the difference between 69 and perfect 70 grades????

[michael]

The first thing you have to realize is there is no "perfect" coin. If you think you have one, send it to me and I will find the flaws for you.

If you agree with me, then you probably also agree the word should not be included in any published definitions of what constitutes a 70 grade.

 

Use of the word is idealistic and based on inaccurate perceptions of decades past that maturation of the modern coin market has rendered inaccurate.

 

It is VERY subjective and coins will be graded differently if you cracked your 70's and resubmitted them (but who would do this?) even more so than in lower grades or with classic coinage.

 

http://www.moderncoinmart.com/cart1/home.php

john maben

 

Some things that drop a coin from 70 to 69:

 

spots

hairlines (not die lines)

too many tiny struck thru's (notice I say "too many" because a few if small will still be given the 70 grade, some call these "shiny spots" as they often but not always appear shiny)

toning (depends on the toning, a coin can still get a 70 with toning if light and attractive)

rim defects (I believe NGC may be a hair more tolerant in this area)

surface irregularities deemed detrimental to appearance (as an example about 30-40% of all 2006-W $50 proof buffalo's have a milky haze usually around the periphery)

marks

contact friction on high points (as an example, many proof gold eagles look 70 but if you tilt and use maginification you will see a flat spot or what appears to be rub on the knee, breast area, torch, or eagle)

strike quality and completeness

 

If I took more time to think about it I could probably come up with at least five to ten more....

 

As for the premiums, that's a function of supply and demand and individual taste.

 

Happy New Year to all!

 

 

:news:As for the premiums, that's a function of supply and demand and individual taste.

 

[RareSov]

Most US mint 70's can be spotted very easily from a 69.

 

Simply use a 3x to 5x glass and examine the coins frosty raised areas. Just look for any glints of light appearing as tiny specks.. like seeing a bit of tinsel like a grain of sand, sitting there in the design. A microscopic nick !

 

I can only assume these are caused by used dies which have tiny amounts of residue in the pitted area of the die. The frost is from having that recessed area nice and crisp from sandblasting or whatever, so even the tiniest amount of metal residue would cause a lump, transferring it to a tiny nick in the coins design.

 

So far I have not seen a single modern US mint coin that wasn't graded this way but milk spots on silver would be the other obvious one to look for.

[coinman1794]

Most US mint 70's can be spotted very easily from a 69.

 

Simply use a 3x to 5x glass and examine the coins frosty raised areas. Just look for any glints of light appearing as tiny specks.. like seeing a bit of tinsel like a grain of sand, sitting there in the design. A microscopic nick !

 

I can only assume these are caused by used dies which have tiny amounts of residue in the pitted area of the die. The frost is from having that recessed area nice and crisp from sandblasting or whatever, so even the tiniest amount of metal residue would cause a lump, transferring it to a tiny nick in the coins design.

 

So far I have not seen a single modern US mint coin that wasn't graded this way but milk spots on silver would be the other obvious one to look for.

 

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade. I have never seen a certified MS70 that did not have a couple mint made flaws - all moderns do. The theoretical difference between MS69 and MS70 is in the actual abraisions, or lack thereof.

[RI AL]

I start to run into trouble after MS 63. The difference between a 69 or 70 is WAY over my head.

[MarkFeld]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

[astrostu]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

 

No coin is "perfect." It's simply not possible. The question is under what magnification you limit yourself to finding the imperfections and what types of imperfections you're willing to ignore.

[BillJones]

The difference between PR-69 and PR-70 has two sources.

 

The first is the true difference, which is a tiny injury that separates the two grades. The injury should be virtually undetectable or the coin is not a 69.

 

The second is marketing. PCGS 70 graded coins have often brought high prices. One way to keep that market going is to control the number of 70 graded coins PCGS grades. I know that sounds cynical, but I think it is a PCSG corporate strategy.

 

[MarkFeld]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

 

No coin is "perfect." It's simply not possible. The question is under what magnification you limit yourself to finding the imperfections and what types of imperfections you're willing to ignore.

My belief is that if none are perfect, none should be graded 70. Sadly, it seems that the definition of 70 has been changed/diluted over the years, in order to allow its application to a large quantity of imperfect coins. And to enable grading companies to generate substantial revenue as submitters strive to obtain 70's.

[BillJones]

In my view, MS-70, if it exists at all, is as rare as a 1913 Liberty nickel. PERFECT in every detail for business strike coin is a very high goal in deed. Quite often the production process results in defects from tired dies. And the mint makes no special effort to avoid minor injuries once the coin is struck.

 

In contrast I think that PR-70 is possible. For those coins the mint often* makes the greatest effort to produce the best coins possible of a given design. And after it is struck, the mint makes an effort to avoid injury to the piece.

 

Most modern Proof coins grade at least PR-68. PR-70 coins really aren't that rare.

 

 

* All of us a well aware of carelessly made Proof coins.

[SkyMan]

IMO the difference between a 69 and a 70 is often whether the grader got lucky the night before.

[Dcoin]

I thought Robert Chambers was the only living human that could tell the difference.

[BillJones]

IMO the difference between a 69 and a 70 is often whether the grader got lucky the night before.

 

In that case the guys at PCGS must be a bunch of monks.

[bsshog40]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

I agree here also. I would think the difference would also be if there are any flaws at all that are noticed under a standard (5x) maginification. I'm sure that there are coins out there that may have the slightest of flaw (meaning 1) that really should have never made 70 but as we all know, inspecting coins all day can be tedious at times and the forgetfulness of one small tilt of a coin can be the escape of the tinest flaw that slips by the graders eye.

[rrantique]

IMO the difference between a 69 and a 70 is often whether the grader got lucky the night before.

 

In that case the guys at PCGS must be a bunch of monks.

 

[coinman1794]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

I agree here also. I would think the difference would also be if there are any flaws at all that are noticed under a standard (5x) maginification. I'm sure that there are coins out there that may have the slightest of flaw (meaning 1) that really should have never made 70 but as we all know, inspecting coins all day can be tedious at times and the forgetfulness of one small tilt of a coin can be the escape of the tinest flaw that slips by the graders eye.

 

Mark and Bsshog40,

 

First, I have never seen an MS70 that did not have the flaws previously mentioned. Second, I also do not belive in the MS70 grade. I was merely laying out the facts as I have found them. The current standard seems to be that, as long as the strike thru flecks are well concealed, or at least reasonably indiscrete, the coin will grade MS70.

 

I recently sold a 2008-W silver eagle that I marketed as a "A PQ MS70." And, this oxymoronic statement required that I explain the concept of mint-made imperfections, as well as my opinion of them on MS70 coins; they should not be seen on MS70, period! That is not what happens in reality at the services, unfortunately (as I explained above). They really need a 69.5 grade to denote a seemingly flawless coin that clearly has never been harmed, but was minted with flaws.

[bsshog40]

My personal opinion is if a coin is graded perfect, then it should be perfect. Of course, depending on what type of maginification you use as I mentioned earlier, flaws can and will be found.

[MarkFeld]

I recently sold a 2008-W silver eagle that I marketed as a A PQ MS70

That highlights the problem perfectly. I'm not picking on you, just the industry "standards" for "70".

[coinman1794]

Yes, Mark, it was pretty sad that i could differentiate the nicest of the "perfect" coins...

[RareSov]

Hmm well, actually I was thinking of proofs. I have a Jackson's Liberty here with 100% perfect surface under 5x, not even the tiniest speck in the frosted areas

 

For MS modern coins I am much less experienced. For the record I found these same nicks in my MS silver eagles as well.

[RareSov]

@ PCGS Monks. Man, it all makes sense now lol

[BillJones]

It is interesting to note that among EAC collectors, the grade MS-70 is the ONE grade that has become stricter today than is was when Dr. Sheldon invented it many years ago. In Sheldon's book, he described MS-70 graded coins as follows:

 

For condition 70, the coin must be exactly as it left the dies, except for a slight mellowing of the color. Condition 60 means Mint State condition. Condition 70 means PEFECT Mint State

 

Despite this stringent definition of MS-70, Sheldon listed some MS-70 coins in his condition census information through out his classic book, Penny Whimsy, Today I doubt that there is a single early half cent or cent that would rate an EAC grade MS-70. The reason for this disparity is that Sheldon used only three Mint State grades, 60, 65 and 70. Therefore the really superior coins got the 70 grade even though they were not totally perfect.

[FILTHYHOARD]

I'd have to agree with you Skyman. It depends whether they got lucky or how much they had to drink the night before!

[Treeman]

Basically the same Post ATS, and this was my response there....

 

"I've said it before, and I'll say it again... Take 5 random "70's" and 5 random "69's", mix them up (with grades covered), and nobody, not even the graders at PCGS or NGC, will pick the 5 "70's". I've looked at a lot of these (Kennedys, ASE's, ect.), and the "69's" are sometimes better than the "70's". It's all hype, and it's mostly luck of the draw. Test yourself with random samples, then tell me about these microscopic differences. Besides, "perfect" coins do not exist, so why use "70" as a grade? "69" should be the ultimate.... "

[ant]

i thought when grading they only go so far. like 10x or 16x. the way it sounds they have a microscope to grade these things.

[michael]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

 

(thumbs u

[michael]

The difference between PR-69 and PR-70 has two sources.

 

The first is the true difference, which is a tiny injury that separates the two grades. The injury should be virtually undetectable or the coin is not a 69.

 

The second is marketing. PCGS 70 graded coins have often brought high prices. One way to keep that market going is to control the number of 70 graded coins PCGS grades. I know that sounds cynical, but I think it is a PCSG corporate strategy.

 

(thumbs u

[michael]

Actually, many of those glints of light, and tiny flecks, are mint-made, as-struck imperfections that do not affect the grade

I believe that they should/do affect the grade and that imperfect coins shouldn't be graded "70".

 

No coin is "perfect." It's simply not possible. The question is under what magnification you limit yourself to finding the imperfections and what types of imperfections you're willing to ignore.

My belief is that if none are perfect, none should be graded 70. Sadly, it seems that the definition of 70 has been changed/diluted over the years, in order to allow its application to a large quantity of imperfect coins. And to enable grading companies to generate substantial revenue as submitters strive to obtain 70's.

 

(thumbs u

[michael]

IMO the difference between a 69 and a 70 is often whether the grader got lucky the night before.

 

(thumbs u

[RareSov]

I would happily take that test. I can pick my 69's and my 70's, even on my Australia II coins which only have a tiny spot of missing color on the 69's

[MikeInFL]

"The difference between 69 and perfect 70 grades????"

 

Michael, I agree with much of what you posted above, but answer me this -- what's the difference between a 68 and 69, or even 63 and 64 for that matter? The point being that ALL grading is subjective.

 

Now you could argue the "value" associated with coins that vary by one grade (which quite frankly happens in many coins other than moderns) are not realistic, but isn't every grade truly subjective to begin with, and therefore the 70 grade is just as subjective/artificial/arbitrary as every other grade if you look past the word "perffect" in the description?

 

Just wondering....Mike