CAC Dealers...

[Houston Investor]

Everyone enjoying their CAC attack? Used to be a coin had to be in the right holder now its whether it has a sticker? Has the world gotten more complex? Its like those folks pulling for the Spitzer gal with her ugly mug to host a TV show.

 

Outside of 2 or 3 very enthusiastic CAC insiders here, there does not seem to be much enthusiasm for this service in these forums. My take on it is for future planning I will price my non CAC coins at a discount vs Market (Coin World Trends) but my CAC coins will be at full price (or more if necessary to cover cost plus a very slim markup). Will the market may end up with more CAC coins than people who will pay that money for them? The other night, I picked up a 1935-D PCGS MS 65 Texas - CAC for a bid of $250 at Teletrade. With all the juice and allocated costs it comes to $290. Considering its market value is $400 (CWT) it looks like a $395 coin to me. Will someone step up and pay the money? Maybe, as I recently sold a CAC NGC 64 1882-O Dollar for $150. We shall see.

 

[MikeInFL]

OK, that's it! I'm sending in a group of coins to CAC to find out for myself, and I will be completely transparent. Hopefully we'll all be able to learn through this process. Stay tuned....Mike

And what will this prove/disprove?

 

Thanks for the question, Maulemall.

 

I don't think it will prove or disprove anything. However, I hope that with some real examples, we can get past the rhetoric and expose some facts. Because, quite candidly, I see a lot of emotion around this topic and little sound logic based on factual information (outside of CTcollector and Feld's posts), and I hope that people might gain from my being open and honest about the process and results...

 

Perhaps we may learn more about CAC and their "error rate". Perhaps we may learn more about problem coins and how to identify them (but I hope not!). Perhaps we may learn more about grading. Perhaps we'll learn more about the delta between CAC-bid and bluesheet/greysheet.

 

I'm not quite sure where this will lead, but I do hope it will help to replace conjecture and exaggeration with solid examples and logic. Then again, I doubt it, but at least I'll have tried.

[MAULEMALL]

OK, that's it! I'm sending in a group of coins to CAC to find out for myself, and I will be completely transparent. Hopefully we'll all be able to learn through this process. Stay tuned....Mike

And what will this prove/disprove?

 

Thanks for the question, Maulemall.

 

I don't think it will prove or disprove anything. However, I hope that with some real examples, we can get past the rhetoric and expose some facts. Because, quite candidly, I see a lot of emotion around this topic and little sound logic based on factual information (outside of CTcollector and Feld's posts), and I hope that people might gain from my being open and honest about the process and results...

 

Perhaps we may learn more about CAC and their "error rate". Perhaps we may learn more about problem coins and how to identify them (but I hope not!). Perhaps we may learn more about grading. Perhaps we'll learn more about the delta between CAC-bid and bluesheet/greysheet.

 

I'm not quite sure where this will lead, but I do hope it will help to replace conjecture and exaggeration with solid examples and logic. Then again, I doubt it, but at least I'll have tried.

Are you planning to send "troubled" coins or just Regular graded coins..

 

 

[NPCoin]

Of course mistakes will be made - no one has said otherwise. That doesn't mean that a second expert opinion isn't better than just one. It really is that simple.

 

Quite realistically, grading is subjective, period. That means there is no objective truth behind the matter. One person may view a coin MS66 while another disregards "negligible" flaws and grades it MS67, and yet another may see a detraction noteworthy to themselves and grade it MS65. In any case, the grading is subjective, and you WILL have differing opinions. There are NO mistakes in grading, per se. There are, however, flat out lies, misleadings, and deceptions, which are primarily seen in many "self-slabbers".

 

As logic leads, anyone should be able to see that a second, third, fourth, or even fifth OPINION is exactly that: an opinion! The opinion is given based on a basic technical overview and adjusted by subjective opinions on appeal and perfection.

 

I am sure anyone of us could probably ingest a roll of CAC stickers and fluff "opinions" out of our arse all day long, and it will amount the same as putting the stickers on the slab. Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

 

As far as I am personally concerned, CAC is JAMM (Just Another Money Maker). And we all know you should just take jamm, put it with some peanut butter on bread, take it in and digest it for a while, and ultimately, flush it down the crapper where it belongs.

 

I abhor scams, and even the appearance of such, especially in numismatics.

[MikeInFL]

Are you planning to send "troubled" coins or just Regular graded coins..

 

I haven't given it much thought....

 

But I think that I'll likely send in all my slabbed coins that CAC grades as to not sway the result by the sampling (any more than it already will be by being in my collection in the first place).

 

If I don't want to send them all, I'll randomize the choice...

 

Can you think of a fairer/better way?

[MikeInFL]

There are, however, flat out lies, misleadings, and deceptions, which are primarily seen in many "self-slabbers".

...

I abhor scams, and even the appearance of such, especially in numismatics.

 

If you "abhor scams", do you see the value in helping to weed-out some of the "lies, misleadings, and deceptions" which are also, with all due respect, seen in first-tier TPG holders?

 

Or would that just be another "scam"?

 

Just wondering...Mike

[NPCoin]

There are, however, flat out lies, misleadings, and deceptions, which are primarily seen in many "self-slabbers".

...

I abhor scams, and even the appearance of such, especially in numismatics.

 

If you "abhor scams", do you see the value in helping to weed-out some of the "lies, misleadings, and deceptions" which are also, with all due respect, seen in first-tier TPG holders?

 

Or would that just be another "scam"?

 

Just wondering...Mike

 

There is most definitely value in helping to weed out some of the "lies, misleadings, and deceptions". And most definitely, this is also seen in first tier TPG holders as well as amongst the "self-slabbers", though at a much rarer rate. However, there are certain "guarantees" as well with some TPGs with regards to some of these fallacies. These are internal checks and balance.

 

Of course, the TPG charges for such. I do not have a problem with a TPG charging to reconsider if the recipient of a TPG slab disagrees with the assigned grade. However, such charge should not be outrageously charged. And in no certain circumstances should the full price be charged for reconsideration that is charged for initial grading and slabbing. Anyone is free to disagree on this point, but I see it as simply just another money maker.

 

As well, non-qualified agreement or disagreement on grade and assignment by yet another third party, as well is simply just another money maker. Did such a review by another party really accomplish anything other than simply give a piece of mind, or perhaps further complicate the issue if the determination was "not approved"? How is this weeding out the problem?

 

As posted throughout this thread, TPGs sometimes get caught with their hands in the wrong pocket, and some of the better ones have internal checks and retribution in some cases. A respected and knowledgeable gentleman that I have had the honor of acquainting with online for several years made the point at another forum that the grading company standards have not changed throughout the years. Yet, we always hear of grading standards becoming more lax or tightening at different points in a company's growth.

 

I tend to agree with him. The way I see it is our own expectations, and then the "mob mentality", change as changes in the market per se occur. These expectations of ours change our outlook and judgment. Thus, what was MS65 yesterday may now be MS64 tomorrow, and very possibly MS66 next year. This trend trickles its way into the TPGs as the graders may become more affected by market trend. I do not believe the grading standards change, so much as the market trends and world views change.

 

Grading is subjective, which means that there are any number of outside influences that will affect our determination of grade for any given coin at any given time. What may be a gold sticker CAC yesterday, could very well become non-approved today, and even more possibly a green sticker next year. This is plain and simple market influence and is there in grading whether we like it or not...it is simply a fact of how much influence we each individually tolerate.

 

This is another reason for such a diversity in grade opinions. And yet, another reason why simply placing a sticker on a slab, in my opinion, does nothing to help weed-out any of the problems.

 

Very rarely do I ever give a grade opinion without also identifying nearly every aspect of my opinion. From noting rub marks to detraction to a tertiary degree, opinion on color, hairlines, luster, technical issues that should restrict the grade range, et al. Yet I find that the "experts" are so reluctant to even give any form of reasoning behind their opinion. A simple, "I'm the professional, and that's my opinion" will not cut it when I take my car to the mechanic, and it certainly will not cut it when it comes to "professional" opinions on my coins.

 

If CAC really wanted to weed-out the bad seed amongst slabbed coins, and really is not in it as Just Another Money Maker, then why don't they share their knowledge and reasoning behind their opinion? Why did a coin get a gold sticker? Was it because the luster was exceptional for the currently assigned grade, and the apparent marks in a secondary focal area were not so apparent as to lower the grade down? Why was a slab not approved for a normal CAC sticker? Is it because there were not so obvious detractions in the focal area of a toned coin that the initial grader should have warranted against the coin? Was the luster not exceptional enough to warrant the MS68 or MS69?

 

The only way to truly defeat the problems and weed-out these "bad grades" is education and knowledge. The expert "opinionators" (new word we'll make up on the spot) need to educate the community as to why their opinion stands as it does, and the collectors need to take heed and absorb this knowledge and use it in a wise manner suiting a true hobbyist and collector in numismatics.

 

In my opinion, CAC should be empowering their clients with knowledge. This is truly what will weed-out the bad seed in slabs.

[MikeInFL]

Thank you for your response, and I couldn't agree more that education is part of the answer to the underlying problem. However...

 

I have a great deal of trouble believeing in the grading guarantees of the TPGs given what I've heard, what I've read, and the simple fact they are sole arbiter in the case of a dispute.

 

Furthermore, I have a great deal of trouble believeing that gradeflation doesn't exist, or can't be directly attributed to those giving the grades (i.e. the TPGs) or the ones doing the selling (i.e. the dealers) based on what I've seen through collecting since I started 30 odd years ago.

 

Finally -- and speaking directly to your conclusion -- if simply providing another opinion (and an opinion backed up with a sight-unseen bid) isn't valuable enough to justify the JAMM, I understand that a number of collectors have actually discussed the coins themselves with JA to help understand what's wrong with the coins that don't get the sticker (and I hope to be included in this group, and share my results).

 

Again, thanks for your response, and despite disagreeing with a number of your assertions, I think your post makes a heck of a lot of sense. Take care...Mike

 

[stman]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

[MarkFeld]

Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

Except for when you are trying to sell - if you care at all about what you get for your coin(s), other opinions do indeed matter.

[Tradedollarnut]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

[ctrl-migration]

Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

Except for when you are trying to sell - if you care at all about what you get for your coin(s), other opinions do indeed matter.

You mean "CAC is the only opinion that matters"?

[gmarguli]

Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

Except for when you are trying to sell - if you care at all about what you get for your coin(s), other opinions do indeed matter.

 

But how many opinions does a coin need? And please don't say that two is better than one, because three is better than two and four is better than three...

 

And seriously, would you support a company that stickers CAC stickered coins, but only stickers the A coins, not those common B coins?

[MarkFeld]

Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

Except for when you are trying to sell - if you care at all about what you get for your coin(s), other opinions do indeed matter.

You mean "CAC is the only opinion that matters"?

No, I said what I meant, and wasn't thinking about CAC, NGC, PCGS or anyone other than potential buyers when I made my comment.

 

 

[stman]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

[MarkFeld]

Opinions are opinions, and the only one that matters in the end is your own, and nobody else's.

Except for when you are trying to sell - if you care at all about what you get for your coin(s), other opinions do indeed matter.

 

But how many opinions does a coin need? And please don't say that two is better than one, because three is better than two and four is better than three...

 

And seriously, would you support a company that stickers CAC stickered coins, but only stickers the A coins, not those common B coins?

A coin doesn't need stickers or grades. However, some buyers and sellers do.

[Tradedollarnut]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

 

 

The head of the TPG looked right at the coin when I showed it to him and didn't say a word. The auction company wrote a glowing description. Hey - maybe JA made a mistake.

[ctrl-migration]

maybe JA made a mistake.

Yeah, . That could never happen.

[Tradedollarnut]

maybe JA made a mistake.

Yeah, . That could never happen.

 

Why do you post so much hyperbole and absolutes? It really weakens your debating skills.

 

Yes, it could happen. But in this instance probably not.

[IGWT]

So, please tell us what a clorox strip is, so we can know it when we see it.

[ctrl-migration]

Why do you post so much hyperbole and absolutes? It really weakens your debating skills.

 

Yes, it could happen. But in this instance probably not.

It was sarcasm, pointed at the absolutes that CAC can do no wrong and anyone with any doubt or question is simply illogical and completely wrong, regardless.

[stman]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

 

 

The head of the TPG looked right at the coin when I showed it to him and didn't say a word. The auction company wrote a glowing description. Hey - maybe JA made a mistake.

 

 

Yeah, that is pretty funny. Now what would be the Kicker is if you, part owner of Legend Numismatics, an investor, and very vocal supporter of CAC...... made a profit on said doctored coin that CAC turned down, and this said doctored coin got the glowing description as well. Now THAT would be eh?

[Tradedollarnut]

So, please tell us what a clorox strip is, so we can know it when we see it.

 

I have no idea.

[Tradedollarnut]

Why do you post so much hyperbole and absolutes? It really weakens your debating skills.

 

Yes, it could happen. But in this instance probably not.

It was sarcasm, pointed at the absolutes that CAC can do no wrong and anyone with any doubt or question is simply illogical and completely wrong, regardless.

 

The only one in this thread making such silly absolute statements ... is YOU.

[Tradedollarnut]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

 

 

The head of the TPG looked right at the coin when I showed it to him and didn't say a word. The auction company wrote a glowing description. Hey - maybe JA made a mistake.

 

 

Yeah, that is pretty funny. Now what would be the Kicker is if you, part owner of Legend Numismatics, an investor, and very vocal supporter of CAC...... made a profit on said doctored coin that CAC turned down, and this said doctored coin got the glowing description as well. Now THAT would be eh?

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I lost several thousand dollars. Perhaps as much as $4k. Stupid of me for not having a trusted professional also look at the coin before I bid.

[gmarguli]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

 

 

The head of the TPG looked right at the coin when I showed it to him and didn't say a word. The auction company wrote a glowing description. Hey - maybe JA made a mistake.

 

 

Yeah, that is pretty funny. Now what would be the Kicker is if you, part owner of Legend Numismatics, an investor, and very vocal supporter of CAC...... made a profit on said doctored coin that CAC turned down, and this said doctored coin got the glowing description as well. Now THAT would be eh?

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I lost several thousand dollars. Perhaps as much as $4k. Stupid of me for not having a trusted professional also look at the coin before I bid.

 

So that makes it OK to put a doctored coin into the marketplace without disclosing what happened to it?

 

Just trying to find the moral line here.

[Tradedollarnut]

So let's say an investor and a very high profile backer of CAC found out from CAC his coin was doctored. He then dumps it somewhere to somebody else and says something to the effect of..... ah, it don't matter to some people they only care about the label.

 

Tell me how this is "weeding out" the bad coins? And how this is for the better of the "Hobby" as it seems like the status-quo to me. And please, I don't feel like dancing!

 

It got an even more glowing auction description this time.

 

 

Hey, good for you TDN, atta boy!!!!!

 

 

The head of the TPG looked right at the coin when I showed it to him and didn't say a word. The auction company wrote a glowing description. Hey - maybe JA made a mistake.

 

 

Yeah, that is pretty funny. Now what would be the Kicker is if you, part owner of Legend Numismatics, an investor, and very vocal supporter of CAC...... made a profit on said doctored coin that CAC turned down, and this said doctored coin got the glowing description as well. Now THAT would be eh?

 

Sorry to disappoint you, but I lost several thousand dollars. Perhaps as much as $4k. Stupid of me for not having a trusted professional also look at the coin before I bid.

 

So that makes it OK to put a doctored coin into the marketplace without disclosing what happened to it?

 

Just trying to find the moral line here.

 

I dunno. Check with the auction company it was consigned to and see what they say.

 

It was on the marketplace when I bought it, subsequently the TPG had a chance to take it off, & it returned to the same venue as I purchased it. I see no additional harm created by my actions.

[ctrl-migration]

The only one in this thread making such silly absolute statements ... is YOU.

You were quite clear. I haven't had JA personally help me with my multi-million dollar collection, though, so maybe I'm wrong... he might just be infallible and purely charity-driven after all. I'm sure he'll step away as soon as Wall Street shows up.

[Tradedollarnut]

As if.

[gmarguli]

So that makes it OK to put a doctored coin into the marketplace without disclosing what happened to it?

 

Just trying to find the moral line here.

 

I dunno. Check with the auction company it was consigned to and see what they say.

 

It was on the marketplace when I bought it, subsequently the TPG had a chance to take it off, & it returned to the same venue as I purchased it. I see no additional harm created by my actions.

 

Odd definition of altruistic you have.