CAC Dealers...

[Tradedollarnut]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Sounds more like NGC seriously overgraded 3 of the coins. Now if they were to CAC sticker again at 2 points higher, THAT would be newsworthy...

[James_OldeTowne]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

Sounds more like NGC seriously overgraded 3 of the coins. Now if they were to CAC sticker again at 2 points higher, THAT would be newsworthy...

I thought NGC was being particularly tight, partially due to CAC's watchdog efforts ?

[IGWT]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Sounds more like NGC seriously overgraded 3 of the coins. Now if they were to CAC sticker again at 2 points higher, THAT would be newsworthy...

 

We don't know, of course, whether the coins were undergraded to begin with or overgraded to end with. But it's newsworthy nonetheless, because I was hoping -- and I think CAC proponents were, as well -- that the CAC sticker would substantially diminish the incentive to play the crackout game.

[MikeInFL]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

 

 

Do you have pictures and the grades of these coins before and after?

 

I'd be very interested....Mike

[MarkFeld]

We don't know, of course, whether the coins were undergraded to begin with or overgraded to end with. But it's newsworthy nonetheless, because I was hoping -- and I think CAC proponents were, as well -- that the CAC sticker would substantially diminish the incentive to play the crackout game.

Lou, you omitted the part about CAC also potentially impacting the doctoring of coins for up-grades. And in this case, we don't know if the coins were doctored or not. Sight-unseen, though, I'll guess they were over-graded upon re-submission.

 

[James_OldeTowne]

We don't know, of course, whether the coins were undergraded to begin with or overgraded to end with. But it's newsworthy nonetheless, because I was hoping -- and I think CAC proponents were, as well -- that the CAC sticker would substantially diminish the incentive to play the crackout game.

Lou, you omitted the part about CAC also potentially impacting the doctoring of coins for up-grades. And in this case, we don't know if the coins were doctored or not. Sight-unseen, though, I'll guess they were over-graded upon re-submission.

It would seem that if the coins had had their appearance doctored, then CTcollector would not have recognized them, or hopefully would have noted the change in appearance(s).

[numismatica]

 

I just noticed this thread. Could someone please tell me what CAC is? (just kidding)

 

Seriously though, I do have a question regarding the collector above who noticed that his CAC'd coins upgraded after he sold them. Did CTcollector1 lose money at the hands of CAC? If he had received the gold sticker, wouldn't that have prompted him to resubmit the coins himself. Let's face it.....on some coins a 1 or 2 point bump could double the market price of a coin. I would like to hear more details regarding this specific experience. What were the coins? Do you think that the coins were accurately graded before you CAC'd them? How much of a premium did CTcollector1 receive due to the CAC stickers?

[CTcollector1]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

 

 

Do you have pictures and the grades of these coins before and after?

 

I'd be very interested....Mike

 

Here are the 3 NGC 2 point up-grades.

 

25C proof From PCGS 66 to NGC 68CAM (older PCGS holder went for 67+ money at auction). Nice score on the up-grade. I think the coin is 66+ to 67. There is some (minor) chatter in the right facing obverse that in my opinion is too much for the 68 designation. Also, the coin is not cameo. That aside, the coin is awesome in any regard, so maybe its just being ranked for type. I would be more than happy to own it again one day, but not at current levels.

 

$1 proof From PCGS 64 to NGC 66. (recent PCGS holder went for 64++/65 money at auction). Nice score on the 2 point up-grade. The coin is very pretty in hand and would grade a legitimate 66 without the spot removal off ths shin. I can see the coin in a 65 holder. I guess NGC is more forgiving on the spot removal. Nice coin in any regard.

 

5C proof from PCGS 65 to NGC 67. (recent PCGS holder went for 66+/67 money at auction). The coin is very attractive, but I thought a little too soft in the E PLURIBUS UNUM and upper thigh to warrant a 67 grade. Again, a really nice coin in any regard.

 

My conclusion, PCGS is tighter on technical aspects of grading and NGC is a little more forgiving, particularly if the coins have eye appeal. But I am sure most of you knew that already.

 

Thankfully, none of the coins were messed with. (At least as I can tell). They will make great additions to any collection, regardless of the holder. Its too bad the crack out guys got in the middle.

 

 

 

 

[IGWT]

We don't know, of course, whether the coins were undergraded to begin with or overgraded to end with. But it's newsworthy nonetheless, because I was hoping -- and I think CAC proponents were, as well -- that the CAC sticker would substantially diminish the incentive to play the crackout game.

Lou, you omitted the part about CAC also potentially impacting the doctoring of coins for up-grades. And in this case, we don't know if the coins were doctored or not. Sight-unseen, though, I'll guess they were over-graded upon re-submission.

 

Mark, you often rightly remind us that one can't tell if a coin is under- or overgraded based on pictures alone. The fact that you're willing to guess that the coins were overgraded on resubmission -- without seeing even a picture of the coins, much less viewing them in person -- suggests a bit of a bias on your part.

[CTcollector1]

I just noticed this thread. Could someone please tell me what CAC is? (just kidding)

 

Seriously though, I do have a question regarding the collector above who noticed that his CAC'd coins upgraded after he sold them. Did CTcollector1 lose money at the hands of CAC? If he had received the gold sticker, wouldn't that have prompted him to resubmit the coins himself. Let's face it.....on some coins a 1 or 2 point bump could double the market price of a coin. I would like to hear more details regarding this specific experience. What were the coins? Do you think that the coins were accurately graded before you CAC'd them? How much of a premium did CTcollector1 receive due to the CAC stickers?

 

CAC and I are basically on the same page. More details below. I believed I recieved fair value on the coins. The stickers helped.

 

I recieved Gold Stickers and trust me they are lock up-grades. They are remaining in my collection.

[MarkFeld]

We don't know, of course, whether the coins were undergraded to begin with or overgraded to end with. But it's newsworthy nonetheless, because I was hoping -- and I think CAC proponents were, as well -- that the CAC sticker would substantially diminish the incentive to play the crackout game.

Lou, you omitted the part about CAC also potentially impacting the doctoring of coins for up-grades. And in this case, we don't know if the coins were doctored or not. Sight-unseen, though, I'll guess they were over-graded upon re-submission.

 

Mark, you often rightly remind us that one can't tell if a coin is under- or overgraded based on pictures alone. The fact that you're willing to guess that the coins were overgraded on resubmission -- without seeing even a picture of the coins, much less viewing them in person -- suggests a bit of a bias on your part.

Lou, I am admittedly more than a bit biased in that regard. Because I think it's extremely rare that a coin is under-graded by 2 points, if/when I hear that one has upgraded 2 points from the previous grade, that leads me to believe that the new grade indicates the coin has been over-graded. I'm just going by the odds here.

 

And by the way, images likely wouldn't make any difference in my guess. Therefore this really has nothing to do with my preaching that most uncirculated and Proof coins can't be accurately graded on a consistent basis, based on images.

[MikeInFL]

Fascinating info. Thanks for sharing CTcollector....Mike

[gmarguli]

Lou, I am admittedly more than a bit biased in that regard. Because I think it's extremely rare that a coin is under-graded by 2 points, if/when I hear that one has upgraded 2 points from the previous grade, that leads me to believe that the new grade indicates the coin has been over-graded. I'm just going by the odds here.

 

Given the financial implications of overgrading a coin, wouldn't it be more likely that a coin is undergraded by 2 points rather than overgraded by 2 points? Therefore, wouldn't it be more likely that the current grade is correct and the original grade was incorrect?

[MarkFeld]

Lou, I am admittedly more than a bit biased in that regard. Because I think it's extremely rare that a coin is under-graded by 2 points, if/when I hear that one has upgraded 2 points from the previous grade, that leads me to believe that the new grade indicates the coin has been over-graded. I'm just going by the odds here.

 

Given the financial implications of overgrading a coin, wouldn't it be more likely that a coin is undergraded by 2 points rather than overgraded by 2 points? Therefore, wouldn't it be more likely that the current grade is correct and the original grade was incorrect?

Greg, my short answer to your question is no.

 

My longer answer is...... I wasn't implying that a two point up-grade meant the coin was over-graded by 2 points instead of 1. Also, if a grading company under-grades to much, I think that the "financial implications" of losing submissions/business might be even greater than those of over-grading too much. Even assuming that the owner of a coin is knowledgeable enough to determine that it's over-graded, it's not easy to get a grading company to admit that they have over-graded a coin by 2 points and eat/shell out the difference in value. So the practical "financial implications" of such over-grading aren't nearly as great as they should be/are in theory.

[CHABSENTIA]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Which was one of my points earlier that 'What is to say that CAC is incorrectly grading correct grades and not catching incorrect grades?". JA would merely say that " Graders are not perfect and they make mistakes".

[MarkFeld]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

Sounds more like NGC seriously overgraded 3 of the coins. Now if they were to CAC sticker again at 2 points higher, THAT would be newsworthy...

I thought NGC was being particularly tight, partially due to CAC's watchdog efforts ?

Even if that's true, it certainly won't occur for each and every coin/submission.

 

 

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

It certainly COULD be. Or it COULD be that the coins (correctly) weren't deemed to be obviously deserving of higher grades. Please feel free to speculate your heart out.

[James_OldeTowne]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Which was one of my points earlier that 'What is to say that CAC is incorrectly grading correct grades and not catching incorrect grades?". JA would merely say that " Graders are not perfect and they make mistakes".

The situation that CTcollector has introduced would make me even more uncomfortable with the CAC concept. In fact, it's probably worthy of another thread - one that questions CAC's culpability for failing to identify a "lock upgrade" coin. At any rate, lets accept that the purpose of CAC is to identify coins that are "the best of the best". It seems to me that the probability is that a collector of high esteem and excellent grading ability who submits six coins for review, five of which subsequently upgrade, and fully half of the coins upgraded by two points, sure as blazes should get at least a single "lock upgrade sticker"! The odds appear overwhelming in favor of this happening.

 

I must respectfully submit that the failure to identify "lock upgrade" coins could be identified as being just as egregious an error as incorrectly stickering a "bad" coin. I would be mad as a hornet to find that I had just sold three expensive coins at fully two grades below their potential.

 

BUT, I will go out on a limb here and guess that there is no guarantee to protect the consumer in this case of CAC error (and I can't see this issue as anything less than an error).

 

In addition, this seems an awful lot like that old nemesis, whereby a sticker HELPS crackout artists by narrowing down the field of likely upgrade candidates.

[CTcollector1]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Which was one of my points earlier that 'What is to say that CAC is incorrectly grading correct grades and not catching incorrect grades?". JA would merely say that " Graders are not perfect and they make mistakes".

The situation that CTcollector has introduced would make me even more uncomfortable with the CAC concept. In fact, it's probably worthy of another thread - one that questions CAC's culpability for failing to identify a "lock upgrade" coin. At any rate, lets accept that the purpose of CAC is to identify coins that are "the best of the best". It seems to me that the probability is that a collector of high esteem and excellent grading ability who submits six coins for review, five of which subsequently upgrade, and fully half of the coins upgraded by two points, sure as blazes should get at least a single "lock upgrade sticker"! The odds appear overwhelming in favor of this happening.

 

I must respectfully submit that the failure to identify "lock upgrade" coins could be identified as being just as egregious an error as incorrectly stickering a "bad" coin. I would be mad as a hornet to find that I had just sold three expensive coins at fully two grades below their potential.

 

BUT, I will go out on a limb here and guess that there is no guarantee to protect the consumer in this case of CAC error (and I can't see this issue as anything less than an error).

 

In addition, this seems an awful lot like that old nemesis, whereby a sticker HELPS crackout artists by narrowing down the field of likely upgrade candidates.

 

Just for clarification, I submitted to CAC and sold about 40 coins. The ones I mentioned in my original post are just the ones that I noticed coming up for resale.

 

Also - I agree with CAC's original assessment. For my money, I would not buy the coins at the prce levels associated with current holders. Also, I doubt any of the three mentioned above would CAC at their current grades. They all have a subtle technical issue that is obviously a distant second to eye appeal, according to NGC. I don't think you can hold that against CAC.

 

 

[MarkFeld]

For what its worth to this debate, I auctioned off a significant portion of my collection a little while back. Prior to selling, the coins were CAC'd. Since then 6 of the CAC (green sticker) coins have resurfaced as follows;

 

1 at Same Grade

2 at +1 point (PCGS to PCGS & PCGS to NGC)

3 at +2 points (PCGS to NGC)

This sounds like it could be evidence of poor review standards at CAC. Why didn't at least 3 of these coins get gold stickers (lock for being undergraded), and really more like five of the coins?

 

Which was one of my points earlier that 'What is to say that CAC is incorrectly grading correct grades and not catching incorrect grades?". JA would merely say that " Graders are not perfect and they make mistakes".

The situation that CTcollector has introduced would make me even more uncomfortable with the CAC concept. In fact, it's probably worthy of another thread - one that questions CAC's culpability for failing to identify a "lock upgrade" coin. At any rate, lets accept that the purpose of CAC is to identify coins that are "the best of the best". It seems to me that the probability is that a collector of high esteem and excellent grading ability who submits six coins for review, five of which subsequently upgrade, and fully half of the coins upgraded by two points, sure as blazes should get at least a single "lock upgrade sticker"! The odds appear overwhelming in favor of this happening.

 

I must respectfully submit that the failure to identify "lock upgrade" coins could be identified as being just as egregious an error as incorrectly stickering a "bad" coin. I would be mad as a hornet to find that I had just sold three expensive coins at fully two grades below their potential.

 

BUT, I will go out on a limb here and guess that there is no guarantee to protect the consumer in this case of CAC error (and I can't see this issue as anything less than an error).

 

In addition, this seems an awful lot like that old nemesis, whereby a sticker HELPS crackout artists by narrowing down the field of likely upgrade candidates.

James, it appears that without having seen the coins, and despite what CT Collector just wrote in his most recent post, you wish to assume that CAC should have awarded gold stickers. Hopefully you are as or more "uncomfortable" with the idea that PCGS might have under-graded the coins by 1 or more points in the first place. You also have no idea as to whether the CAC stickers helped crackout artists narrow down the field. But as I said before, feel free to speculate your heart out.

[IGWT]

And by the way, images likely wouldn't make any difference in my guess. Therefore this really has nothing to do with my preaching that most uncirculated and Proof coins can't be accurately graded on a consistent basis, based on images.

 

You must be really good if you can guess the grade of a coin without so much as seeing a picture. You're urging others not to speculate while speculating yourself.

[Tradedollarnut]

And by the way, images likely wouldn't make any difference in my guess. Therefore this really has nothing to do with my preaching that most uncirculated and Proof coins can't be accurately graded on a consistent basis, based on images.

 

You must be really good if you can guess the grade of a coin without so much as seeing a picture. You're urging others not to speculate while speculating yourself.

 

Is an educated opinion really speculation?

 

Knowing how the coin industry works, the odds of being able to purchase a significant undergrade are near zero. Therefore, the chances are heavily weighted to NGC overgrading the coins. Yes, CAC is trying to limit this occurrence, obviously not as successful as desired yet.

[IGWT]

Is an educated opinion really speculation?

 

Knowing how the coin industry works, the odds of being able to purchase a significant undergrade are near zero. Therefore, the chances are heavily weighted to NGC overgrading the coins. Yes, CAC is trying to limit this occurrence, obviously not as successful as desired yet.

 

There have been some awfully ugly coins with CAC stickers posted on the forums. Your response typically is to discount the opinion of anyone who hasn't seen the coin in person. Now you defend Mark's speculation that coins have been overgraded -- when he hadn't even seen a picture, much less hold the coin in hand -- as "an educated opinion." You can't have it both ways.

 

I'm just pointing out that speculation doesn't advance the discussion either way. And, to Mark's credit, he admitted that he was guessing. So, yes, I'd say that his comment was really speculation.

[stman]

[Tradedollarnut]

Is an educated opinion really speculation?

 

Knowing how the coin industry works, the odds of being able to purchase a significant undergrade are near zero. Therefore, the chances are heavily weighted to NGC overgrading the coins. Yes, CAC is trying to limit this occurrence, obviously not as successful as desired yet.

 

There have been some awfully ugly coins with CAC stickers posted on the forums. Your response typically is to discount the opinion of anyone who hasn't seen the coin in person. Now you defend Mark's speculation that coins have been overgraded -- when he hadn't even seen a picture, much less hold the coin in hand -- as "an educated opinion." You can't have it both ways.

 

I'm just pointing out that speculation doesn't advance the discussion either way. And, to Mark's credit, he admitted that he was guessing. So, yes, I'd say that his comment was really speculation.

 

In both instances, the odds heavily favor my position. If a CAC stickered coin appears buttugly, the odds are it's the image. If a recently graded & sold coin goes up two points, the odds are it's overgraded.

 

Speculation? Perhaps. But I'll go with those odds.

[just-john]

So lets see sometimes PCGS is plus or minus 2 points

NGC is plus or minus 2 points

CAC is plus or minus 2 points

and it's not about all the money and were all buying the coin not the plastic.Well at least no trees were killed because were just posting the modern form of the circle ---- .

IF the price of oil keeps going up will the plastic used in slabs make the hobby only a rich man game?

[MikeInFL]

My conclusion, PCGS is tighter on technical aspects of grading and NGC is a little more forgiving, particularly if the coins have eye appeal. But I am sure most of you knew that already.

 

Just for clarification, I submitted to CAC and sold about 40 coins. The ones I mentioned in my original post are just the ones that I noticed coming up for resale.

 

Also - I agree with CAC's original assessment.

 

CTcollector,

 

Having had the chance to use the CAC's services yourself, would you care to comment on a) their accuracy, b) the value you see in the sticker, and c) any lessons learned.

 

I'd be very interested in your perspective.

 

Thanks in advance...Mike

 

 

[MarkFeld]

Is an educated opinion really speculation?

 

Knowing how the coin industry works, the odds of being able to purchase a significant undergrade are near zero. Therefore, the chances are heavily weighted to NGC overgrading the coins. Yes, CAC is trying to limit this occurrence, obviously not as successful as desired yet.

 

There have been some awfully ugly coins with CAC stickers posted on the forums. Your response typically is to discount the opinion of anyone who hasn't seen the coin in person. Now you defend Mark's speculation that coins have been overgraded -- when he hadn't even seen a picture, much less hold the coin in hand -- as "an educated opinion." You can't have it both ways.

 

I'm just pointing out that speculation doesn't advance the discussion either way. And, to Mark's credit, he admitted that he was guessing. So, yes, I'd say that his comment was really speculation.

Lou, the person who owned the coins (meaning he did SEE them in hand) has indicated that he thought CAC was accurate, despite the fact that he is aware some of them later up-graded. He said:

Also - I agree with CAC's original assessment

That is really all we have to go by, other than guessing, speculation, etc.

[MikeInFL]

...but the guessing, speculation, and hyperbole is much more fun.

 

In all seriousness, I was hoping that CTcollector's response to my post above might help temper some of this...Mike

[MarkFeld]

Steve, instead of your "circle the wagons" picture/point, why not join the debate and illustrate where one of those who are supposedly circling the wagons (as in TDN or myself) said something that was incorrect?

[Oldtrader3]

Personally, after nearly (20) years of submitting and buying/selling several hundred PCGS coins, I have the feeling (in the pit of my stomach) that PCGS has two discrete grading standards. One conservative standard for Joe Schmoo (like me) and another, one grade more, less conservative standard for large submission dealers or famous collections. Mind you, I can not prove this and grading is certainly subjective, but my submissions to PCGS always come back one grade or so, less than what I buy, many times, from dealers or see at shows on dealer's tables. Why is this so, I ask (rhetorical question)?

 

Admittedly, this is ok if I am buying coins from people like me and easier when I sell my own personal PCGS (undergraded) coins, but not so great when I buy coins from large dealers or famous collections. Now, tell me I'm crazy but this is my well observed take on all these years of personal collecting and dealing with PCGS coins. If CAC can end this small collector grading discrimination through PCGS, I'm all for it!

 

NGC is now somewhat stricter (recently), I've noticed, but it seems to be across the board!