CAC Dealers...
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374 posts in this topic

"Hell is paved with good intentions"

 

CAC, in my opinion, is detrimental to the average, knowledgeable collector.

 

1) It is causing a price run-up on coins with the sticker.

 

2) It is causing the grading services to undergrade most of their submissions so that they will meet with CAC's approval.

 

Sure, there's a winning side but that means that there must be a loser, too, to having a winner.

 

Which was my observation in an earlier post.

 

Prove it, or at least show some evidence to support your position.

 

Hand waving and jumping up and down don't make for an effective argument, particularly when my own personal experience is contradictory....Mike

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Gold is a lock upgrade and CAC will treat it as such.

TDN, don't take my question as some kind of attack, but are you saying that there is some sort of "guarantee" that a gold-stickered coin will upgrade upon resubmission? (And no, I have not yet seen a gold-stickered coin in person.)

 

In fact, COLLECTORS are the ones that own the vast majority of nice for the grade coins, too. So any run up in price benefits whom the most? COLLECTORS.

I'm very surprised to see this claim being made. As a collector myself, I can postively state that any "run up in price" for coins is a big time negative for me - definitely not a benefit.

 

Coming from the (hopefully) middle ground, I agree that an "extra set of eyes" can definitely be a benefit for a collector, and I suppose that the CAC sticker represents that. But since I do not know John Albanese, nor have I read any books or articles he may have written on grading coins, I have no confidence whatseover that his particular "extra set of eyes" does me any good. For that matter, I'd never even heard of him until the advent of CAC! On the other hand, there are a number of collectors I know whose additional opinion on a coin is always welcome. (Rick Snow, who I think I understand to be consulting with CAC, is one.)

James, I'm not TDN, but I did stay at a TDN select hotel last night and can answer your question - There is obviously no guarantee about what a grading company will think about or do with a coin that receives a gold sticker. However, such coins will be eligible for CAC bids at the next grade up, sight-unseen.

 

And, while you, personally, might look upon price increases (where applicable) as a negative, plenty of collectors who sell will look at it as a plus. It is not just about YOU :o

;)

 

And sorry, but the fact that you don't know and hadn't heard of John Albanese has nothing to do with his knowledge and abilities. Ask around a little bit of those who know such things - he is generally acknowledged as one of THE top few coin graders there is, period.

 

Which was also one of my points earlier. Albanese was a Founder of one TPG and a Co founder of another . These TPGs are PCGS and NGC though not necessarily not in that order.

 

Nobody has ever answered my question which was " How does one know if a Coin that does not meet the CAC sticker was graded at his time at that specific time of grading?If this was the case then it brings a lot of questions.

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"Hell is paved with good intentions"

 

CAC, in my opinion, is detrimental to the average, knowledgeable collector.

 

1) It is causing a price run-up on coins with the sticker.

 

2) It is causing the grading services to undergrade most of their submissions so that they will meet with CAC's approval.

 

Sure, there's a winning side but that means that there must be a loser, too, to having a winner.

 

Which was my observation in an earlier post.

 

Prove it, or at least show some evidence to support your position.

 

Hand waving and jumping up and down don't make for an effective argument, particularly when my own personal experience is contradictory....Mike

 

I do not believe that they have any proof. It's considered cool on both forums to bash the CAC. When I see people show some proof of these claims, I will be more than happy to consider their viewpoint. Until then, it's meaningless chatter.

 

And where's the proof from the guy who has seen all of these gold stickered CAC slabbed coins?

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Could it be possible that CAC is not stickering the 'Modern" coins because many are uncirculated and in Proof condition as well as other recent attributes and they don't have the opportuntites for the differences in grades as they do for the older circulated coins?This would be another aspect of Money in that the opportunites wouldn't be there as much in the Moderns.

 

Or could it be that it's not actually about the money but more about providing a needed service to the collecting community? Since moderns are less likely to be puttied, lasered, stripped and retoned, enhanced, etc - where is the value added?

 

Face facts - there are plenty of doctored coins in TPG holders. Go view a major auction sometime ... you'll see them by the dozens.

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RYK, I think you and I see eye-to-eye on this topic & I truly don't understand all the bashing -- I have a feeling it is emotional as I see no objective reason for all the consternation....Mike

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If they tag coins with green and gold for "meets" and "exceeds" the grade as a community service, why do they not have orange and red for "overgraded" and "excessively overgraded"? That would be a big (larger, actually) part of a 'community service', I'd think.

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RYK, I think you and I see eye-to-eye on this topic & I truly don't understand all the bashing -- I have a feeling it is emotional as I see no objective reason for all the consternation....Mike

 

Mike,

 

I was initially a supporter and now consider myself neutral toward the CAC. It does not help me much, and it does not bother me much. What I do not like is for people to make false claims, stated as facts, that get repeated over and over again until they are considered truths.

 

In the last six months, I have purchased four coins with CAC stickers and paid exactly what I would have paid without the stickers. (I even peeled the sticker off one just to see how difficult it would be to take off.)

 

I have not submitted any coins to the CAC and do not plan to do so. I have no ownership interest but did eat a lunch at the ANA that ws purchased by John Albanese :D.

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Ravenut, It would not be appropriate of me to reveal the sources of my information w/o their consent concerning how tight the services are. But anyone with their finger on the pulse of the hobby knows that this is true.

 

Who or what is "Ravenut?" I really hope that isn't a reference to me but I can't find anyone participating in this discussion whose name even resembles that.

 

That was unintentional. I wasn't making a pun. :sorry:

 

I went through a back issue looking for an add that proved my claim thoroughly but, alas, I can't find it.

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If they tag coins with green and gold for "meets" and "exceeds" the grade as a community service, why do they not have orange and red for "overgraded" and "excessively overgraded"? That would be a big (larger, actually) part of a 'community service', I'd think.

 

lol - what a waste of sticker money, don't you think? Exactly how long would such a sticker stay on said holder?

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If they tag coins with green and gold for "meets" and "exceeds" the grade as a community service, why do they not have orange and red for "overgraded" and "excessively overgraded"? That would be a big (larger, actually) part of a 'community service', I'd think.

 

lol - what a waste of sticker money, don't you think? Exactly how long would such a sticker stay on said holder?

 

They could engrave it on the plastic if they're so sure. My point is that they're not doing a "community service", otherwise they would be giving out red stickers which would be more important than green or gold. People don't want the risk of possibly getting a "worse-than-grade" judgement, and so CAC makes more money not giving out red stickers. Of course the whole thing is a money issue.

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They could engrave it on the plastic if they're so sure. My point is that they're not doing a "community service", otherwise they would be giving out red stickers which would be more important than green or gold. People don't want the risk and so CAC makes more money not giving out red stickers. Of course the whole thing is a money issue.

 

Engrave the holder? lol They would be sued by PCGS and NGC so fast your head would spin.

 

I'm sorry, but you just have no factual basis for your opinion - it's completely wrong. I was privy to the discussions leading up to the formation of CAC. The reasons CAC was formed were all about coin doctoring and overgrading. The discussions had very little to do with profits. This is first hand knowledge on my part... that does seem to trump your rampant speculation.

 

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Or could it be that it's not actually about the money but more about providing a needed service to the collecting community?

 

So John doesn't care about the modern collecting community? It's not like he's being asked to do something out of his area of expertise like building wheelchairs for the handicapped. He has the opportunity to look at modern coins and confirm that they aren't altered and OK for the grade.

 

 

Since moderns are less likely to be puttied, lasered, stripped and retoned, enhanced, etc - where is the value added?

 

John needs to step in and put a halt to this gradeflation. Back in the late 80's there were extremely few coins in 70 slabs. Today they are everywhere. Clearly gradeflation. How do I know that silver eagle is really a 70 and not a 69 in a 70 slab? I need a sticker to help me out. :wishluck:

 

 

Face facts - there are plenty of doctored coins in TPG holders. Go view a major auction sometime ... you'll see them by the dozens.

 

Pick your (least?) favorite answer:

 

1) And since we have no absolute definitive proof that he graded any of them, he is absolved of all the blame?

 

2) Perhaps these doctored coins meet the standards for the TPG that slabbed them?

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He has the opportunity to look at modern coins and confirm that they aren't altered and OK for the grade.

 

Wouldn't one need to look at thousands and thousands of moderns in order to do this? Speaking for JA, I think I'd rather have a root canal.... lol

 

 

Pick your (least?) favorite answer:

 

1) And since we have no absolute definitive proof that he graded any of them, he is absolved of all the blame?

 

2) Perhaps these doctored coins meet the standards for the TPG that slabbed them?

 

So what? How do either of your points change the value of the service provided?

 

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MR: What premiums do you see CAC coins bringing in the marketplace?

 

JA: They are bringing premiums from what I’ve read although I don’t think most are brining much of a premium. In the first place, “A” and “B” coins bring premiums anyway, always have. We also chose not to hype-up our service bur rather see how the market accepted us. I don’t know of anyone paying big premiums for CAC coins. I think they’re trading for what they’re worth which is exactly what we hope to achieve. The whole notion of CAC was not to make those coins worth a premium but to properly distinguish them from the “C” and lesser quality coins.

 

MR: What makes you so confident to say that gradeflation has ended?

 

JA: I’m not a submitter but if you were to speak to dealers who submit many coins they would tell you that in the last six months or so grading has tightened. I’ve heard the theory that CAC is responsible for that, another is rising prices.

 

 

1) CAC example underpriced 1875 PR63 Trade$--PCGS price = $6500

 

2) 1858 PCGS AU50 CAC sold for $200---PCGS is $300 in AU55

 

3) All coins below are CAC.

 

1892 Morgan Dollar MS-64 PCGS $1,070

1893 Morgan Dollar MS-64 PCGS $2,590

1893 Morgan Dollar MS-64 PCGS $2,540

1899 Morgan Dollar MS-65 NGC $1,100

1902-S Morgan Dollar MS-65 PCGS $2,860

 

These prices are either +/- PCGS price values (which are controversial as it is).

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Engrave the holder? lol They would be sued by PCGS and NGC so fast your head would spin.

 

I'm sorry, but you just have no factual basis for your opinion - it's completely wrong. I was privy to the discussions leading up to the formation of CAC. The reasons CAC was formed were all about coin doctoring and overgrading. It had nothing to do with profits. This is first hand knowledge on my part... that does seem to trump your rampant speculation.

I'm making a point, not being serious about them engraving, so drop the laugh.

 

If "the reasons CAC was formed were all about coin doctoring and overgrading", then why would they not also issue an "overgraded" judgement? Seems reasonable if that's what they're there for. The green tag is completely acceptable as it is. I wholly agree with that as a service, even though one that most people shouldn't need. Even the gold tag is an acceptable idea - but not in the absence of a red tag. If they are making "undergraded" judgements, they should also be making the even-more-important "overgraded" judgements, especially if that's the whole reason for CAC's existance as you say it is.

 

I don't see any "rampant speculation" here, so drop that too. I haven't personally seen any inflation of prices for the green tag yet anyway.

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Engrave the holder? lol They would be sued by PCGS and NGC so fast your head would spin.

 

In the PCGS dealer agreement it states that you will not add any sticker to one of their slabs that indicates the coin is PQ. Doing so is grounds for termination of your dealer agreement with them.

 

I suppose that PCGS could try and kick out all the dealers that submit coins to CAC or sell CAC stickered coins.

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Engrave the holder? lol They would be sued by PCGS and NGC so fast your head would spin.

 

In the PCGS dealer agreement it states that you will not add any sticker to one of their slabs that indicates the coin is PQ. Doing so is grounds for termination of your dealer agreement with them.

 

I suppose that PCGS could try and kick out all the dealers that submit coins to CAC or sell CAC stickered coins.

 

That would add to the entertainment :popcorn:

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He has the opportunity to look at modern coins and confirm that they aren't altered and OK for the grade.

 

Wouldn't one need to look at thousands and thousands of moderns in order to do this? Speaking for JA, I think I'd rather have a root canal.... lol

 

So would I even without any Novocain, but I suspect that he has the overall expertise to do it very accurately right now if he wanted to help the modern collectors.

 

 

Pick your (least?) favorite answer:

 

1) And since we have no absolute definitive proof that he graded any of them, he is absolved of all the blame?

 

2) Perhaps these doctored coins meet the standards for the TPG that slabbed them?

 

So what? How do either of your points change the value of the service provided?

 

What value does the service provide if the person giving that service failed the first time or is out of line with what is acceptable at the TPG?

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but not in the absence of a red tag.

 

I fail to see the value of adding something to a slab that will

 

a) get you sued

b) be removed by the seller

 

What you say might be fine on the blackboard, but just won't work in the real world.

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but I suspect that he has the overall expertise to do it very accurately right now if he wanted to help the modern collectors.

 

I doubt it. PCGS and NGC didn't grade moderns when he was there and Blanchard doesn't sell them to my knowledge. Where would his value added expertise have been formed?

 

 

 

 

 

What value does the service provide if the person giving that service failed the first time or is out of line with what is acceptable at the TPG?

 

 

What value does instant liquidity in the form of a subsequently sight unseen bid add?

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In the PCGS dealer agreement it states that you will not add any sticker to one of their slabs that indicates the coin is PQ. Doing so is grounds for termination of your dealer agreement with them.

 

I've never seen this agreement, and that's news to me.

 

It does beg the question: Why hasn't PCGS kicked out Rick Snow for his Eagle Eye sticker?

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but I suspect that he has the overall expertise to do it very accurately right now if he wanted to help the modern collectors.

 

I doubt it. PCGS and NGC didn't grade moderns when he was there and Blanchard doesn't sell them to my knowledge. Where would his value added expertise have been formed?

 

PCGS graded moderns since day 1, so he must have seen some. NGC also graded some while he was there. Regardless, moderns aren't complicated. I suspect that he could grade them very well.

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but not in the absence of a red tag.

I fail to see the value of adding something to a slab that will

 

a) get you sued

b) be removed by the seller

 

What you say might be fine on the blackboard, but just won't work in the real world.

You said CAC was not formed for money but for a community service. How would a red sticker get them sued but a gold one does not? If it's really just about a service, a red sticker would be much more of a service than a gold one. Regardless if it was removed by the customer, they would be doing a service to the community greater than that of the gold sticker. A customer could then have a second opinion that it is indeed overgraded and take that complaint back to whomever they purchased the coin from. If it's just a service and CAC wasn't formed for money, then why not do this? Because it is about money.

 

What value does instant liquidity in the form of a subsequently sight unseen bid add?

That's exactly what the TPGs are supposed to be there for. Is CAC supposed to supplant them? People might as well self-slab with a guess of a grade and send it to CAC to see if they agree or not.

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but not in the absence of a red tag.

I fail to see the value of adding something to a slab that will

 

a) get you sued

b) be removed by the seller

 

What you say might be fine on the blackboard, but just won't work in the real world.

You said CAC was not formed for money but for a community service. How would a red sticker get them sued but a gold one does not? If it's really just about a service, a red sticker would be much more of a service than a gold one. Regardless if it was removed by the customer, they would be doing a service to the community greater than that of the gold sticker. A customer could then have a second opinion that it is indeed overgraded and take that complaint back to whomever they purchased the coin from. If it's just a service and CAC wasn't formed for money, then why not do this? Because it is about money.

 

What value does instant liquidity in the form of a subsequently sight unseen bid add?

That's exactly what the TPGs are supposed to be there for. Is CAC supposed to supplant them? People might as well self-slab with a guess of a grade and send it to CAC to see if they agree or not.

 

Ask the TPG's why they'd sue over a red sticker but not a gold one. The TPG's do sight unseen bids? That's news to me!

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If "the reasons CAC was formed were all about coin doctoring and overgrading", then why would they not also issue an "overgraded" judgement? Seems reasonable if that's what they're there for. The green tag is completely acceptable as it is. I wholly agree with that as a service, even though one that most people shouldn't need. Even the gold tag is an acceptable idea - but not in the absence of a red tag. If they are making "undergraded" judgements, they should also be making the even-more-important "overgraded" judgements, especially if that's the whole reason for CAC's existance as you say it is.

 

Aren't they doing exactly that when they return a group of coins to a collector sans-sticker?

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PCGS graded moderns since day 1, so he must have seen some. NGC also graded some while he was there. Regardless, moderns aren't complicated. I suspect that he could grade them very well.

 

Doing something 'very well' and being a top tier expert are two different things. And just because a company grades something, doesn't mean that a specific person does. Do you think that PCGS/NGC use a classic coin finalizer on modern coinage? I doubt it.

 

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You said CAC was not formed for money but for a community service. How would a red sticker get them sued but a gold one does not? If it's really just about a service, a red sticker would be much more of a service than a gold one. Regardless if it was removed by the customer, they would be doing a service to the community greater than that of the gold sticker. A customer could then have a second opinion that it is indeed overgraded and take that complaint back to whomever they purchased the coin from. If it's just a service and CAC wasn't formed for money, then why not do this? Because it is about money.

 

With all due respect, that's an awful big leap in logic...

 

Couldn't it also be true that by using red stickers it could limit the number of submissions, and therefore limit the benefit of the CAC as a whole?

 

I can certainly relate to not wanting coins in my collection labeled as "low end", and it would certainly make me hesitate in submitting coins to the CAC if the policy were structured as you suggest.

 

Just wondering...Mike

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What value does instant liquidity in the form of a subsequently sight unseen bid add?

That's exactly what the TPGs are supposed to be there for.

 

It would be very interesting to compare CAC sight-unseen bids with Bluesheet bids....at last check TPGs have no published buy-back policy and a less than stellar record when it does come to that....Mike

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