarding the title 'altered surfaces' not about grading.

 

In reference to the grading question, the resources provided by Toast SHOULD give some indication between a given grade. If I can't tell a MS65 from a 65' Cadi then it’s my ignorance. The resources are readily available and therefore grades do not need to be explained by the grader any further.

 

The same cannot be said about the assignment of 'alter surfaces'.

OK, so what do you propose that the grading companies do in cases when they don't know precisely how a coin has been cleaned or altered? On a practical basis, the only thing I can think of is to note more specifically what part of a coin has been cleaned or altered, when it's other than the entire surface area.

 

Not all grading companies, just NCS. ....

 

Why just NCS? PCGS and NGC use similar vague terms when assigning no-grades.

 

On this point you are right, it really should apply to the PCGS/NGC as well. However, I still hold by the idea that more could be done to rectifying the vagueness of the term.

[PerryHall]

NCS is not a grading service.

 

I thought they put a details grade on their slabs.

[Smilie Puss]

Ok boys and girls time to throw some more wood on the fire!

 

This is another "Altered Surface" tale for the kiddies bedtime.

 

itsnow24u Re: Definition "Altered Surface".

 

Ok. You numismatic experts out there in coinland give it to me with the bark on.

The arguement deals with a coins surface that 'looks different' and no method

or cause can be assigned (see "Understanding No Grade Coins,NGC

publication 2007 Ed.)

 

 

These terms (Re:) at times lead to disappointment and loss in value of certified coins, as well as, resubmissions to grade and loss of grading fees to the third party grading services.

 

The 1881 $5 Half Eagle Proof "Altered Surface" (Superior Auction Lot #234 November 2006 Ex.Windermere Collection.

 

An 1881 gold $5 proof (42 minted) is holdered in in an NCS slab and is labled Proof 'Altered Surfaces'. Coin does not appear to be altered in any definable way and is cracked out and the surface is carefully examined for obvious physical or chemical signs by DIC (Differential Image Characterization) and nothing is found except the surface fields exhibits 'orange peel' texture. Coin is shown to one third party grading services and asked to show where the coin was altered. That grading service points to one area that looks suspecious. The process is repeated to a second grading service and that grading service points to another area (not the same as the first) that looks suspecious. Then, the coin is then taken to a third third party grading and is found to be PR63 and slabbed. Now I don't need to tell you but the price difference between Proof 'Altered Surface'and PR63 is mucho big dollars especially when only 42 proofs were minted. Who gains and who looses when a coin is labeled "Altered Surfaces" and not PR63?

 

 

The question is what the h--- is going on? Whose definition or standard is being used for Alteration or Altered Surface do we believe? Were the two grading services and NCS being conservitive in evaluating the coins condition? If so why? Hint! Suppose you had to buy back that coin if some one could prove it was altered? Aha! Now the light begins to shine. Now supposing the third party grading service had to buy back several or many slabbed coins that were 10 X the value of the 1881 given above. That my friend could be a real big problem for that grading service. So where does that leave the collector or investor? I think you would say on the short end of the stick.

 

So then who would like to define: No Cause Alteration or Altered Surface in the case of the 1881 above? A definition that is complete and concise way so that it is understood by dealers, collectors, investors, and especially, third party grading services. Yes, there are real dilemas such as how many hairlines can fit on the head of a pin? Opps! wrong metaphor? Ok then, what constitutes a proof with excessive hairlines in its field to be cleaned? A judgement call to be sure but how many hairlines? Were these hairlines due to mishandling or deliberate cleaning? Does it matter when it comes to the value of a $100 coin? How about a $10,000 coin or even greater amount? How about the answer from graders: "it doesn't look right", "the (gold) color doesn't look normal", or "it looks different". The collector may get the idea that these people really don't know what the are talking about or they are covering their a-- when it comes to litigation. For those who want to believe in a conspircy theory how about the TPGS reducing the number of rare coins that are certified in a particular denomination such as limited 'proof' productions. Unbelievable, perhaps, because no evidence has been presented.

 

So then my fellow expert numismatist what is one to do?

 

Can we sue (Class Action of course), arbitrate, persuade, cajol, protest, unionize, write a letter to your congressman or Mr. Obama?

 

I would be interested in your logical or rational points of view assuming that you are not a stock holder of a grading service or an auction catalog 'spin' doctor.

 

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone or the greater offense to misspell a word or two (punctuation is not my gift either).

 

 

[Schatzy]

I think the fire already died!!

[Smilie Puss]

Schatzy

 

We shall see. We shall see

 

It all good entertainment wouldn't you say?

 

In fact its a comedy of errors? Are you playing the straight man? Or can you add something constructive to this play?